The One and Only Official CEP Ron Paul Thread

[Pander Bear]

Is the "smart shopper" to blame for being unfit from eating cheaper food loaded with fat and sodium and high fructose corn syrup? I can guarantee that a corporation made a bundle making it that way.

Yes. You are the ultimate authority in your own life. It is your responsibility, before it is anyone else's, to ensure you're eating a balanced diet. I'm very much in favor of sticking it to the multinationals that make processed food full of trans fats and artificial sweeteners linked to cancer. If I was at the helm of this state, I would legislate them out of existence. Until we wrest control of the federal government away from corporations, personal responsibility and enlightened self-interest is all we have.

Is the tragically underpaid and overworked average American to blame that his aging hunk-a-junk gas guzzler is all too often the only way to get around? I can guarantee that some corporattions make alot of money on all that gas too, likely the same ones that like to line our legislators pockets to keep it that way.

He can do the following: live closer to his place of employment, carpool, ride a bike, take a bus or a train, telecommute. Those are all things that we're going to have to get used to in the next 25 years, like it or not. Your argument (in a day when gas is three times as expensive as it was a couple years ago) is that people can't afford to buy efficient cars? I don't know where you live, but in the past 2 years, I've spent considerable amounts of time in rural settings, small towns, the suburbs, and a large city. People aren't "making due" with Nixon-era sedans. They're all driving brand-new, financed SUVs and Pickup trucks.

And ya, I'm confident that you can "guarantee that some corporattions make alot of money on all that gas". I'd say that its self-evident. It doesn't prove anything, though. New Coke and Crystal Clear Pepsi failed because nobody bought them, not because the cola industry didn't lobby hard enough for it.

And maybe we do buy too many new computers and televisions and toaster ovens, but there's more than a few corporations making those things so shitty that they just simply don't last very long at all, and yet still so cheap that any kind of repair is unheard of...

How many working products have you thrown away? Probably more than you can count. And aren't there brands remaining (this is rhetorical, there are manufacturers remaining) that produce high quality, durable goods that aren't intended to break down, and be cast aside. And then there's always GOING WITHOUT THE NEWEST FUCKING CELLPHONE BECAUSE YOUR SENSE OF SELF WORTH ISN'T INTIMATELY CONNECTED TO A MASS PRODUCED PIECE OF DISPOSABLE PLASTIC.

at least for someone trying to save money, or just trying to make ends meet since at the end of the day the only thing left to motivate the tragically overworked and underpaid consumer may just be to be able to drink a ice cold Miller®, eat a PopTart®, and kick back and watch the Tonight Show®.

Our ancestors died in boats by the dozens to get to this continent, and then cut down old growth forests to plant grain in infertile soil full of roots. They contracted Typhus, Tuberculosis, tetanus and gangrene while they were doing it. People who can't muster the energy to play with their children, or cook a meal from raw materials, or take a 30 minute walk instead of watching the same cold jokes on Leno repeated all week long need to either suck it up, or make some concessions in their lives so they can work less and live more.

You don't need 99% of the things you own to live happily. People got by just fine without them for several millennia.

What's more: your need for ephemeral consumer goods, mindless entertainment, choices made by big brother, and cars that make you feel powerful and safe is killing the only habitable planet we've found yet. Stop shitting where I eat, and stop being an apologist for the weaker parts of human nature. You sound like the kind of guy who would, if given the opportunity, try to pass the buck to Anheiser Busch of you hit a pedestrian while you were driving drunk.

 

[Jeebus Mic]

Oh? Americans aren't responsible for the aggressive measures our government takes to secure oil reserves? Every other car on the road that I see is occupied by one person, and is over a ton of aluminum and steel that gets under 20 miles per gallon.

Do Americans have anybody but themselves to blame for our trade defecit and the precarious position national banks of other countries have us in? No, we don't. We buy new cars ever 5 years, new TVs every three years, and new cell phones every 8 months. We don't save money, we eat shitty food and don't stay fit. We spend money we don't have on things we don't need. We have almost totally abdicated our roles as citizens, and become "consumers".


No buddy, we have nobody to blame but ourselves.

You are making a lot of assumptions and no facts to back it up really. most cars that you see are 4 or 6 cylinders they get more than 22 mpg almost up to 35 for 4 cylinders. The heavy duty trucks and SUV's which people use to drive kids around in might get less but then they have their purposes in which they are used.

As for the trade deficit the dollar has corrected itself after 20 years of abuse by the world economy. Other currencies rose and fell according to their trade deficits the dollar did not fall. it remained high and bloated until just the past couple of years.

