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US Politics The trump impeachment thread

Fascinating, because if Trump loses the religious right, he loses, no doubt. Pence is supposed to keep them in line.
Trump probably can’t expand his base very much, and he has to keep what he has.
Trump’s people have to be panicking. 🤔

The idea that the religious right supports trump just goes to show how naive, hypocritical, blind, the religious right as a whole is.

Trump is almost certainly an atheist. I don't believe for a second that he actually believes in God, or in any power superior to himself.
 
Even more than that, he has a long history (and a current presidential history) of deeply immoral behavior, much of which isn't even argued against (for example, that he had an affair with a porn star while his wife was giving birth to their son, and then paid her hush money).

I'm not saying other presidents haven't done as bad or worse than that, I'm saying that it's massively hypocritical for the religious right to support such a man.
 
Even more than that, he has a long history (and a current presidential history) of deeply immoral behavior, much of which isn't even argued against (for example, that he had an affair with a porn star while his wife was giving birth to their son, and then paid her hush money).

I'm not saying other presidents haven't done as bad or worse than that, I'm saying that it's massively hypocritical for the religious right to support such a man.

You can probably be a sinner and get away with it provided you otherwise support the goals of the religious right, and admit to those failings, that doesn't surprise me.

What does surprise me a little is that a man who's so obviously not a believer at all like trump. Can retain such support.

It makes me think that the religious right, is far more right than it is religious. Which is to say that religion is secondary to the politics. The political views come first, with religion used to justify them, rather than the other way around.

But then, I'd also say it's incongruent to claim to be a follower of christ, and embrace some of the more hateful and intolerant positions of the far right at all.

Let he who is without sin and all that.
 
This article is chock full of data, but I was most interested in a majority of federal workers supporting impeachment and 1/3 being less likely to report wrongdoing if they saw something wrong because of the way Trump harangued the whistleblower.

Link to full survey at end of article.


A majority of federal employees support impeaching President Trump, according to a new survey released hours before the House votes to take that step for just the third time in U.S. history.

Just 43% of federal workers oppose impeaching Trump, compared to 52% who support it, according to the survey conducted by the Government Business Council, the research arm of Government Executive. Top-ranking civil servants at the GS-13 level and above are more likely to support impeachment, with 57% in favor compared to 46% of those at the GS-12 ranking or below.

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Not all feds who oppose the president support impeaching him: Just 37% of employees approve of Trump, compared to 55% who disapprove. One-in-five Republican federal workers gave Trump negative marks.

About nine in 10 Democratic feds support impeaching Trump, compared to about half of independents and 19% of Republicans.

Half of respondents said the rhetoric surrounding the impeachment process, specifically on whistleblowers and the “deep state,” has had a negative impact on their perception of their own safety. Two-thirds of Democratic feds have felt concerned for their safety during the impeachment process, compared to slightly more than one-third of Republicans. One-in-three feds said they are now less likely to report wrongdoing to the appropriate authorities due to attacks by Trump and congressional Republicans on the whistleblower whose filing kicked off the impeachment proceedings. Another 16% said they are now more likely to blow the whistle.

Trump told Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelensky that former U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Marie Yovanovitch was “going to go through some things,” according to a transcript summary released by the White House of a call between the two leaders. He later accused those who supplied information to the whistleblower of being spies, saying we “used to handle it a little differently than we do now.” Several witnesses who testified at the impeachment hearings said the lack of support from leadership has led to declining morale at the State Department and elsewhere. House Democrats’ official impeachment report cited Trump for sidelining and threatening career employees.

One-third of federal employees also said the impeachment process has hurt morale in their workplaces, compared to 8% who said it has boosted morale. Feds who oppose impeachment were more likely to say the process has damaged morale. Nearly two-thirds of feds said the process had worsened the public perception of the civil service, with the rest saying it has had no impact. Four in five Democratic respondents said it has created a worse perception of the civil service.

Among Democratic federal employees, about half are at least moderately satisfied with the field of candidates running for president. About one-quarter are not satisfied. Nearly half have not yet decided which candidate they are supporting, far surpassing those who have not made a decision among the general public. Former Vice President Joe Biden received support from 15% of the Democratic respondents; South Bend, Indiana, Mayor Pete Buttigieg received 12%; and Sen. Elizabeth Warren, Mass., received 8%.

The survey was sent to a random sample of Government Executive Media Group subscribers from Dec. 4 through Dec. 15. It has a margin of error plus or minus 4%. See the full survey results here.
 
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The idea that the religious right supports trump just goes to show how naive, hypocritical, blind, the religious right as a whole is.

Trump is almost certainly an atheist. I don't believe for a second that he actually believes in God, or in any power superior to himself.
I'm sure allot know he's a fake christian bound for hell but I guess they think the fact he's passing anti abortion bills makes all the other stuff worth putting up with.

