• Current Events & Politics
    Welcome Guest
    Please read before posting:
    Forum Guidelines Bluelight Rules
  • Current Events & Politics Moderators: tryptakid | Foreigner

The One and Only Official CEP Ron Paul Thread

Ron Paul Makes Name For Himself During Republican Debate

Gambling 911
Thursday September 6, 2007

News agencies focused the spotlight on 2008 Presidential candidate Ron Paul, a rare moment indeed. Paul insisted the war in Iraq could risk bringing the Republican party down while all other candidates lashed back during a debate Wednesday evening in New Hampshire.

"Even if we lose elections, we should not lose our honor," shot back former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee, "and that is more important to the Republican Party."

Some would argue that the real losses that matter are the losses of American lives in Iraq, though the audience applauded Huckabee.

The debate unfolded several days before Gen. David Petraeus is scheduled to deliver an assessment of President Bush's decision to commit 30,000 additional combat troops to give the Iraqi government time to develop.

Sen. John McCain, former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney and Giuliani were among those who stressed their support for the war, at times even competing to show their commitment.

"The surge is apparently working," said Romney, referring to the increase in troops.

The 2008 Presidential odds continue to hold firm for all Republican candidates. Ron Paul and Mitt Romney were both listed with 8 to 1 odds. Rudy Giuliani was still the favorite with 3 to 1 odds.

http://www.gambling911.com/Ron-Paul-Republican-Debate-090607.html
 
Ron Paul: Marching to the Constitution
Ron Paul defends position to keep troops out of Arabian Peninsula.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGyk4TbEiaI

Holy SHIT! GO PAUL!

Ron Paul, Republican Debate: Iranian Threat
Ron Paul defends position of non-aggression with Iran. Diplomacy overrides war

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HD9nO0c328

Ron Paul is driving Sean Hannity crazy
Sean Hannity reacts to Ron Paul's huge win in the post debate faux news text poll...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mx7Q8-5PtOs

Fair and balanced my ass.
Hannity lies to discredit Ron Paul after debate.
Claims "Paulites" flood voted to skew text poll, yet only one vote per phone number was allowed

Fox Wants War with Iran but Loses Battle with Ron Paul - 9/5
Not that any of you are surprised but Fox wastes no time beating the drums of war after the New Hampshire GOP debate. Luckily for us, Ron Paul is there to cross swords with them.

Needless to say, Fox gets owned...but it's getting scarier by the minute

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YnmAHjM9FQ
 
Last edited:
Underdog Paul Inspires Political Passion

AP
September 6, 2007

Passengers on a plane leaving New York could see three words in 4-foot block letters painted on an East Village rooftop terrace as they ascended: GOOGLE RON PAUL. The entreaty to search the Internet for news of the Republican congressman from rural Texas is one of the more visible signs of enthusiasm from a do-it-yourself base of Web fans. Their support doesn't show up in public opinion polls, but it's unmatched among presidential candidates in its passion.

On their own, the fans have developed a Ron Paul Revolution logo, marketing the idea through YouTube. Message boards and Web sites debate his virtues.

The Web fans for Paul's anti-establishment campaign run away with online polls and blanket Web sites with caps-locked, exclamation-point endorsements of the contrarian Republican, even though he measures no more than 2 percent in most national opinion polls.

The supporters have an entrepreneurial drive and get their political news from Internet sources outside the mainstream media, especially blogs and news aggregators that rely on popular vote to determine news value.

That same spirit inspires them to canvass parade routes in 100-degree heat, argue campaign strategy in two-hour meetings or paint the roof of a Manhattan apartment building.

"To get your arms around everything and understand what is going on is really impossible to do," Paul spokesman Jesse Benton said of supporters roaming the Web.

Paul's message is gospel among his base, which Benton described as mostly old-school conservatives.

Supporters can recite his talking points at length.

"They forge their own intellectual world to find the obscure, unusual sources of information that lead them to obscure, unusual candidates like Ron Paul," said Brian Doherty, a columnist for the libertarian magazine Reason.

Avery Knapp is typical of the Paul Web supporter. A 28-year-old radiology resident, Knapp describes himself as a lifelong conservative who voted for President Bush in 2000 before growing disillusioned with the Iraq war and federal spending.

