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  • Current Events & Politics Moderators: deficiT | tryptakid | Foreigner

US Politics The trump impeachment thread

Trump’s team could have figured out that this was coming out because someone on his team vetted the book (not him, but directed by him) and leaked it to mitigate the eventual impact by flooding the news cycle. It’s Trump 101.

I’m guessing Trump can request anything he wants, including an advance copy of Bolton’s book from the NSC.
 
But TLB, don't you think it's bullshit that Trump's administration would block subpoenas/requests for all first-hand witnesses, and then complain about how there is no first-hand evidence and use that as a basis for discrediting the whole thing? Doesn't that seem fishy as hell? They're trying as hard as they can to prevent anyone who talked directly with Trump about it from testifying. Wouldn't they want someone to testify if he was innocent, and put this to rest?

As for what they DO have, they have a lot of testimony from people who overheard, people who were on the call who found his conduct troublesome, people who found the back-alley channel through Giuliani to be very fishy, and so on. There are a lot of corroborating testimonies and evidence that, when put together, paints a pretty powerful picture. I guess if you think they're all lying, you might think there's nothing, but there is certainly plenty to go on just based on what they did find. I've spent a lot of time following this stuff and actually reading things (Mueller report) and listening to the live hearings, and not just taking in whatever distilled and biased synopsis attempts to summarize hours and hours of information into a few brief statements. Maybe you have, too, I don't know. The picture I have seen certainly doesn't tell me that the Dems have nothing to go on and that this is a witch hunt. It seems glaringly obvious that it stinks over there in the White House. Is the media overblowing it? Yes. Does that mean this shouldn't be happening? No.
 
Does that mean this shouldn't be happening? No.
I think the impeachment proceeding itself was nauseating from both sides, but I agree that it needed to happen based on the evidence, of which there’s plenty. Just Ambassador Sondland was plenty, after he was ‘reminded’ by the testimony of others about his conversations with Trump 😕.
I don’t really like or agree with Bolton, but I think he’ll tell the truth, particularly under oath, unlike a lot of Trump toadies. Same with John Kelly.
 
I hope we get to hear from Bolton under oath. We likely won’t unless the House does it, but we’ll see. Either way, his book is going to be scrutinized.
I wonder if Trump regrets booting Bolton so unceremoniously, regardless of whether Bolton quit (as he claimed) or Trump fired him (as he claimed).
 
I hope we get to hear from Bolton under oath. We likely won’t unless the House does it, but we’ll see. Either way, his book is going to be scrutinized.
I wonder if Trump regrets booting Bolton so unceremoniously, regardless of whether Bolton quit (as he claimed) or Trump fired him (as he claimed).

Seems like trump always says he fired everyone who quits. He's a petty liar.

Happened with mattis too.
 
But TLB, don't you think it's bullshit that Trump's administration would block subpoenas/requests for all first-hand witnesses, and then complain about how there is no first-hand evidence and use that as a basis for discrediting the whole thing? Doesn't that seem fishy as hell? They're trying as hard as they can to prevent anyone who talked directly with Trump about it from testifying. Wouldn't they want someone to testify if he was innocent, and put this to rest?

On the one hand, I can see using Exec Priv to prevent anyone from testifying and getting caught in a position of stating something they shouldn't that incriminates him. On the other hand, bigger than Trump, I see ANY president preventing anyone from testifying and exposing confidential information accidentally = the purpose of Exec Priv. And before any of this, I see the role of the president as setting international policy, not congress, as presidents have historically had these conversations with other world leaders. And, that long history of presidents having 'talks' with world leaders, largely have not been shared outside his group (Exec Priv). I'm willing to bet many presidents have said or done worse, we just don't know about it, and the Dems are trying to turn HIS job of policy making into an impeachable offense, which it isn't.

Is he hiding behind Exec Priv to cover his ass? I'm sure he is. Regardless of who is president, is it important to preserve the ability of that role to exercise foreign policy with some degree of confidentiality? Absolutely, in my opinion.

As for what they DO have, they have a lot of testimony from people who overheard,

A lot of second (or third, hello whistleblower!) hand info. The closest to the truth would be the two people on the call = Trump (we know where he stands, it was a PERFECT call!) and Zelensky (repeated no pressure, no knowledge of withholding, has not done or announced any such investigation). So, FIRST hand knowledge says this is moot. Second best is transcript, which indicates this is moot. That's why we're hearing Dems pull out hearsay and reaching.
 
I hope we get to hear from Bolton under oath.

Was Bolton on the call, heard something different, and can (void Exec Priv) testify to this? Or is Bolton's words reflecting any of Trump's comments in other conversations about what he'd like to do? Because, we have 3y worth of Trump indicating things he'd like to do that are consistently absurd and never acted upon.