This is your assumption and not really factual in any sense. emotional more than anything. If people aren't saving money then why do they have savings accounts? why do people have CD and bonds? why do people have 401k's? why do people have stocks? yes people are saving money and they have gotten smart about it. why stick it in a bank at little interest when i can put it in a cd at 5%?

I hate to break it to you but you're wrong. America has never been perfect but i wouldn't want to live in any other place.

Then again if you don't like it here you can always go live in another country.


Like I said Ron Paul is blaming america for everything. sorry no way do I want someone like that as president. i want someone who will stand beside this country. Can't really protect this country from our enemies if you see yourself as the enemy now can you?

 

[Pander Bear]

when I say people aren't saving, I'm saying they aren't investing (enough) either. There are lots of people who don't pay into 401Ks. There's nothing that we can do for people like that aside from nanny-stating them, which I'm not interested in doing.

Your last paragraph seem pretty absurd to me. I don't really see anybody, Paul included, blaming "America". I don't really think that has a precise meaning, anyway. Paul is quick (and I'd say right) to blame corporatists, statists, and the apathetic for this nation's problems.

If you want somebody who thinks and says that everything is hunky dory while he invades other countries, props up dictatorships, dissolves the line between church and state, suspends the rights guaranteed to us by the constitution, et cetera, by all means, moan loud enough. I'm sure W will hear you and agree to just not move out of the white house.


Don't patronize me with your "hate to break it to you" silliness-- especially if you're going to tell me my argument is baseless, only to follow it up with a factless, baseless counterargument, ok sweetheart?

As for cars: show me a minivan, or a station wagon that can't meet every need of 99 percent of the population that currently owns SUVs. How many boats so you see towed? Ya, not many. How many moms do you see driving to the grocery store alone, ya, most of them.

 

[Pander Bear]

http://money.cnn.com/2007/04/10/pf/...2007/index.htm?postversion=2007041108?cnn=yes

there, more forthcoming

I should also add that "having stocks" is not saving for retirement. Its holding assets that can be seriously devalued if your portfolio is poorly assembled when the market takes a down turn.

 

[kong]

Last year Americans spent more than they saved. Its the net effect that counts.

 

[mulberryman]

I've never thrown away one single working appliancve thank you. Given a few away, though, and there's certainly no harm in that. I don't commute anywhere either, though for a long time commuted over 90 miles a day to save on rent that was still cheaper than the gas to commute to a city full of consevative assholes. When my car broke down I had to wait 11 hours every day waiting for Greyhound® buses that raped me of my earnings to point of being evicted, losing the best job I ever had, and ultimately destroying my family.

STFU, you know nothing.

-------

Bingal, I honestly do hope the best for you in your business endeavors, but for your sake, I hope you are both obsessive-compulsive and incredibly lucky, cause that is what it takes to succeed in a capitalist society.

 

[bingalpaws]

I've never thrown away one single working appliancve thank you. Given a few away, though, and there's certainly no harm in that. I don't commute anywhere either, though for a long time commuted over 90 miles a day to save on rent that was still cheaper than the gas to commute to a city full of consevative assholes. When my car broke down I had to wait 11 hours every day waiting for Greyhound® buses that raped me of my earnings to point of being evicted, losing the best job I ever had, and ultimately destroying my family.

STFU, you know nothing.

-------

Bingal, I honestly do hope the best for you in your business endeavors, but for your sake, I hope you are both obsessive-compulsive and incredibly lucky, cause that is what it takes to succeed in a capitalist society.

whether or not you have thrown away things, the point is generally true - people are complete idiots with their cash and have so little, if any, ability to grasp the concept of LIVING BELOW THEIR MEANS that it's truly very sad. The overwhelming majority of poor people could become far, far better off if they just lived below their means and saved money (and before the 'but there just isn't enough money to put any aside!' arguements start flying at me, I'm calling bullshit, there's always a way).

Also you shouldn't be so rude to him, he made a lot of good points (atlas maybe? I was going to make many of the same myself but he beat me to it). To say that it's not the consumer's fault for being obese because corn syrup may be cheaper than grains, or any victim logic like that in obesity situations is just absurd. You can see the weight going on every time you look in a mirror - you cut back or you keep the same habits and let the fat accumulate, that's your own choice - it is NOT the fault of the supermarket, mcdonald's, the government, or anyone but the person who continues to overeat despite seeing themselves how many times daily in the mirror?