Bush "did nothing but increase the size of government. The Republican Party needs to move back to its core principles," Knapp said. Many Paul supporters share Knapp's disdain for what he called a "neo-conservative clique" and hope Paul can spark a Goldwater-style insurgency.

At 46, Kevin Leslie has never bothered with politics. After watching an interview with Paul during his 1988 campaign as candidate for the Libertarian Party, Leslie told himself, "If this guy ever runs for president again, I'll back him."

Paul did, and Leslie was good to his word, starting a prominent Paul blog in February and traveling to the recent straw poll in Ames, Iowa.

Paul has attracted a contingent of previously apolitical and even left-leaning Americans like Leslie who support his call to pull all troops out of Iraq immediately and who like his reputation for opposing any legislation not linked to principles already expressed in the Constitution.

"I've already been surprised by how much traction his campaign has gotten," Doherty said. "He's a clever politician because these netroots types can call him a 'true conservative,' a 'constitutionalist' or whatever they call themselves, and he's sensitive to that."

Whatever their political background, the supporters all consider themselves part of a spray-paint and duct-tape "Ron Paul Revolution." Four banners with that unofficial logo hang from the fire escapes of the Manhattan building.

"They couldn't reel us in if they wanted to. Most everything has become an unofficial-official part of the campaign," said Dave Gallagher, whose cadre of Paul supporters came up with the Ron Paul Revolution logo.

Gallagher claims to have started the first group for Paul supporters on Meetup.com, a Web site geared toward the kind of networking that helped presidential candidate Howard Dean's supporters organize in 2004.

In the six months since, more than 30,000 people have joined Meetup groups in more than 700 places across the country. Paul's Meetup presence surpassed Dean's in just two months, said Andres Glusman, vice president of Meetup.com.

"Because people have the power to self-organize here, it's obvious that he's hitting a chord that is resonating with people in a way the media is not acknowledging," Glusman said.

This weekend, Paul will be the major Republican candidate to attend a Texas GOP straw poll in Fort Worth. Straw polls typically are won by the candidate who does the best job turning out dedicated supporters. All the top tier candidates in the race � and a few lower-rung candidates as well � are bypassing the event.

When Paul supporters get together, they often find themselves thrown into the intricacies of running an insurgent campaign, attorney Steven Heath said after a Meetup session in Dallas.

"These guys in Meetup, hardly any of them have any political experience," Heath said. "These people are newbies. They're about to get plugged in, and they'll be plugged in with Paul's ideas."


http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iM47kc-2TqnQGFAX1Hz_0xGWE-ig
 
e1evene1even said:
Passengers on a plane leaving New York could see three words in 4-foot block letters painted on an East Village rooftop terrace as they ascended: GOOGLE RON PAUL. The entreaty to search the Internet for news of the Republican congressman from rural Texas is one of the more visible signs of enthusiasm from a do-it-yourself base of Web fans. Their support doesn't show up in public opinion polls, but it's unmatched among presidential candidates in its passion.

...

The supporters have an entrepreneurial drive and get their political news from Internet sources outside the mainstream media, especially blogs and news aggregators that rely on popular vote to determine news value.

That same spirit inspires them to canvass parade routes in 100-degree heat, argue campaign strategy in two-hour meetings or paint the roof of a Manhattan apartment building.

This is what it will take if this guy is going to win. Real people doing real things. A driveing force on the net is just on the net. In so many places, especially in the bible belt hearltand are taking the computers and the internet out of their schools. Mainstream Christian conservatives claiming its the "web of the devil's lies." Come on, we gotta get those people to see those billboards. We gotta get out and talk to those real people, in the real world. We, the real people, not just the "campaigners."

I don't think this was posted yet, but here's the Ron Paul Revolution Logo:
 
I am a supported of Ron Paul. He's definitely a step in the right direction for this country. I don't completely agree with his economic policy, and I still don't think guns should be legal (but that is completely my own opinion, and something no one will agree on); but for the most part, he's the best our country has to offer (at this time).
 
Well I don't really agree with the Libertarian economic philosophy either, but I do think gun control is a waste of time, not to mention that a major step towards tyranny is to disarm the populus. People will often say that in these times, there is no chance the people will ever need to defend themselves frmo the government, but in the last 8 years, alot has changed. Its my personal beleif that if the Dept of "Homeland Securiity" barges into your home and tries to arrest you on suspicion without a warrant or Habeus Corpus, then you have the God-given right and responsibility to shoot and kill the arresting officers.

