bingalpaws
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back to square one - WHY WRITE IT THEN?!?Blacksoulman said:
The One and Only Official CEP Ron Paul Thread
- Thread starter yummy22
- Start date
mulberryman said:
Another good question.
Blacksoulman, I'm not leaving that part out that you suggested. I've offered my explanation for said part (it allows states to overturn Roe v Wade, possibly in the situation of a president gaining line item veto like Bill Clinton briefly had in 1996, and decides to cross out the life begins at conception part, thus rendering the first part of the bill useless for the pro-lifers.). I've offered you a few similar bills that basically seek to do the same thing. "The Fetal Pain Bill", "The Smith Bill" and "The Right to Life Bill".
Anyways, glad this thread is taking a better turn.
Anyways I support hate crime legislation for the simple fact that I view a hate motivated attack as worse then a regular attack.
Example: I feel it is worse for someone to attack someone because they are a minority/gay/a certain religion etc as worse then a drunk dude fighting another drunk dude in a bar.
Blacksoulman
Bluelighter
o It tells federal courts, including the U.S. Supreme Court, that they can no longer take up abortion-related cases.
They can ban all they want. No federal case, no federal punishment.
But it is not a ban, since the federal government can not prevent or penalize abortion through the 14 amendment.
'back to square one - WHY WRITE IT THEN?!?'
As I said before, the human life definition is an attempt to persuade the state to deal with abortion as they do murder with out forcing them to do so. The federal definition serves as a starting point for states when dealing with abortion. It is a biased definition that could persuade some states to go down that path with out intervening.
They can ban all they want. No federal case, no federal punishment.
But it is not a ban, since the federal government can not prevent or penalize abortion through the 14 amendment.
'back to square one - WHY WRITE IT THEN?!?'
As I said before, the human life definition is an attempt to persuade the state to deal with abortion as they do murder with out forcing them to do so. The federal definition serves as a starting point for states when dealing with abortion. It is a biased definition that could persuade some states to go down that path with out intervening.
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o It tells each state they have the authority to set the penalty for abortion though without “exceptions” since it applies legal personhood at conception.
If the federal government had no authority then why would this matter?
Obviously the federal definition would at the very least have some effect.
1. So attempting to force states in how to deal with abortion via the federal government is okay? Especially when considering Ron Paul is a "states rights" candidate.
2. Still doesn't solve problem that you are ending a human life according to the federal government. So you are suggesting the federal government would just stand by and watch while doctors commit what they consider murder? They are willing to use federal troops to arrest MM users, but they would be okay with doctors commiting "murder".
- btw: all Democratic candidates have stated that they will never use federal troops to arrest MM users. They feel it is a states right issue.
Obama on the issue
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUze-oYsswI
3. Why wouldn't Ron Paul use federal troops/federal law to intervene when he is an admitted anti-abortion candidate? Obviously he cares enough about the issue to write this goofy law. We know from the California MM situation that the current president has made federal arrests.
4. Bingelpaws and mulberryman's statements/questions still haven't been answered IMO.
I still think you are misintrepeting the law. I really have gotten no proof on how a state could ever over rule the federal defintion of the when life beings. I certinaly cannot see how they could over rule the 14th admen right to life.
Basically I'm saying that the "life before conception" still over rules the rest of this bill no matter what.
If the federal government had no authority then why would this matter?
Obviously the federal definition would at the very least have some effect.
1. So attempting to force states in how to deal with abortion via the federal government is okay? Especially when considering Ron Paul is a "states rights" candidate.
2. Still doesn't solve problem that you are ending a human life according to the federal government. So you are suggesting the federal government would just stand by and watch while doctors commit what they consider murder? They are willing to use federal troops to arrest MM users, but they would be okay with doctors commiting "murder".
- btw: all Democratic candidates have stated that they will never use federal troops to arrest MM users. They feel it is a states right issue.
Obama on the issue
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUze-oYsswI
3. Why wouldn't Ron Paul use federal troops/federal law to intervene when he is an admitted anti-abortion candidate? Obviously he cares enough about the issue to write this goofy law. We know from the California MM situation that the current president has made federal arrests.
4. Bingelpaws and mulberryman's statements/questions still haven't been answered IMO.
I still think you are misintrepeting the law. I really have gotten no proof on how a state could ever over rule the federal defintion of the when life beings. I certinaly cannot see how they could over rule the 14th admen right to life.
Basically I'm saying that the "life before conception" still over rules the rest of this bill no matter what.