About your comment to me - I've gotta be honest, I cannot tell if you're being sarcastic or not (actually wishing me luck, as we've clearly had bad interactions in the past). If you're serious, then thank you, as it is some serious stressful shit right now trying to get things off the ground.

However, that paragraph just, well, it's dripping with the most defeatist attitude imaginable. I never had to be lucky or obsessive compulsive to have more cash than most anyone I knew - it's just work ethic. Whether it was delivering papers as a kid/pre-teen, working the fast food joints/grocery stores, or small businesses and retail management in college, it was NEVER an obsessive thing OR a luck thing. It was always just keeping a job and tucking some cash aside - which is exactly how I'm in a position now where I'm trying to launch my career/company. But to make it seem like this only happens if you're obsessive, or lucky, it's just not true in the least. I'll never forget something that a guy I look up to a lot, I guess a role model if it had to be labelled, said. To paraphrase, "It's simple, but not easy". There's no need for luck, or for being hyper obsessive on anything. Just simply work your ass off, be smart with your cash, and never forget to live beneath your means.

/end rant lol

 

[mulberryman]

Well you speak truth and yes I was being serious, but speaking as an obsessive-compulsive, I can tell you that luck is most definitly also needed and working your ass off is no less healthy than eating crappily but we crazy people will still do these things. Being smart with your cash is one thing, but living beneath your means is not something that the general public will ever do, they lick their plates clean 'cause tommorrow there may not be anything to lick, and who can blame them. And yeah, maybe I was a bit rude to atlas, but blaming the consumer is not going to solve anything ..ever. People aren't gonna stop eating Whopper®'s because one guy on a soapbox told them they should drive Prius®'es. Some people want to legislate morality so that our fucked up obese and out of control children who we daren't ever try to teach right from wrong or else risk becoming just another victim of the US Corrections Corporation® (a real company, one of several in that business, actually) have noone to help them safely flush their unwanted zygotes, but I say we should legislate morality to make GM® and Ford® and Daimler® and Honda® and Kia® and Suzuki® and Farfugnugen® market more elecric cars and manufacture nothing that goes less than 50 miles for each gallon of ethanol it burns, and Shell® and Mobil® and BP® and Citgo® to only sell ethanol and clean burning and renewable fuels, to say nothing about how Taco Bell® and Wal-Mart®, and Toshiba®, and GlaxoSmithKline® and FritoLay® and Microsoft® and all the rest of them need to clean up their acts.

 

[bingalpaws]

whoa, long post (not really long, just full of stuff I feel a need to respond to!), so, yeah, be forewarned: the following post is likely to be filled with alcoholic ramblings Give me 10min to pull that into word doc and put back out here lol

 

[bingalpaws]

Well you speak truth and yes I was being serious,

Thank you then! I don't believe in luck or anything like that but it's nice to get some supportive comments once in a while, given that my current role in building my career/company basically has me completely sequestered from teh general public (well, if you exclude 5 home depot trips every week, anyways ).

but speaking as an obsessive-compulsive, I can tell you that luck is most definitly also needed

See, that's where we'd diverge on opinion, yet I don't feel you know enough to be sure of your 'opinion' on that. For example, there's nothing that involves luck if you want to work full time as a painter. You start when you're younger, bust ass painting, never have any experience people would ascribe to luck, and continually save a portion of your income (live below your means). Guess what, you'll be financially secure. But people don't want to do that, in fact, the sad thing (100% anecdotal here) is that poor people seem to have so little caution with their cash it's frightening. I would constantly be shocked going to bars in college last year, seeing my friends buy these drinks that were $5-10 apiece! No thanks, I'll show up stumbling. I go to my (poor) mother's house, and she'll order food, go out for dinner, etc, I tell her that she shouldn't but she still does. It's like people cannot get the point - if you make $X/week, and you spend it all, you'll always be poor. This isn't even 100% relative to your job's annual pay, mind you. There are people who make $150k/year, but are fucking maxed out. Sure, they drive a mercedes (with a payment plan of sorts), and live in a half million dollar house (with a mortgage), but the bottom line is they're not living below their means and if they lose their job, they can say goodbye to their nice cars/house. It's not entirely an issue of how much you make in a year, it's how smart you are with your cash. I see my mother, for example, in a position of being broke and never ever saving any of her cash. Before I <recently> moved to the state she lives in, she would quite often use those 'payday' loans where you get raped on interest. She uses a prepaid cell phone because her credit sucks. I swear, people living at / above their means don't seem to realize that doing so only fucking perpetuates their financial status. I hate it because I can get a cell phone with a reasonable minutes fee and she can't, but she'd 'need' one more than I would. Same goes for interest rates on loans, payday loan crap, etc etc, there are a lot of reasons poor people stay poor, and at the end of the day (I'm sorry), it's still in their hands to make a change.

and working your ass off is no less healthy than eating crappily but we crazy people will still do these things.

