I’ll take free insulin.. where is the line.. I hope I don’t trip over any dead athletes!!
Covid-19 The New Covid Megathread v.Oh-my-cron!
- Thread starter S.J.B.
- Start date
Xorkoth
Bluelight Crew
I went ahead and read the first 8 pages of recently submitted VAERS reports (self-reported as Perforated mentioned) a while back, when someone posted the link and used the terrifying-sounding number of reports as evidence of a conspiracy. Almost all of them were "my arm hurts", or "I got dizzy and sat down for 15 minutes", stuff like that. There was not one actual serious adverse event described in those 8 pages. Obviously there are serious adverse events, I am not denying that. But if the first 8 pages contained none beyond "ouchie my arm" or "I felt crappy for a day", it makes one have to seriously question the integrity of the argument that "look, there are 20 thousand adverse events reported in VAERS".
I’m just going to interject this for the record as we are a harm reduction community with some people who like to bang drugs.
harmreductionjournal.biomedcentral.com
Anybody IVing and scared to get the vax?
Fentanyl-contaminated drugs and non-fatal overdose among people who inject drugs in Baltimore, MD - Harm Reduction Journal
Background The opioid crisis remains a major public health issue in the US and beyond. Despite rapid rises in fentanyl-related mortality nationally, little is known about the role of fentanyl in the occurrence of non-fatal overdose among people who use drugs. We examined the prevalence of...
harmreductionjournal.biomedcentral.com
Anybody IVing and scared to get the vax?
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Jabberwocky
Frumious Bandersnatch
It doesn’t say that.
It says that pre-Covid athletes suffered Sudden Cardiac Death (SCD) and that 5-22 % of these deaths were caused by myocarditis.
Then it examined the increase in myocarditis amongst different populations of pro and semi-pro athlete after they had been infected by Covid.
It postulates that younger healthier athletes are more susceptible to heart inflamation due to a stronger natural immune response causing a cytokine storm. That is, when they have contracted Covid.
Nowhere does the article mention the vaccination status of the athletes in the various studies.
Given that the vaccine reduces the severity of the infection in most people one might assume that it would reduce SCD in athletes because their immune response was less extreme - but the article mentions that even asymptomatic covid infections in athletes have been associated with myocarditis deaths.
So it seems neutral on the dangers or benefits of vaccines regarding SCD from Covid caused myocarditis in athletes. The article simply does not address that question.
Jabberwocky
Frumious Bandersnatch
I really don’t mean to be rude but every post I read on BL from somebody adopting an anti-vax position contains at least one outright blatant lie.
For illustrative purposes I’ve highlighted the one in your post. I have no idea whether you have included it intentionally and with knowledge that it is false and am certainly prepared to give the benefit of doubt that you did not. But this kind of thing is in every damn post.
The Pfizer trials data is not locked up for 70 years. There are numerous paths by which it will be made public over a fairly short period. Helpfully Pfizer lists these paths on its website:
Data & Results | Pfizer
www.pfizer.com
You will see that it will be available to various government and independent research groups to further validate. In addition to the validation it already went through to be approved in multiple countries.
Thousands of scientists around the world have already received the data because they sit on expert panels that different governments have to test and certify new drugs.
For your anti-vax Joe Average demanding access to it immediately- that’s just dumb since he has no knowledge of how to statistically analyse the data and demonstrably has an agenda against vaccination.
OpiateKiller
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2019
- Messages
- 2,370
A special investigator on YouTube is mainstream?
I’ll pray for you when that clot shot ends your life. God be with you.
OpiateKiller
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2019
- Messages
- 2,370
People are so brainwashed it’s too late. There’s not enough people left with a fucking brain to even fight for freedom and you know what.
Fuck them and fuck this world it’s doomed anyways but I’ll be damned if Bill Gates and “Dr Fauci” are the reason I go.
Here’s a nice photo of Fauci with Gates and Gates Sr in 2001.
They’ve been planning this pandemic for 20 years.
Jabberwocky
Frumious Bandersnatch
I have no information one way or the other whether Gates and Fauci may have colluded in some activity deleterious to American interests in particular or humanity in general.
Based on very extensive research and reporting in Australia by The Australian newspaper (owned by Rupert Murdoch) there seems that Fauci had numerous conflicts of interest in all his roles over the last decade or longer and channelled American resources to Chinese labs in order to beat US legal restrictions on so-called gain-of-function gene editing research on viruses.