Edit: Ok, that's not the most peaceabele option, but definitly do shoot them, but go for the good wound, render them incapacitated, then capture them and use them as leverage. ;)

PS. Don't be a dick, treat your hostages decently.
 
Last edited:
LOL, Ron Paul supporters hijack pretty much every poll in existence- except for the ones that are actually scientific. Every debate will have the same result.
 
m885 said:
LOL, Ron Paul supporters hijack pretty much every poll in existence- except for the ones that are actually scientific. Every debate will have the same result.


Care to explain that?

http://revolutioni.st/nhdebate.html

Hannity claimed that a fringe group of Ron Paul supporters were "Redialing" to fix the poll.

However... that's not the case.
The poll remembered numbers that had voted already - and denied allowing a second vote to go through (Video and photo proof on that link...)

How can these polls be "rigged" by Ron Paul supporters?
How many people do you know with unlimited numbers of cell phones to spam a txt message poll with?

At most, a person might have 3-4 messages for Ron Paul, but considering these would be 3-4 person households, the majority of them all supporting Ron Paul (we tend to be contagious...)
I don't see this as "rigging"

Sorry.

The sad thing is Ron Paul's support is real, but a lot of people don't believe it - and state, "He's the best candidate out there, but I won't vote for him because he doesn't have a chance of winning."

The scary thing is that the war mongerers that want to strip us of our rights, liberties, peace, and guns (to defend ourselves against these rights on our liberties) continue to push the idea that Ron Paul has NO real support despite the evidence.

This debate will get people talking again.
Talking and thinking is what's important right now.

Ron Paul is just a figure head.
The movement for truth, justice, and LIBERTY for all will not be going anywhere any time soon.
 
I'm not sure about Ron Paul anymore. He just seems like his idea to everything is to quit.

Al-Qaeda threat? Just give up and quit.

Iraq? Just give up and quit.

The CIA doesnt work? Just give up and quit.
 
Surrender Should Not Be an Option

by Ron Paul
Sep 04, 2007

Faced with dwindling support of the Iraq War, the warhawks are redoubling their efforts. They imply we are in Iraq attacking those who attacked us, and yet this is not the case. As we know, Saddam Hussein, though not a particularly savory character, had nothing to do with 9/11. The neo-cons claim surrender should not be an option. In the same breath they claim we were attacked because of our freedoms. Why then, are they so anxious to surrender our freedoms with legislation like the Patriot Act, a repeal of our 4th amendment rights, executive orders, and presidential signing statements? With politicians like these, who needs terrorists? Do they think if we destroy our freedoms for the terrorists they will no longer have a reason to attack us? This seems the epitome of cowardice coming from those who claim a monopoly on patriotic courage.

In any case, we have achieved the goals specified in the initial authorization. Saddam Hussein has been removed. An elected government is now in place in Iraq that meets with US approval. The only weapon of mass destruction in Iraq is our military presence. Why are we still over there? Conventional wisdom would dictate that when the "mission is accomplished", the victor goes home, and that is not considered a retreat.

They claim progress is being made and we are fighting a winnable war, but this is not a view connected with reality. We can't be sure when we kill someone over there if they were truly an insurgent or an innocent Iraqi civilian. There are as many as 650,000 deaths since the war began. The anger we incite by killing innocents creates more new insurgents than our bullets can keep up with. There are no measurable goals to be achieved at this point.

The best congressional leadership can come up with is the concept of strategic redeployment, or moving our troops around, possibly into Saudi Arabia or even, alarmingly enough, into Iran. Rather than ending this war, we could be starting another one.

The American people voted for a humble foreign policy in 2000. They voted for an end to the war in 2006. Instead of recognizing the wisdom and desire of the voters, they are chided as cowards, unwilling to defend themselves. Americans are fiercely willing to defend themselves. However, we have no stomach for indiscriminate bombing in foreign lands when our actual attackers either killed themselves on 9/11 or are still at large somewhere in a country that is neither Iraq nor Iran. Defense of our homeland is one thing. Offensive tactics overseas are quite another. Worse yet, when our newly minted enemies find their way over here, where will our troops be to defend us?