Funny how they tried to claim he suffered worse than jesus during his impeachment hearing; imagine how republicans would act if dems said that about Clinton.

He actually went of on a house member just doing her job because she voted against him. He seems to be under the impression that comforting someone who lost a loved one is a favor not just a normal national thing you automatically do. Then he mocked her dead husband claiming he might be in hell on stage at a rally.

You can say his words and behavior don't matter but anyone with that little impulse control, self awareness, and understanding of how humanity and the world works has no place being in charge of our nukes and armed forces or being the leader of a super power. I sure as hell don't want to live in a world ruled by china and russia.
 
I'm sure allot know he's a fake christian bound for hell but I guess they think the fact he's passing anti abortion bills makes all the other stuff worth putting up with.

Bingo. My aunt and cousin are part of the evangelical religious right. Their support of Trump (and the republican party) is 100% based on abortion, they are single-issue voters as are many on the religious right. My aunt said to me and my mom that she would never vote for a democrat and although she thinks Trump is a bad guy, she will vote for him again because at least he's anti-abortion.

Then she said he is an imperfect leader like some Biblical king who was imperfect and was appointed by god to show us something or other, which was where she totally lost me.

The thing about the religious right is that the right has managed to so thoroughly co-opt religion that religion and politics are indistinguishable to them. Being republican is the same as being christian to them so the idea of voting anything but republican and of supporting positions other than the right is akin to blasphemy and not to even be considered.

Funny how they tried to claim he suffered worse than jesus during his impeachment hearing; imagine how republicans would act if dems said that about Clinton.

Lolwut? Yeah he definitely would have suffered less had he been nailed to a cross and bled to death.
 
Presumably they're talking about the impeachment itself rather than the repercussions. It's still crap though.

Nobody has arrested trump yet, nobody has assaulted him.

The only thing trump has in common with Jesus is that he too thinks he's a messiah.
 
fuck politics, they are all the same, zero difference no matter whos in charge, they are all as corrupt as each other

they all take your money, persecute you with stupid laws that only benefit them and make you do things you dont want to do

but coming from someone who doesnt live in the US, yeah he should be impeached, you can clearly see he is as guilty as hell, i dont know why he denies it or why people think hes innocent, hes clearly not
 
In addition to the trials of Jesus, Trump’s impeachment was compared to Pearl Harbor.
See for yourself:


edit: the moment of silence for Trump voters was also hilarious.

When his turn came to speak on the House floor on Wednesday, Johnson called on members “to rise and observe a moment of silent reflection” for Trump’s voters. Johnson and about a dozen of his Republican colleagues then rose from their seats and stood, their heads bowed, for about 25 seconds. Silently.

Apparently, it was a moment of reflection, per Johnson’s outrage over being mischaracterized...😆

 
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and most recently


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I still love the time Christians laughed at trump for calling it "two Corinthians". And his pathetic attempts to justify it.


And I love that he somehow thinks that pointing out he was just reading the notes he was given by someone else somehow makes it any better. When that's just all the more proof that he is NOT a serious Christian.

Such a straight shooter.

Honestly, if there's one big thing that gives me reservations about getting rid of trump. It's that I fear doing so is actually going to turn out to be a mistake in the end.

Trump is totally corrupt, but he's also totally incompetent. I wonder if it might not be better for the country in the long run for him to remain in office as long as possible, and then only implode right at the end.

So then the country can in future be in a better position to stop a potentially much more competent corrupt leader in the future.

Cause trump may be totally corrupt, but he's also so narcissistic and incompetent, I think it all falling apart on him is only a matter of time.

I also question if it might not have been better to wait for a more serious crime to get him on. Because the more trying to get rid of him fails, the more it looks like a witch hunt, the harder it may be in the long run.
 
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My mom is very Christian, but extremely liberal about it, she is horrified by the Evangelicals (which includes her sister). In fact she doesn't even believe in organized religion, but she still is very active in her church because she believes she can do much more good for people spiritually by working within it (and she loves her church community too).

Anyway the other day we were talking about she brought up this article and we talked about how good it is that at least someone in that world is calling it how it is. There is an incredible amount of hypocrisy, self-delusion and outright political manipulation via appeals to religion involved in Evangelicals supporting Trump. It's nuts.
 

Pelosi's Proposal to Withhold Senate Trial Is Unconstitutional
By Alan Dershowitz
Thursday, 19 December 2019 02:40 PM


GetFile.aspx

U.S. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., strikes the gavel after announcing the passage of article II of impeachment against President Donald Trump, Dec. 18, 2019, on Capitol Hill in Washington. (Patrick Semansky/AP)

Now that the House has impeached President Trump, the question is what happens next. Speaker Pelosi has suggested that she may withhold the articles of impeachment from the Senate as part of a negotiating tactic. This ploy drives from an idea put forward by my friend and colleague Laurence Tribe, who has proposed that the Senate not conduct a trial — at least not now.