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foodisgood
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phactor said:
ok first off i propose we leave the SOL act cause everyone is just talking in circles and no one is gonna change their mind.
As far as hate crime laws, my main problem is that it is a crime of thought. Violence is violence. If i attack a black man because he is black, then i am being prosecuted for thinking black people are bad. Racism is bad and all, but you can't prosecute a person for their thoughts
Coolio
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phactor said:
Your personal opinion on a subject (even if in the majority) that has never and most likely will never have any effect on you should not be so important to the justice system that it would let someone spend years more of their life imprisoned for the same crime as a convict not branded a "hate criminal".
Blacksoulman
Bluelighter
yes, it probably would.phactor said:
Again, they are not even attempting to force states to do it because murder is not inherently federal.phactor said:
According to the Act and the conditions in which a murder is soley under state jurisdiction, yes.phactor said:
Because he has a 10 year flawless voting record in favor of the Constitution and states' rights. That is why other Congressmen gave him the nickname Dr. No. Because he has voted No on so many issues that violate the Constitution and states' rights. No other candidate has his consistant voting record.phactor said:
4. Bingelpaws and mulberryman's statements/questions still haven't been answered IMO.
The states are not overruling anything. They are deciding the penalty for murder.phactor said:
"What is so interesting about Congressman Ron Paul is you appear to have consistent principled integrity. Americans don't usually go for that.
You seem to practice what you preach. You seem to preach consistently, even though people might disagree with the message. They certainly can't argue that you are a man of consistent principles."
-Jon Stewart on the Daily Show.
BTW, you are not going to convince a libertarian that Obama supports states' rights more than Ron Paul.
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mulberryman
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phactor said:
Bingo.
With the possible exception of the good Dr. Paul, and a few others, the GOP and traditional "conservative" voters and Democrats and the progressive-minded view the importance of freedom and liberty in a very different way. Just look at the vote demographic California's Prop. 215:
One cannot help but notice that the people in "conservative" areas voted against it, while the "liberal" areas (i.e. cities) supported it.
I'd say I still support Ron Paul, regardless of his opinion on this one issue that we're all arguing over, now to the point of semantics, it would seem, at least, imho. Dr. Paul is the one and only GOP candidate that would not most certainly cause further irreparible harm to the country. Though it may be a fact that I doubt I'd ever vote Red in the national election (though I really don't trust Ms.Clinton at this point), all of the rest of the Republican candidates are nothing less than a threat to this country.
AmorRoark
Bluelight Crew
Nice to see all the Ron Paulians on Bluelight.
kong
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In Ron Paul Coins, Federal Agents Don't Trust
As if Ron Paul's supporters needed any more motivation to storm the battlements and wreak havoc on the Republican presidential primary, now comes this: the feds are trying to take away their money.
Federal agents on Wednesday raided the Evansville, Indiana headquarters of the National Organization for the Repeal of the Federal Reserve and Internal Revenue Codes (NORFED), an organization of "sound money" advocates that for the past decade has been selling what it calls Liberty Dollars, a private currency it says is backed by silver and gold stored in Idaho, with a total of more than $20 million in circulation, according to the group.
NORFED officials said yesterday that the raid occurred just as they were preparing to mail out the first batch of about 60,000 "Ron Paul Dollars," copper coins sold for $1 and decorated with the craggy visage of Paul, the libertarian Texas congressman, Iraq war opponent and sound-money advocate who has sparked a surprisingly vigorous insurgent campaign for the GOP nomination. The group says that it in recent months it already shipped out about 10,000 in silver Ron Paul dollars that sold for $20.
Bernard von NotHaus, NORFED's founder and executive director, said in an interview from his home in Miami Friday night that his employees in Evansville had received the copper dollars late last week and managed to mail out only about 3,500 of them so far. After a six-hour raid, he said, the agents left with the rest of the coins, which weighed about two tons total, as well as smaller amounts of silver Ron Paul dollars, gold Ron Paul dollars that sell for $1,000 and platinum Ron Paul dollars that sell for $2,000. There was a separate raid, NotHaus said, of Sunshine Mint in Coer D'Alene, Idaho, a company that prints the organization's coins, where von NotHaus said agents seized the huge pallets of silver and gold worth more than $1 million that the organization says back the paper certificates issued to its customers.
"They took everything, all of the computers, everything but the desks and chairs," said von NotHaus, who says he served 25 years as the mintmaster for the Royal Hawaiian Mint. "The federal government really is afraid."