The American people have NOT gotten the government they deserve. They asked for a stronger America and peace through nonintervention, yet we have a government of deceit, inaction and one that puts us in grave danger on the international front. The American People deserve much better than this. They deserve foreign and domestic policy that doesn't require they surrender their liberties.
Daily Paul
 
Jeebus Mic said:
I'm not sure about Ron Paul anymore. He just seems like his idea to everything is to quit.

Al-Qaeda threat? Just give up and quit.

Iraq? Just give up and quit.

The CIA doesnt work? Just give up and quit.



That's not it at all...

The CIA is a threat to our national security - they destabilize nations and CREATE the threats of Al-Qaeda, etc al.
They are not a constitutional aspect of the government if they subvert national security.

They need to go away.

Iraq wasn't something that involved us to begin with. We should never have gone so we shouldn't stay.
It isn't giving up because it isn't working...
What are we trying to do there?
What WERE we trying to do there?
Hold a gun (nuke) to their heads (country) and tell them to elect a leader (or else)?
How is that granting them freedom?

It's a catastrophe - not a war.
There's nothing to win.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Ron_Paul

He stands FOR things.
He doesn't give up on them either.
His voting record and speeches have been similar - if slightly refined and updated for over 20 years.


He doesn't support in doing insane things (endless repetition at the tax payers' expense when the bankrupting actions are accomplishing nothing.)
When he DOES support something though, he doesn't support giving up at all.

Surrender Should Not Be an Option

By Congressman Ron Paul

09/05/07 - --- -Faced with dwindling support of the Iraq War, the warhawks are redoubling their efforts. They imply we are in Iraq attacking those who attacked us, and yet this is not the case. As we know, Saddam Hussein, though not a particularly savory character, had nothing to do with 9/11. The neo-cons claim surrender should not be an option. In the same breath they claim we were attacked because of our freedoms. Why then, are they so anxious to surrender our freedoms with legislation like the Patriot Act, a repeal of our 4th amendment rights, executive orders, and presidential signing statements? With politicians like these, who needs terrorists? Do they think if we destroy our freedoms for the terrorists they will no longer have a reason to attack us? This seems the epitome of cowardice coming from those who claim a monopoly on patriotic courage.

In any case, we have achieved the goals specified in the initial authorization. Saddam Hussein has been removed. An elected government is now in place in Iraq that meets with US approval. The only weapon of mass destruction in Iraq is our military presence. Why are we still over there? Conventional wisdom would dictate that when the "mission is accomplished", the victor goes home, and that is not considered a retreat.

They claim progress is being made and we are fighting a winnable war, but this is not a view connected with reality. We can't be sure when we kill someone over there if they were truly an insurgent or an innocent Iraqi civilian. There are as many as 650,000 deaths since the war began. The anger we incite by killing innocents creates more new insurgents than our bullets can keep up with. There are no measurable goals to be achieved at this point.

The best congressional leadership can come up with is the concept of strategic redeployment, or moving our troops around, possibly into Saudi Arabia or even, alarmingly enough, into Iran. Rather than ending this war, we could be starting another one.

The American people voted for a humble foreign policy in 2000. They voted for an end to the war in 2006. Instead of recognizing the wisdom and desire of the voters, they are chided as cowards, unwilling to defend themselves. Americans are fiercely willing to defend themselves. However, we have no stomach for indiscriminate bombing in foreign lands when our actual attackers either killed themselves on 9/11 or are still at large somewhere in a country that is neither Iraq nor Iran. Defense of our homeland is one thing. Offensive tactics overseas are quite another. Worse yet, when our newly minted enemies find their way over here, where will our troops be to defend us?

The American people have NOT gotten the government they deserve. They asked for a stronger America and peace through nonintervention, yet we have a government of deceit, inaction and one that puts us in grave danger on the international front. The American People deserve much better than this. They deserve foreign and domestic policy that doesn't require they surrender their liberties.

http://www.house.gov/paul/
 
Al Qaeda doesn't have to be a real threat, Jeebus. Iraq never was. The CIA has never been a force of good for a single moment, nor has any other spy agency. There's no reason to allow a rogue agency to spy on the world and tell you and I that what they spend their billions of dollars of money and time on is secret. Let the Department of Defense take over the CIA's role, except they can perform it in a fully transparent manner with citizen oversight.
 