He would withhold the trial until the Senate agreed to change its rules, or presumably until a new election put many more Democrats in the Senate. Under his proposal, there might never be a Senate trial, but the impeachment would stand as a final and permanent condemnation of President Trump.

It is difficult to imagine anything more unconstitutional, more violative of the intention of the Framers, more of a denial of basic due process and civil liberties, more unfair to the president and more likely to increase the current divisiveness among the American people. Put bluntly, it is hard to imagine a worse idea put forward by good people

Denying President Trump and the American people a trial in the Senate would constitute a variation on the title of my new book, "Guilt by Accusation."

President Trump would stand accused of two articles of impeachment without having an opportunity to be acquitted by the institution selected by the Framers to try all cases of impeachment. It would be as if a prosecutor deliberately decided to indict a criminal defendant but not to put him on trial.

This would deny him the right to confront his accusers and to disprove the charges against him. Tribe himself uses a variant of this analogy.

He hypothesizes a situation in which a prosecutor indicts a criminal defendant and then discovers that the proposed trial would be been tainted by jury tampering. Would the prosecutor then not have the right to withhold the trial until such time as an untainted jury could be seated?

As a law professor who has employed hypotheticals for more than half a century, this one fails on its face. A true analogy would be not to a prosecutor who discovered after indictment that the jury was tainted, but to a prosecutor who believed before the indictment that there was no possibility of a fair jury trial.

A prosecutor who indicted under such circumstances — not intending to bring the defendant to trial — would be violating his duty and denying the defendant his fundamental rights.

An even better analogy would be a prosecutor who knew that both the grand jury and the petit jury were tainted by preexisting prejudices: the grand jury was biased against the defendant and the petit jury in his favor.

Nonetheless, he went forward with an indictment by the grand jury that was biased against the defendant and withheld a trial by a petit jury that was biased in the defendant’s favor.

Tribe’s analogy fails for another reason as well.

Tribe is the first to admit in his excellent book and prior writings that the process of impeaching and removing a president contains political elements as well as judicial ones.

So he should not be surprised that the Democratic dominated House pre-judged Trump’s guilt, while the Republican house may have pre-judged his innocence. That is the nature of the system and should be addressed as a whole not by accepting the partisan nature of an impeachment, while rejecting the partisan nature of a trial.

This is yet another example of partisans failing the "shoe on the other foot" test. I cannot imagine Pelosi or Tribe proposing this jerry-rigged unconstitutional gambit had Hillary Clinton been elected president, and had a Republican House impeached her.

They would then be demanding that the Democratic controlled Senate conduct a trial and acquit their improperly impeached candidate.

Alexander Hamilton worried that the greatest danger of misusing the impeachment process would be to make it turn on the comparative votes each party could muster in the House and the Senate. This danger has come to fruition with the current impeachment — the first one in American history — that is based purely on partisan votes.

The proper response is not to distort, ignore and violate the explicit terms of the Constitution that view impeachment by the House as a first steptoward a trial by the Senate. An impeached president has a right to be tried and acquitted by the Senate.

Denying him and the American people that fundamental right might serve the temporary interests of the Democratic Party, and academics who support it, but would do violence to the rule of constitutional law that is supposed to serve all Americans, regardless of party or ideology.

Alan M. Dershowitz is the Felix Frankfurter Professor of Law Emeritus at Harvard Law School and author of "Guilt by Accusation" and "The Case Against the Democratic House Impeaching Trump." Read more reports from Alan M. Dershowitz – Click Here Now.

Follow Alan Dershowitz on

Twitter: @AlanDersh

Facebook: @AlanMDershowitz
 
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He tends to go off script and just say whatever pops into his head.
I’m sure he has good speech writers, he just doesn’t use their work product.

I'm not on either side because it's not my country, but Trump doesn't act like a world leader at all. The things he says don't exist make sense.
Another question im not to sure on but isn't the Senate, the ones that can impeach him full of his people?
Your country would benefit from multi parties, not just 2.
 
Another question im not to sure on but isn't the Senate, the ones that can impeach him full of his people?
Your country would benefit from multi parties, not just 2.
Yes, the Senate is full of Republicans who support Trump or are too scared to say the don’t because Trump has a rabid base.
I agree that there should be more than two parties, but it’s hard to go from one system to the other, I would think.
 
I'm not on either side because it's not my country, but Trump doesn't act like a world leader at all. The things he says don't exist make sense.
Another question im not to sure on but isn't the Senate, the ones that can impeach him full of his people?
Your country would benefit from multi parties, not just 2.