The Indianapolis branch of the FBI declined to comment on the raid and referred calls to the U.S. Attorney's office for Western North Carolina in Charlotte. That office's spokeswoman, Suellen Pierce, also declined to comment. But bloggers at the libertarian Reason Foundation posted on-line a 35-page copy affidavit for a search warrant filed last week with the Western District in Asheville laying out the government's case against NORFED. Pierce said that the search warrant in the case had been accidentally made public by a court clerk and has since been sealed, under court rules.
In the affidavit, an FBI special agent states that he is investigating NORFED for federal violations including "uttering coins of gold, silver, or other metal," "making or possessing likeness of coins," mail fraud, wire fraud, money laundering and conspiracy. "The goal of NORFED is to undermine the United States government's financial systems by the issuance of a non-governmental competing currency for the purpose of repealing the Federal Reserve and Internal Revenue Code," he states.
The agent states that the investigation started two years ago. And the U.S. Mint a year ago issued a warning against using the Liberty Dollar, prompting a lawsuit by NORFED. But that has not kept Liberty Dollar fans from speculating on-line that the raid was prompted by Paul's strong campaign -- which recently raised more than $4 million in a single day -- or by the precipitous recent decline in the value of the dollar.
A Paul campaign spokeswoman, Kerri Price, said yesterday that while Paul also supports abolishing the Federal Reserve, the campaign "does not have any affiliation with Liberty Dollars at all." von NotHaus confirmed this, saying that he knows Paul because they "move in the same circles" but that he had expressly not talked with Paul about his plans for the special coins so as not to violate federal election rules.
But the coins have been another rallying point for Paul's supporters, who have asked Paul to pose for photographs with the coins on the campaign trail. Jim Forsythe, a Paul organizer in New Hampshire who ordered 150 of the copper Ron Paul dollars, said yesterday that the seizure of the coins would likely fuel more support for Paul, who scores close to double-digits in some New Hampshire polls. "People are pretty upset about this," he said. "The dollar is going down the tubes and this is something that can protect the value of their money and the Federal Reserve is threatened by that. It'll definitely fire people up."
Von NotHaus, meanwhile, is urging Liberty Dollar supporters to express their outrage by donating to Paul, saying on the group's Web site that "in light of this assault on our financial freedom, it is clear that we need Ron Paul to lead this country more than ever." He said that all of his bank accounts have been frozen and that he expects that a federal indictment will soon be in the offing, saying that "once the federal government starts an investigation like this and takes it to a grand jury, they can indict a ham sandwich." Should he be charged, he said, "I'll turn it into my golden opportunity to validate the Liberty Dollar as a legal lawful currency and save the country from a monetary collapse."
What he's most concerned about for now, though, is the thought of all his customers waiting for their Ron Paul dollars. "People aren't going to get their orders, and they aren't going to get them for a while," he said.
That is good news, of course, for those already holding the coins. On eBay, the silver Ron Paul dollars that were purchased for $20 were selling for more than $170 last night.
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2007/11/16/post_203.html?nav=rss_email/components
As if Ron Paul's supporters needed any more motivation to storm the battlements and wreak havoc on the Republican presidential primary, now comes this: the feds are trying to take away their money.
Federal agents on Wednesday raided the Evansville, Indiana headquarters of the National Organization for the Repeal of the Federal Reserve and Internal Revenue Codes (NORFED), an organization of "sound money" advocates that for the past decade has been selling what it calls Liberty Dollars, a private currency it says is backed by silver and gold stored in Idaho, with a total of more than $20 million in circulation, according to the group.
NORFED officials said yesterday that the raid occurred just as they were preparing to mail out the first batch of about 60,000 "Ron Paul Dollars," copper coins sold for $1 and decorated with the craggy visage of Paul, the libertarian Texas congressman, Iraq war opponent and sound-money advocate who has sparked a surprisingly vigorous insurgent campaign for the GOP nomination. The group says that it in recent months it already shipped out about 10,000 in silver Ron Paul dollars that sold for $20.
Bernard von NotHaus, NORFED's founder and executive director, said in an interview from his home in Miami Friday night that his employees in Evansville had received the copper dollars late last week and managed to mail out only about 3,500 of them so far. After a six-hour raid, he said, the agents left with the rest of the coins, which weighed about two tons total, as well as smaller amounts of silver Ron Paul dollars, gold Ron Paul dollars that sell for $1,000 and platinum Ron Paul dollars that sell for $2,000. There was a separate raid, NotHaus said, of Sunshine Mint in Coer D'Alene, Idaho, a company that prints the organization's coins, where von NotHaus said agents seized the huge pallets of silver and gold worth more than $1 million that the organization says back the paper certificates issued to its customers.