Ron Versus the Huckster
Antiwar Republican sets the terms of GOP debate

by Justin Raimondo


September 7, 2007

We know that Ron Paul did great in the Republican presidential debate sponsored by Fox News and held in Durham, New Hampshire, because how else can we explain neocon Andy McCarthy's exclamation of despair over at the National Review group blog? "Why," he cried out in anguish, "is there so much cheering for Ron Paul?"

As the last of the neoconservative dead-enders, holed up over at "The Corner," mutter darkly, Paul, the ten-term libertarian Republican congressman from Texas, is stealing the spotlight from the so-called frontrunners. For the first time in many a moon, we witnessed a genuine knock-down drag-out brawl between presidential contenders: a real mix-up in which Rep. Paul, the only antiwar candidate in the GOP pack, succeeded in framing the debate around his challenge to neocon orthodoxy on the all-important issue of foreign policy.

By the way, thanks to Fox News for their brazen hostility to Paul, which blew right back in their faces. The refusal to even acknowledge him until a good twenty minutes into the debate, and Chris Wallace's consistently sneering tone when a question finally came Paul's way, didn't stop the Texas troublemaker from stealing the show anyway.

Go here for the video, so you can hear the dripping sarcasm in Señor Wallace's voice as he characterizes the Paulian position on Iraq as "pretty simple." Okay, so you want to get out, but what – asked Wallace – about "trying to minimize the bloodbath that would certainly occur if we pull out in a hurry?"

A great deal of Paul's growing appeal as a candidate lies in his apparent inability to emulate the bromidic grammar-challenged phrases that pass for stirring political rhetoric these days. Instead, he cuts to the chase with a few razor-sharp sentences, and his answer to Wallace did not disappoint his fans:

"The people who say there will be a bloodbath are the ones who said it would be a cakewalk, it would be slam dunk, and that it would be paid for by oil. Why believe them? They've been wrong on everything they've said. Why not ask the people – (interrupted by cheers) – why not ask the people who advised not to go into the region and into the war? The war has not gone well one bit."

This is an extremely effective trope, politically, for Ron, and that is his alacrity in identifying and going after the Bad Guys, in this case, the crew that lied us into war and is now trying to blame everyone but themselves for the debacle.

As the US position in Iraq becomes more untenable by the day, awaiting only a Beirut-style attack on the Green Zone to underline the finality of our failure, the urge to hold someone responsible for what General William E. Odom rightly calls the biggest strategic disaster in our history grips large portions of the electorate.

Who lost Iraq? The question is even now being asked, and one's answer seems to largely depend on ideological and partisan allegiances.

The neocons blame Bush: he didn't follow their instructions to the letter, you see, by putting their sock puppet, Ahmed Chalabi, in charge from the beginning.

The Israelis, too, blame Bush: now they're saying that they always wanted him to go after Iran, not Iraq – perhaps he got the two countries mixed up, somehow.

McCain also blames Bush, claiming that the war has been "mismanaged," although we hear very little about how he would manage to occupy a nation of some 30 million souls that resent and have come to hate the American presence.

And we haven't even gotten to the Democrats, who, naturally, blame the Great Decider for practically everything – an inadequate explanation for the disastrous course of the past six years that they nonetheless think is sufficient for their purposes. This is a blunt sword with which to slash away at the Republicans, and yet Paul has found a sharper instrument, one that cuts to the quick and provides the electorate with what they're looking for – a truly deserving scapegoat. But we'll get to that in a minute.

Wallace also asked if Paul would "leave troops in the region to take out any al Qaeda camps that are developed after we leave," and Paul's answer, interwoven with his riff on "they were wrong then, why should we believe them now?", takes an unequivocal position – "Yes, I would leave, I would leave completely" – that outflanks any of the ostensibly antiwar Democratic candidates, and yet still resonates with the old conservative adage, "win or get out," which dates back to the Vietnam era. Paul, however, goes beyond a mere critique of the present policy, and offers a coherent and comprehensive alternative, succinctly and with real passion in his voice:

"I am less safe, the American people are less safe for this. It's the policy that is wrong. Tactical movements and shifting troops around and taking in 30 more and reducing by five, totally irrelevant. We need a new foreign policy that said we ought to mind our own business, bring our troops home, defend this country, defend – (bell sounds) – our borders…"

What's this – a presidential candidate who thinks in terms of principles? And a Republican, to boot! Good lord, we can't have that! What is he, some kind of kook?!