That's just not true. I mean, to the extremes, yeah, it can be unhealthy. But the body adapts and is fine, hell there was actually an article I read a while back that showed the % of upper management/corporate types that were in great shape (not just random corporate people but the highest of the highest), and it was pretty striking. Of course I don't have a source so, unless someone else can throw stats here, take it for what it's worth. But no, you do not have to hurt your health to be productive and make cash, and furthermore, you can just earn a little less cash but be more frugal if you're that concerned about the health aspect.

Being smart with your cash is one thing, but living beneath your means is not something that the general public will ever do,

Neither will they stop being overweight. Nor irrational. But what else do you propose? Should we let people be dumb with their finances and just bail them out at the expense of those who were smart with their finances <which is what I know you believe in>? Or should we let people be grown ups and NOT hold their hands, and give them 100% accountability over their own lives?

they lick their plates clean 'cause tommorrow there may not be anything to lick, and who can blame them.

I can. If every day you're scrapping to make bills, maybe it's time to just ditch the cell phone. Or the pot. Or the booze. Or the cigarettes. Take a little bit each month until you KNOW that tomorrow, there may be a plate to lick. Stupidity and ignorance about finances isn't a valid excuse here, I cannot understand why so many feel it is.

And yeah, maybe I was a bit rude to atlas, but blaming the consumer is not going to solve anything ..ever.

I don't think it inherently solves anything, no. But what do you suggest as the solution, I whip out my checkbook? No system is perfect, and capitalism has all its flaws and we know that. But what solution are you offering? As far as I've ever known, it's just been wealth redistribution, and I guess I just feel that, as grown ups, it's silly for those kind of mandates.

People aren't gonna stop eating Whopper®'s because one guy on a soapbox told them they should drive Prius®'es.

not really sure what the point you're trying to make here is... PersonA eats 1 whopper/day. Over several years they notice they're getting rather large. After 20 years they have a chest pain, see the doc, and find out they need a heart operation they cannot afford. Regardless of whether the guy telling them they were doing wrong drove a prius, it was their fault - they clearly (barring mental disabilities) ate more and more, despite seeing themselves in the mirror daily, and became fat - it is a conscious choice that I am GLAD to see available, it's just not my choice. I don't want you to stop eating/becoming obese if that's your thing, great, go for it! If you want to be a complete alcoholic, go for it! If sniffing spray paint's your kick, I have no issue with it. Hmm, given I don't know your point in that quote I'll end this rant

Some people want to legislate morality so that our fucked up obese and out of control children who we daren't ever try to teach right from wrong or else risk becoming just another victim of the US Corrections Corporation® (a real company, one of several in that business, actually) have noone to help them safely flush their unwanted zygotes, but I say we should legislate morality to make GM® and Ford® and Daimler® and Honda® and Kia® and Suzuki® and Farfugnugen® market more elecric cars and manufacture nothing that goes less than 50 miles for each gallon of ethanol it burns, and Shell® and Mobil® and BP® and Citgo® to only sell ethanol and clean burning and renewable fuels, to say nothing about how Taco Bell® and Wal-Mart®, and Toshiba®, and GlaxoSmithKline® and FritoLay® and Microsoft® and all the rest of them need to clean up their acts.

hmmmmmmm... unsure how to approach that quote...fuck you jimb eam.

1: your increasing usage of trademark and restricted symbols is amusing, no doubt

2: electric cars, to the best of my knowledge, are WORSE for the environment than a standard internal combustion engine (call me on this fact for explanation if doubted, too driznunk to explain fully lol). I have no issue with environmentally friendly vehicles, as I've mentioned there's a prius in my driveway (my fiance's, I like my v6 ).