If Bolton gets called, expect a Biden to get called. Joe can play Exec Priv as well, given he was working under Obama at the time (would that be obstructing the Senate?). Hunter, not so much. And that part of the trial would possibly expose valid reasons for Trump's request for investigation into US-Ukraine corruption. Blowing Joe out of the race is a side effect, but is it one the Dems want to risk (maybe, if they want to push Bernie forward).
 
This was posted in response to the Lemon v Lemon clip (I posted it to the Media bias), but this one fits impeachment discussion better as it is Starr v Starr

 
Was Bolton on the call, heard something different, and can (void Exec Priv) testify to this? Or is Bolton's words reflecting any of Trump's comments in other conversations about what he'd like to do? Because, we have 3y worth of Trump indicating things he'd like to do that are consistently absurd and never acted upon.

If Bolton gets called, expect a Biden to get called. Joe can play Exec Priv as well, given he was working under Obama at the time (would that be obstructing the Senate?). Hunter, not so much. And that part of the trial would possibly expose valid reasons for Trump's request for investigation into US-Ukraine corruption. Blowing Joe out of the race is a side effect, but is it one the Dems want to risk (maybe, if they want to push Bernie forward).
I just have to ask: do you truly believe Trump was trying to root out corruption by going after Biden or Burisma? Do think he opposes nepotism?
Also, Bolton has information on Trump’s intent/state of mind, which addresses a level of criminality in an act, something the Republicans have been whining about recently.
 
I just have to ask: do you truly believe Trump was trying to root out corruption by going after Biden or Burisma?

I can see it either way (disrupt Biden's campaign OR rooting out corruption). However, given there does appear to be corruption (and there is a history of it in Ukraine) in comparison to Trump's camp doing any efforts against any of the other Dem candidates (I'm not aware of any dirt digging done on any of them by conservatives...heh, they seem to be letting the Dems do it to each other in the primaries), I am inclined to believe more the intent is, and was, rooting out corruption.

Do think he opposes nepotism?

Wholly separate topic. To answer directly, no, I don't think he opposes it as evidenced by his enlisting family in his White House staff. It does beg the question, however, if he has done so to have people he trusts vs pump money into their pockets. To date, there hasn't been many people in the White House he could trust. Additionally, if it were being done to pump money into their pockets, you can guarantee both Dems and MSM would be all over it, no?

Because you're trying to extend it to the Biden/Burisma situation, I'll ask you - do you believe a) Gov't officials have historically gotten their family monies by using their political power (ie Biden's pressure on Ukraine and Hunter's position on boards where he was unqualified), and b) that this is acceptable?

Also, Bolton has information on Trump’s intent/state of mind, which addresses a level of criminality in an act, something the Republicans have been whining about recently.

"Intent/state of mind" ... wut? I have intent to eat cake later....do I gain the weight if I end up not eating it? While intent can show a lean, it is not evidence of a crime. I believe this is a pretty well accepted fact, no? Isn't that what a trial is about = evidence, not intent, of wrongdoing? Isn't that what an impeachment should be about = actual wrongdoing, not intent? So, again we come back to what does Bolton provide that the House Dems have not already accepted as factual wrongdoing in their vote?
 
Additionally, if it were being done to pump money into their pockets, you can guarantee both Dems and MSM would be all over it, no?
Why do you think they want Trump’s taxes and records for the Trump Organization? There’s been some speculation about Kushner’s real estate dealings as well. In the MSM and by government watchdogs that everyone ignores.

a) Gov't officials have historically gotten their family monies by using their political power (ie Biden's pressure on Ukraine and Hunter's position on boards where he was unqualified), and b) that this is acceptable?
a) I have no idea what Hunter Biden was doing for Burisma. Sometimes being well-connected (not just to your father) is the job. Being on a board doesn’t require one to be an expert in what a company does. Nor does being a CEO, for example.

b) I don’t like it, but it’s the way the world works. I accept it. But if we’re going to be generous with benefit of the doubt, I’d think the Bidens get a pass too.

I’ll address the rest later. IRL beckons.
 
There are three outstanding questions of import for most people about the impeachment.
1) Does whatever happened rise to level of impeachment? (GOP says no, regardless of the fact that what happened isn’t clear)
2) How much did Trump know about Ukraine aid being halted? In other words, did the directive come from him? There are emails and testimony from the impeachment proceeding to support that it was Trump, but Bolton could speak directly to this question.
3) Why was the Ukraine aid halted? Was it to root out corruption or for political reasons? Bolton went to Trump directly to speak about the issue, so presumably he could directly address this issue as well.

If you don’t answer yes to #1, then #2 and #3 are important. I can find some more pointed legal references about intent (#3), but if you don’t think Trump should be impeached for halting the Ukraine aid and why he did it, it’s irrelevant.
 
(not written by me):

Let's see if you understand basic logic. Trump is being impeached because he withheld military aid to the Ukrainians in order to force the Ukrainians to investigate Joe Biden and his son for corruption. Did the Ukrainians get the military aid? Yes. Did the Ukrainians investigate Biden and his son for corruption? No. So, what crime has been committed? Answer: no crime has been committed. Now, either you accept this logic, or there is no hope for you, in which case I request that you unfriend me immediately. I am bumping up against Facebook's 5000-friend limit, need to clear some deadwood, and don't have the time to do so manually.
 