Wallace's fangs extended to their full length before Paul was done, and he leapt at the chance to pull off a Fox News-style on-air smear:

"So, Congressman Paul, and I'd like you to take 30 seconds to answer this, you're basically saying that we should take our marching orders from al-Qaeda? If they want us off the Arabian Peninsula, we should leave? (Laughter.)

You have thirty seconds to tell us why you're not a terrorist-loving, pro-jihadist tool of radical militant violent crazed bloodthirsty Islam and Osama bin Laden's best friend – go!

PAUL: "No! (Cheers, applause.) I'm saying – (laughter) – I'm saying we should take our marching orders from our Constitution. We should not go to war – (cheers, applause) – we should not go to war without a declaration. We should not go to war when it's an aggressive war. This is an aggressive invasion. We've committed the invasion of this war, and it's illegal under international law. That's where I take my marching orders, not from any enemy. (Cheers, boos.)"

As the reporter for National Public Radio put it:

"A mixture of boos and applause that followed indicates just how divided even a Republican audience in New Hampshire is over the issue of Iraq."

The raucous debate over Iraq was the leitmotif and high point of the New Hampshire debate, and the only antiwar candidate in the pack was right in the middle of it, expressing the doubts and anger of the thirty-six percent-plus of Republican primary voters who now think the war was a mistake and want us out.

Brownback, offered the chance to rebut Paul's apostasy, demurred, and instead babbled about Tom Friedman's idea of a "political surge," which is shorthand for acknowledging failure. Mike Huckabee, however, chose to take on Paul when Wallace asked him about the pessimistic prognosis of the latest National Intelligence Estimate, which says the "surge" won't stem the rising tide of violence nor bring about a viable government for Iraq. So why continue?

With the unerring instinct of a born crowd-pleaser, Huckabee went straight into that old riff about the Pottery Barn Rule, cribbed from Colin Powell:

"We have to continue the surge. And let me explain why, Chris. When I was a little kid, if I went into a store with my mother, she had a simple rule for me. If I picked something off the shelf of the store and I broke it, I bought it.

"I learned don't pick something off the shelf I can't afford to buy.

"Well, what we did in Iraq, we essentially broke it. It's our responsibility to do the best we can to try to fix it before we just turn away because something is at stake. Senator McCain made a great point, and let me make this clear. If there's anybody on this stage that understands the word honor, I've got to say Senator McCain understands that word – (applause, cheers) – because he has given his country a sacrifice the rest of us don't even comprehend. (Continued applause.)"

Notice that there are few, if any, facts in the above-quoted peroration. Just a cute little anecdote about him and his mom, and, furthermore, one that we have heard before, which simulates the warm fuzziness of folksy wisdom and yet has no real content. A personal anecdote and a rather odd analogy – comparing a country of 30 million living persons, with a history that predates the dawn of civilization, to an item sitting on a shelf in a store, an object to be examined, priced, bought, and sold, says more about the wrongness of this war of conquest, and more eloquently, than any of its critics have so far managed.

Honor – is there any honor in this war? Most Americans think the cost of this conflict isn't worth it – that it was a mistake to go in, and it's a mistake to stay in. That's what Ron Paul believes, too, but not the Huckster, who appeals to the heart, not the head, and who's selling the "surge" and the war aims of this administration with an emotional demagoguery that belies his mild persona. Turning to Paul, he addressed him directly:

"And on this issue, when he says we can't leave until we've left with honor, I 100 percent agree with him because, Congressman, whether or not we should have gone to Iraq is a discussion that historians can have, but we're there. We bought it because we broke it. We've got a responsibility to the honor of this country and to the honor of every man and woman who has served in Iraq and ever served in our military to not leave them with anything less than the honor that they deserve. (Cheers, applause.)"

I'm sure the Iraqi people would be very interested to learn that they have been bought: does that mean they'll all get green cards and engraved invitations to emigrate once we leave? I hardly think so. As for the honor of this country, it has suffered quite enough at the hands of warmongers and opportunists, who spared no effort in their campaign to drag us down into this quagmire – including "outing" a CIA agent, falsifying "intelligence," and engaging in systematic deception to fit the "facts" around a pre-conceived conclusion. Defending the nonexistent "honor" of these people – which is not the same as the honor of this country – isn't worth a single life, either American or Iraqi. Paul homed right in on the logical error at the core of the Huckster's honor-mongering:

"The American people didn't go in. A few people advising this administration, a small number of people called the neoconservative hijacked our foreign policy. They're responsible, not the American people. They're not responsible. We shouldn't punish them. (Cheers, applause.)"