3: you just clearly hate major, successful corporations. Is there one, just one, single general corporation (NOT some windmill farm), just a regular, everyday household-name company that you do NOT have a problem with? There are always issues, negative externalities, etc with large firms, but it just seems you paint them all with the same broad stroke and any firm that's large and successful is automatically bad - that just comes across as ignorance. Walmart, as much as they're a great symbol of hatred for many, is clearly a great choice for many consumers, as evidenced by their supporting of walmart. If hte people did not like walmarts, they wouldn't be here (see, to me, that is the beauty of markets/capitalism. I'm sure in your ideas of a more socialist society, there'd be no walmarts. But you know what? Lots of people like walmart, hell they NEED walmart if they want to have certain consumer goods, walmart enables someone to get a $9.99 dvd player and other random crap that they never would've bought at a best buy or something. Walmart is clearly what consumers want, as evidenced by their spending habits. And you can talk all the shit you want about how walmart 'treats' its employees, but I'm just gonna sit back and be happy I live in a country where, if I so desire, I can pay the lowest wage (which, generally speaking, attracts the lowest quality employees) for some of the lowest level help, to keep my prices down <to keep consumers coming to my store>, so that I can keep my profit margins <ie, my boat and mansion> in line. I know it's easy to hate, but why on earth would you want to prohibit this?

/rant lol, damn I generally have a rule NOT to post if I had a single drink because I can go on for pages and pages after some shots, so yeah, apologies for the bumbling diatribe

 

[Pander Bear]

mull, you ignored about 95% of what I posted, and decided to tell me an anecdotal sob story. Does that mean I just refuted all your points except "I bet you've throw away a perfectly good electric razor"?

 

[mulberryman]

Nope don't use electric razors, as unlike good electric cars, they suck and its a waste that they even exist at all, though I've never shelled out a few Benjie's for one that might be of acceptable quality, so I really wouldn't know, but then y'all must have delicate skin or something. 8)

As a matter of fact, I didn't buy my TV, it was given to me by someone who got a better one. My computer is new, and I gave my old one to someone else. And, I haven't paid for a CD or video in years, and that is real progress, imho. On the other hand I've probably thrown out 5 toasters in the last year or so, since they generally last about 6 weeks if I'm lucky, which apparently I'm not, of course I guess I probably should just eat my PopTarts® cold, eh?

As for stupidity, well that's the stuff that dreams are made of in the corporate world, just ask the people who actually believe the commercial about Burger King not selling the Whopper® for a day to see what happens. Of course, if there were no commercials on the tele, there probably wouldn't be no tele, at least not any that most people could afford to pay for, which would suit me just fine, since most people edit them damn things out before uploading them on <site and format censored to protect the world from whatever morons and/or corporate kingpins that might be reading this>'s. By the way, if you can't afford to eat, well its extremely easy to correct that, just go into Wal-Mart wearing a coat with alot of pockets, and guess what, even if you get caught, you're still guaranteed not to starve. Of course, some of us refuse to resort to such measures, as evident in my recent poetry thread I've posted here. Food, like all necessities should be free to all who don't want to pay for it, and if that means people aren't "acting like grown-ups" or whatever, well, so what?! Only a child would deny a hungry man a decent meal, and that's the kind of truth that that Jesus guy was trying to teach y'all "Christian" types, but I guess the rosy afterglow of Black Friday has alot of them still living under the impression that we'd all be better off not paying enough taxes to feed all those would be abortions that are only alive today because they're as goddalfuckdarn crazy as I am, which should be abundantly obvious by now, especially if you've clicked on all the links I've so graciously posted for ya's. :D

 

[mulberryman]

..sorry to keep ranting on, but I'd just like to explaind a little more about where I'm coming from with all this and hopefully, maybe even, tie it all back in to the topic a little.

Bingal, you frequently used the phrase, "poor people", but have you ever been poor. I know it can be hard to understand just how much sweeter an ice cold Coca-Cola® tastes when you bought it with the last dollar to your name, and how the big 2 liter bottle just doesn't cut it. It equally hard to understand just how hard it is to apply for welfare, and not just how hard it is on your psyche, which it most certainly is, but it similarily hard to understand, as Everclear sang about the joy of welfare christmas, but love is love and children deprived of it grow up to be assholes who hoard all of their resources, qnd I know love in't the same as material things, but when you're working 60 hours a week, its hard to see that too sometimes. Thankfully, I can honestly say that my gf and I are not actually "poor people", though she might diasgree some, but we're actually doing kinda ok, and I might not be so ornery about this kinda shit if it weren't December and all, since despite the fact that Christmas stimulates the economy, ourselves and everyone everyone we know is hurting this time year, likely because Christmas stimulates the economy, although I doubt much of anything can stiumlate it enough to pull the country out of the bottomless trench that this insane and immoral war is dragging us into, and if Ron Paul can end it, then he might actually be decent choice for president, though I still think Dennis Kucinich is the far better choice, since he not likely to try to destroy all the good progressive things we still hace in this country like our schools and highway systems, as well as Medicare and section 8 housing, which are as of today tragically underfunded, as evident by the decreased number of things like welfare Christmases and other things that our corporately funded government and media never seems interested in trying to measure.