"They took everything, all of the computers, everything but the desks and chairs," said von NotHaus, who says he served 25 years as the mintmaster for the Royal Hawaiian Mint. "The federal government really is afraid."
The Indianapolis branch of the FBI declined to comment on the raid and referred calls to the U.S. Attorney's office for Western North Carolina in Charlotte. That office's spokeswoman, Suellen Pierce, also declined to comment. But bloggers at the libertarian Reason Foundation posted on-line a 35-page copy affidavit for a search warrant filed last week with the Western District in Asheville laying out the government's case against NORFED. Pierce said that the search warrant in the case had been accidentally made public by a court clerk and has since been sealed, under court rules.
In the affidavit, an FBI special agent states that he is investigating NORFED for federal violations including "uttering coins of gold, silver, or other metal," "making or possessing likeness of coins," mail fraud, wire fraud, money laundering and conspiracy. "The goal of NORFED is to undermine the United States government's financial systems by the issuance of a non-governmental competing currency for the purpose of repealing the Federal Reserve and Internal Revenue Code," he states.
The agent states that the investigation started two years ago. And the U.S. Mint a year ago issued a warning against using the Liberty Dollar, prompting a lawsuit by NORFED. But that has not kept Liberty Dollar fans from speculating on-line that the raid was prompted by Paul's strong campaign -- which recently raised more than $4 million in a single day -- or by the precipitous recent decline in the value of the dollar.
A Paul campaign spokeswoman, Kerri Price, said yesterday that while Paul also supports abolishing the Federal Reserve, the campaign "does not have any affiliation with Liberty Dollars at all." von NotHaus confirmed this, saying that he knows Paul because they "move in the same circles" but that he had expressly not talked with Paul about his plans for the special coins so as not to violate federal election rules.
But the coins have been another rallying point for Paul's supporters, who have asked Paul to pose for photographs with the coins on the campaign trail. Jim Forsythe, a Paul organizer in New Hampshire who ordered 150 of the copper Ron Paul dollars, said yesterday that the seizure of the coins would likely fuel more support for Paul, who scores close to double-digits in some New Hampshire polls. "People are pretty upset about this," he said. "The dollar is going down the tubes and this is something that can protect the value of their money and the Federal Reserve is threatened by that. It'll definitely fire people up."
Von NotHaus, meanwhile, is urging Liberty Dollar supporters to express their outrage by donating to Paul, saying on the group's Web site that "in light of this assault on our financial freedom, it is clear that we need Ron Paul to lead this country more than ever." He said that all of his bank accounts have been frozen and that he expects that a federal indictment will soon be in the offing, saying that "once the federal government starts an investigation like this and takes it to a grand jury, they can indict a ham sandwich." Should he be charged, he said, "I'll turn it into my golden opportunity to validate the Liberty Dollar as a legal lawful currency and save the country from a monetary collapse."
What he's most concerned about for now, though, is the thought of all his customers waiting for their Ron Paul dollars. "People aren't going to get their orders, and they aren't going to get them for a while," he said.
That is good news, of course, for those already holding the coins. On eBay, the silver Ron Paul dollars that were purchased for $20 were selling for more than $170 last night.
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2007/11/16/post_203.html?nav=rss_email/components
mulberryman
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
The people who bought those things are so stupid. They must be all those same people who "own" a piece of the moon...
The people who bought those things are so stupid. They must be all those same people who "own" a piece of the moon...
bingalpaws
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they're...stupid? Opposite of what I expected you to say mulberry, why do you think that?
Sailing High
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As an owner of three of "those things", I was upset about the Norfed raid but not entirely unhappy about the fact my coins went up in value 750%. Even if the interest in what is engraved on the coins went away entirely, it's still an ounce of .999 fine silver...
mulberryman
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You can't just go and mint your own money. If you want to buy a bunch of silver slugs or even melt down some old coins, well thats fine, but once you start putting and unelected presidential candidate's head on it you're sidestepping democracy.
bingalpaws
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you can't just go and do that.. why? Is it illegal? If that's the case, is that law just?
bingalpaws
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I mean, if the stuff's not popular then what's the worry? If it is popular, then maybe it'd end up being better than our current system. Who the hell wouldn't prefer actual backed dollars instead of the current funny-money system?
bingalpaws
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werd