(not written by me):

That's a really bad argument. It seems like an argument that if I try to bribe a cop, and the cop refuses to take the bribe, no bribe happened. That's incorrect.

Seriously, try it and court and see how far you get.
 
There was a vote and the impeachment trial will close with no witnesses. Senators Susan Collins of Maine and Mitt Romney of Utah broke Republican ranks and voted for witnesses with Democrats.
 
I just can't understand how Repubs could have literally blocked the requested witnesses, then complained that the Dems had no witnesses, and then voted to acquit without the ability to call said witnesses. Additionally they disallowed relevant documents known to exist from being shared. If that isn't obstruction, I don't know what is. But anyway, no surprise, just the expected disappointment. I listened to a lot of the senate debates, and I forget who it was who said it but they made a really good point that in no court of law in the country would consider acquittal without allowing any evidence or witness testimony. The fact that they so stridently obstructed allowing any direct evidence from being considered speaks volumes, as if he didn't have anything to fear, he'd have been calling loudly for the evidence that he was innocent to be brought forth.

The Repubs had one good point I really agreed with, which is that we are in danger of presidential impeachment becoming commonplace and used as a weapon. Of course in this case it is abundantly clear to me and many others that Trump's conduct makes Clinton's look like absolutely nothing (lying in the oval office about getting a blowjob, give me a break), and even Nixon's look mild. Oh well.

The whole thing just goes to show how toxicly partisan our government/country has become. The only good I can see coming from this is that according to polls, around 75% of Americans on all sides agreed with allowing further evidence, and hopefully they will be disappointed and disgusted with their elected senators for so blatantly voting for obstruction and maybe we'll see a wave of fresh blood next round of senate elections.
 
I don't agree with the Republican argument about impeachment becoming too common. Despite Trump fans screeching about how "every President has done something like this!", in reality I have not heard of one single action by any President which is similar, except of course Watergate. Furthermore, impeachment is in any case very difficult, which is enough of a structural preventative that we don't need to worry about precedent that much.

I also think that the idea that Trump honestly cared about corruption is absurd. Pretty much everyone I talked to who thinks there was some corruption involving Hunter Biden's job:

- did not look at Hunter Biden's resume or consider that even minor US government experience actually looks really good for government jobs in allied poor countries

- refuses to read the media reports which analyzed this particular incident and found no evidence of wrongdoing (poisoned-well types)

- has completely ignored the political context in Ukraine regarding the election of Zelensky

Basically the only way you could possibly believe that Joe Biden influenced Hunter's job application at Burisma at this point is if you somehow care a lot about corruption in Ukraine but also refuse to actually learn anything about corruption in Ukraine, that is, you are a finger-in-ear la-la-la-I-can't-hear-you type. There's no reason for me to make an argument for this; the evidence is all freely accessible, and the only pigeons left are the ones who refuse to read it.

Fortunately, however, several Republican Senators are not finger-in-ear toddlers, but instead teleological-suspension-of-the-ethical Kierkegaardians. This position, sadly, is completely defensible and possibly even correct. For example, the wildly conservative Marco Rubio, who has supported Trump from day one, admits that Trump tried to manipulate the election and that it was impeachable:


"Just because actions meet a standard of impeachment does not mean it is in the best interest of the country to remove a President from office," Rubio said.

The shithead from my home state is technically correct, the most nauseating kind of correct. Murkowski and Collins gave some version of this argument as well. I wouldn't be surprised to find that many Republicans secretly fear a Pence Presidency. That's not surprising, given that some of Pence's friends think he's the reincarnation of Constantine I:


And, as the just-published book, The Shadow President: The Truth About Mike Pence, by award-winning journalists and authors Michael D’Antonio and Peter Eisner, states: “For most of his life Pence had believed he was guided by God’s plan. He believed that the Lord intended for him to halt the erosion of religious conviction in the United States. And though he avoided stating it himself, many of his evangelical friends believed Pence’s ultimate purpose was to establish a government based on biblical law. That was what they called Christian Dominionism.”

Fueling this hypothesis is the rabid opposition of Rand Paul to impeachment. Rand Paul's moves in this arena (including vilifying the likely irrelevant Eric Ciaramella) have been absolutely disgusting, but I have to admit that he's close to the administration and he probably knows more about Mike Pence than do any of the other anti-war Senators.

So I guess I won't lose any sleep under this manifestly unjust political outcome, given that, at least, reality has been preserved in the Senate, and a bipartisan majority (if we count Rubio, Murkowski, Romney and Collins) admits that Trump abused his power and violated his duties as President.

Fascism begins when the real world is shut out, and it still has its toe in the door. That is good news.
 
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