He's already been impeached. Impeached just means charged in this context, no convicted and removed from office. But yes, the senate conducts the trial after impeachment, and yes the senate is a republican majority (his party).

It's worth noting that party discipline in the US is a lot lower than in many other first world countries, but it's still doubtful they'd convict.
 

Pelosi's Proposal to Withhold Senate Trial Is Unconstitutional
By Alan Dershowitz
Thursday, 19 December 2019 02:40 PM


GetFile.aspx

U.S. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., strikes the gavel after announcing the passage of article II of impeachment against President Donald Trump, Dec. 18, 2019, on Capitol Hill in Washington. (Patrick Semansky/AP)

Now that the House has impeached President Trump, the question is what happens next. Speaker Pelosi has suggested that she may withhold the articles of impeachment from the Senate as part of a negotiating tactic. This ploy drives from an idea put forward by my friend and colleague Laurence Tribe, who has proposed that the Senate not conduct a trial — at least not now.

He would withhold the trial until the Senate agreed to change its rules, or presumably until a new election put many more Democrats in the Senate. Under his proposal, there might never be a Senate trial, but the impeachment would stand as a final and permanent condemnation of President Trump.

It is difficult to imagine anything more unconstitutional, more violative of the intention of the Framers, more of a denial of basic due process and civil liberties, more unfair to the president and more likely to increase the current divisiveness among the American people. Put bluntly, it is hard to imagine a worse idea put forward by good people

Denying President Trump and the American people a trial in the Senate would constitute a variation on the title of my new book, "Guilt by Accusation."

President Trump would stand accused of two articles of impeachment without having an opportunity to be acquitted by the institution selected by the Framers to try all cases of impeachment. It would be as if a prosecutor deliberately decided to indict a criminal defendant but not to put him on trial.

This would deny him the right to confront his accusers and to disprove the charges against him. Tribe himself uses a variant of this analogy.

He hypothesizes a situation in which a prosecutor indicts a criminal defendant and then discovers that the proposed trial would be been tainted by jury tampering. Would the prosecutor then not have the right to withhold the trial until such time as an untainted jury could be seated?

As a law professor who has employed hypotheticals for more than half a century, this one fails on its face. A true analogy would be not to a prosecutor who discovered after indictment that the jury was tainted, but to a prosecutor who believed before the indictment that there was no possibility of a fair jury trial.

A prosecutor who indicted under such circumstances — not intending to bring the defendant to trial — would be violating his duty and denying the defendant his fundamental rights.

An even better analogy would be a prosecutor who knew that both the grand jury and the petit jury were tainted by preexisting prejudices: the grand jury was biased against the defendant and the petit jury in his favor.

Nonetheless, he went forward with an indictment by the grand jury that was biased against the defendant and withheld a trial by a petit jury that was biased in the defendant’s favor.

Tribe’s analogy fails for another reason as well.

Tribe is the first to admit in his excellent book and prior writings that the process of impeaching and removing a president contains political elements as well as judicial ones.

So he should not be surprised that the Democratic dominated House pre-judged Trump’s guilt, while the Republican house may have pre-judged his innocence. That is the nature of the system and should be addressed as a whole not by accepting the partisan nature of an impeachment, while rejecting the partisan nature of a trial.

This is yet another example of partisans failing the "shoe on the other foot" test. I cannot imagine Pelosi or Tribe proposing this jerry-rigged unconstitutional gambit had Hillary Clinton been elected president, and had a Republican House impeached her.

They would then be demanding that the Democratic controlled Senate conduct a trial and acquit their improperly impeached candidate.

Alexander Hamilton worried that the greatest danger of misusing the impeachment process would be to make it turn on the comparative votes each party could muster in the House and the Senate. This danger has come to fruition with the current impeachment — the first one in American history — that is based purely on partisan votes.

The proper response is not to distort, ignore and violate the explicit terms of the Constitution that view impeachment by the House as a first steptoward a trial by the Senate. An impeached president has a right to be tried and acquitted by the Senate.

Denying him and the American people that fundamental right might serve the temporary interests of the Democratic Party, and academics who support it, but would do violence to the rule of constitutional law that is supposed to serve all Americans, regardless of party or ideology.

Alan M. Dershowitz is the Felix Frankfurter Professor of Law Emeritus at Harvard Law School and author of "Guilt by Accusation" and "The Case Against the Democratic House Impeaching Trump." Read more reports from Alan M. Dershowitz – Click Here Now.

Follow Alan Dershowitz on

Twitter: @AlanDersh

Facebook: @AlanMDershowitz

I agree that such a tactic would probably be unconstitutional, though not the most blatantly unconstitutional thing ever.

But, I don't really see it happening. It would be a really stupid gambit.
 
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