Frankly, I'd like to see the phrase "poor people" no longer apply to our world. I don't know if we can actually ever end poverty complelty, but its a far more noble goal to than to declare a war on "terrorism" or "drugs", so +1 for Lyndon Johnson for trying, I guess, though too bad that bastard didn't have the vision to end the war that forever tarnished his reputation. Simply put, war needs to end and love needs to begin, and if that makes me sound like a hippy, then so be it, I'll stand proud in my tye dye T-shirt or whatever, at least my conscience is clean.

 

[Pander Bear]

I'm not a Christian type...

SO STFU YOU DON"T KNOW ME, YOU IDIOT (see how off-putting your prefered level of discourse is?)

We agree on too much of what's going on here to be arguing like this. I despise how commercial and corporate American culture is. I agree that its a terrible thing to try to get out of, and that you can't blame people for being prisoners of it when they don't understand that there are alternatives.

I just have to part ways with you when I say that it is a personal responsibility to try to do better once you know that the world isn't all cheetos, Everybody loves Raymond, and Ford Excursions.

 

[bingalpaws]

Bingal, you frequently used the phrase, "poor people", but have you ever been poor.

I've probably spanned further across the poor/rich scale than the vast majority of people. I grew up poor with 1 parent, switched custody and was in a much, much wealthier household, was thrown out of there and was homeless, and then worked/went to school/saved cash and am now starting my career. So yeah, I've done my time sleeping outdoors, being hungry, etc not too many years back, and I'll always have the memories of being a poor kid growing up (kind of hard to forget the awkwardness of waiting for the lunch lady to find your name in the free lunch packet, or the giving a single dollar store gift to my aunt/uncle/cousins from my whole household )

I know it can be hard to understand just how much sweeter an ice cold Coca-Cola® tastes when you bought it with the last dollar to your name, and how the big 2 liter bottle just doesn't cut it.

I cannot argue that - hell, when I know that I rolled while I was homeless so I clearly prioritized drugs over things that were important even when it was clearly retarded to do so. But then I realized I needed to do something about it, and did. That's really all there is to it, although I know you would have sympathy for someone who never goes to escape the poverty trap.

It equally hard to understand just how hard it is to apply for welfare, and not just how hard it is on your psyche, which it most certainly is, but it similarily hard to understand,

It is pretty easy to understand if you've been in similar situations. But there's a flipside to that which I've seen with many people - over time, it actually becomes far easier psychologically to deal with the <humiliation? can't think of the proper word, meh> than it was in the beginning, which, I believe anyways, is part of what keeps some people on these programs for their life.

Frankly, I'd like to see the phrase "poor people" no longer apply to our world.

See that's just as ignorant as the drug warriors talking about a drug free world.

Ask yourself, what is poor? Your average poor person today has life far, far better than a middle class person did, what, like 50 years ago?

It's all relative, no matter how high the bar is raised with regards to standards of living, there will always be people at the high end of the spectrum, and <'poor'> people at the low end.

You say you want to see no more poor people? Do you accept my previous statement that it's all relative, regardless of how high standard of livings are raised, that there will always be the poor crowd? If you answered yes to both of those questions, then just realize that what you mean to say is you want 100% wealth redistribution so that everybody has the same stuff, so there are no high/low ends of the spectrum. But don't veil that school of thought as 'I don't want to see poor people', because you need to face reality - if there's any difference in assets among the people there will be the 'poor' crowd, that's just the way it goes.

I don't know if we can actually ever end poverty complelty,

hmm w/o checking a definition of poverty I'm not sure if it's realistically obtainable..

 

[bingalpaws]

TODAY'S the day!!

December 16th already, tea party '07!!

http://www.teaparty07.com/

Felt today is a bit too important to linger in the ron paul thread alone so I wanted to start a thread for it.


Just put my donation through at ronpaul2008.com, who else is donating today?

 

[bingalpaws]

just to remind everyone who was planning to donate today, it's the 16th!!!!

 

[foodisgood]

I am. Our meetup is having a big get together so its gonna be fun

 

[bingalpaws]

nice!!!

 

[e1evene1even]

http://www.ronpaulgraphs.com/