Here's the blame-the-neocons theme popping up again, and quite opportunely. Paul's focus is admirable: he goes right for the jugular, and hits it unerringly.

Who lost Iraq? Was it us, the American people, as the neocons imply, because we didn't have the spine to stick it out?

Neocon military guru Max Boot once bemoaned the lack of American casualties in Afghanistan, because such a supposedly easy victory wouldn't prepare us for the coming slaughter: today, presumably, the bloodshed has lived up to Boot's expectations, and he must be satisfied with some 3,500 dead and 40,000-plus with major wounds. Boot's point, however, was that the American people lacked the toughness it takes to run an empire: they are too squeamish about taking casualties. This theme of our supposed moral deficiency has run through the War Party's propaganda, especially now that the Iraq war is hugely unpopular, amounting to a taunt: Are we tough enough to tough it out until victory? Do we have what it takes?

This – what might be called the argument from machismo – worked in the beginning, but has long since lost its power to intimidate. And Paul is hardly one to be intimidated by such a facile playground jibe. Instead of reacting defensively, he went on the offensive and challenged the premise behind the Huckster's emotional appeal to our collective "honor" by pointing an accusing finger at specific individuals, namely, the neocons. This "we are all to blame" collective guilt-tripping isn't going to go over very well with the electorate, for the very good reason that they know it isn't true.

The War Party conducted their own "shock and awe" campaign on American shores before Bush ever unleashed a more deadly version in the skies over Baghdad. We all heard the neocons – Richard Perle, Paul Wolfowitz, former CIA director James Woolsey, Bill Kristol, and whole platoons of laptop bombardiers tapping away in the hangars of the American Enterprise Institute – say it was going to be a "cakewalk," and that the Iraqi people would greet us as "liberators." We heard them ‘round the clock in the run-up to war, declaring, with utter certainty, that those "weapons of mass destruction" were a threat to the entire region, and a challenge to US national security that had to be answered with force. We heard these same voices echoing and elaborating on the administration's talking points, including the supposed threat posed by Iraq-inspired terrorism right here on our shores. Now this same crew is braying that we can't leave, that we have a moral obligation to clean up the mess they made, and that to fail to do so is to risk losing our honor.

What honor we had was lost the moment we went to war under false pretenses. The only way to recapture it is to retrace our steps, to conduct a thorough investigation in order to discover how and why we were deceived into invading and occupying Iraq – and, most important of all, by whom.

After all, we can't do much about our looming defeat on the battlefield, because the announced war aims of the administration never were achievable, but we can find and punish those responsible for pushing such a reckless strategy. That is the implicit program behind Paul's jibes at the neocons, and it is very effective, as indicated by the loud applause and cheering that greeted the candidate's remarks.

The Huckster, in answer, reached into his bag of emotional salves and demagogic snake-oil, and pulled out a Lincolnian trope to fit the occasion:

"Congressman, we are one nation. We can't be divided. We have to be one nation under God. That means if we make a mistake, we make it as a single country, the United States of America, not the divided states of America. (Cheers.)"

Oh really? If the head lemming goes over a cliff, the rest have a patriotic duty – or is that a compulsion? – to follow him. This is the red-state fascist Leader Principle drawn out to its logical conclusion: we must commit collective suicide – in the name of "unity." One nation, under the neocon hucksters who sold us a rotten bill of goods, indivisible, with climbing debt for all and war profits for the few. How convenient for the War Party– and how the Republicans are dreaming if they think they can get away with this, even with their alleged "base." Paul was speaking for a lot of rank-and-file Republican voters when he replied:

"No. When we make a mistake, it is the obligation of the people through their representatives to correct the mistake, not to continue the mistake! (Cheers, applause.)"

Paul wins this argument because he is here showing that the Huckster has already conceded – by acknowledging that we did indeed "break" Iraq, instead of liberating it. If we continue to occupy it, we continue the process that will lead to its final break-up: our presence makes the situation worse, not better, and this is what the Huckster is tacitly admitting. The belief that we'll somehow get a different result by engaging in the same actions is tantamount to madness. The Huckster protested that Congress is stepping into the breach, but Paul would have none of it:

"No! We've dug a hole for ourselves and we dug a hole for our party! We're losing elections and we're going down next year if we don't change it, and it has all to do with foreign policy, and we have to wake up to this fact.

"HUCKABEE: Even if we lose elections, we should not lose our honor, and that is more important to the Republican Party."

Let's stop a moment, here, and note this extraordinary admission: the Huckster is saying, well, we're going to lose anyway, so why not nominate me? If you were a Republican, would you find that very inspiring?

Aside from that, however, there's the question of how many lives the War Party's "honor" is worth. 3,500? 10,000? 50,000? These are questions the Huckster's emotion-laden appeals to American machismo are designed to quell, but they require answers. Here is Paul's answer, as, a seventy-something man standing straight as an arrow, he raised his voice over the applause and the catcalls:

"We've lost over 5,000 Americans over there in Afghanistan and Iraq and plus the civilians killed. How many more do you want to lose? How long are we going to be there? How long – what do we have to pay to save face? That's all we're doing is saving face. It's time we came home!"

Whose face are we saving? Whose honor is at stake? Not America's, because, as Paul pointed out, it wasn't the American people who wanted this war, and it wasn't they who conducted a campaign to convince themselves and the world that Iraq was a deadly threat that had to eliminated. It was the neocons who wanted this war, who planned it, who agitated for it, and who finally got their heart's desire when the bombs began to fall on Baghdad. It is their honor that is at stake – and, as we all know, the honor of those who never had any to begin with cannot be compromised.

http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=11570
 
Imagine some countries don't even have spies. If we didn't such a enormously massive military and so many thousands (millions?) of nuclear weapons to maintain, our government could cut taxes ti almost nothing and still have enough $$ to provide great and admirable benefits to society, such as healthcare to make America healhier, and education to make us smarter, and thus a real stronger America would emerge. An America of strong people, instead of strong government ruling over weaklings.
 
Kalash said:
That's not it at all...

The CIA is a threat to our national security - they destabilize nations and CREATE the threats of Al-Qaeda, etc al.
They are not a constitutional aspect of the government if they subvert national security.

They need to go away.

Iraq wasn't something that involved us to begin with. We should never have gone so we shouldn't stay.
It isn't giving up because it isn't working...
What are we trying to do there?
What WERE we trying to do there?
Hold a gun (nuke) to their heads (country) and tell them to elect a leader (or else)?
How is that granting them freedom?

It's a catastrophe - not a war.
There's nothing to win.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Ron_Paul

He stands FOR things.
He doesn't give up on them either.
His voting record and speeches have been similar - if slightly refined and updated for over 20 years.


He doesn't support in doing insane things (endless repetition at the tax payers' expense when the bankrupting actions are accomplishing nothing.)
When he DOES support something though, he doesn't support giving up at all.



I am for the FairTax, which means the IRS is gone, but getting rid of the CIA (And FBI) is just stupid.
 
At the very least the CIA and FBI are in need of serious reform. Even people who were CIA consultants during the Cold War, such as Chalmers Johnson, believe that it should be abolished. Covert operations often end up creating more blowback than they're worth.
 
we need national defense, but that fact alone doesn't mean that we should give unlimited rope to these organizations to hang us with.

reform, as opposed to abolition, is the way to go IMO.
 
^^ Yes, good link. I think we have far too much bu bureaucracy in our government. Small government doesn't have to not have intelligence, investigations, or military agencies, no does if have to do away with welfare, social security, or educational systems. It just needs to keep these things less bureaucratic. There's no need for us to have more nuclear weapons than the rest of the world combined. There is no reason for us to have 16 or more different intelligence agencies. Just as there is no need to have 200 different social security forms. I would say we don't need to advocate small government as much as we need efficient government. An efficient government would be by nature as small as possible. Ultimately, it boils down to removing the corruption.
 
Ah so only one agency should be responsible for fightinging terrorism, drugs, cyber crime, helping local, state, agencies, enforce federal law, track down fugitives (why have the marshals?), white collar crime, look through intelligence coming in, combat the mafia, combat public corruption, collect intelligence, perform operations.....

Shit, that is one giant fucking government agency!
 
Top