On that evidence it is curious that he is not under FBI investigation for everything from money laundering to treason. But maybe he is: And given his positions and ambitions its easy to see his motivations for professional status and money.
But there is simply no vaguely plausible reason to implicate Gates in a conspiracy to destroy either America or humanity. He is no angel but has a good track record in investing money to improve health world wide and is single-handledly probably in the top 5 people in history responsible for preventing avoidable deaths through public health measures. Anywhere from 200-500 million lives that can be traced directly to his personal decisions to fund programs.
John’s Hopkins University has an excellent portal to all of the data substantiating this. Including both raw data in multiple countries and final peer-reviewed academic articles in dozens of journals from hundreds of academics globally. https://www.livessavedtool.org/
Being skeptical is a sign of intelligence but so is the capacity for reasoned debate relying on credible facts and coherent logic. Nobody on BL making claims like you have in the quoted post shows any capacity for or even any interest in the latter.
Every time you guys make a wild assertion somebody reasonable analyses your claim and posts a refutation citing credible data. You guys then look the other way, refuse to engage, and never respond with any kind of counterargument.
This is a strategy largely invented and perfected by the radical Left in France between about 1945 and 1968. It’s bizarre to see non-Communists using one of the key strategies of the cultural Marxists playbook.
Las Veghost grower
Bluelighter
Good luck man, the booze is a bitch to quit but when your finally sober feel so much better, I truly wish you the best man
I really don’t mean to be rude but every post I read on BL from somebody adopting an anti-vax position contains at least one outright blatant lie.
For illustrative purposes I’ve highlighted the one in your post. I have no idea whether you have included it intentionally and with knowledge that it is false and am certainly prepared to give the benefit of doubt that you did not. But this kind of thing is in every damn post.
The Pfizer trials data is not locked up for 70 years. There are numerous paths by which it will be made public over a fairly short period. Helpfully Pfizer lists these paths on its website:
Data & Results | Pfizer
You will see that it will be available to various government and independent research groups to further validate. In addition to the validation it already went through to be approved in multiple countries.
Thousands of scientists around the world have already received the data because they sit on expert panels that different governments have to test and certify new drugs.
For your anti-vax Joe Average demanding access to it immediately- that’s just dumb since he has no knowledge of how to statistically analyse the data and demonstrably has an agenda against vaccination.
Please shut up and stop lying. A simple google search shows that it's 55 years. Sorry that I got the decade wrong, but the fact remains:
Wait what? FDA wants 55 years to process FOIA request over vaccine data
Freedom of Information Act requests are rarely speedy, but when a group of scientists asked the federal government to share the data it relied upon in licensing Pfizer’s COVID-19 vaccine, the response went beyond typical bureaucratic foot-dragging.
www.reuters.com
We're expected to "trust the science" but we can't even see the science that was seen by the FDA to approve this experimental drug.
Stop lying. Just stop.
And while you're at it, stop using words you don't understand like "anti-vaxer". I'm not an anti-vaxer, I'm pro-science. You show up in every thread about covid to spew the same garbage, when you're the one who's full of garbage. Zero respect for that. If you can't debate a point without using insults then you shouldn't debate at all at leave it to the adults.
Xorkoth
Bluelight Crew
I wish everyone who is anti-COVID vaccine would quit being so fucking angry and abusive. Isn't it possible to have a conversation about the topic without telling people to shut up and accusing them of lying? Or calling them sheep in an insulting matter, or calling them stupid? Or asserting your assumed intellectual superiority? Or stating that they should all be lined up and shot (something I have seen said in here)? It's the main reason I don't participate in covid threads lately. It's depressing as fuck and so toxic.
dalpat077
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2019
- Messages
- 3,091
Are you telling us that it could be worse and we're (us ordinary folk) only seeing the tip of the iceberg? Please say it isn't so.
Jabberwocky
Frumious Bandersnatch
Now you are being nasty for no reason. I certainly don’t show up in every Covid thread. This one and perhaps one other are the only ones I’ve commented on and I doubt I have made more than 5 or 6 Covid-related posts in the last 3 months across all of BL. That’s hardly ‘spewing’. And as for ‘lying’ I actually haven’t advanced any opinions as fact on the matter of Covid anywhere. All I have done is responded to unsubstantiated claims or incoherent arguments by a couple of people (now including yourself) by referencing data or sources of data that demonstrate their statements on BL are incorrect.Please shut up and stop lying. A simple google search shows that it's 55 years. Sorry that I got the decade wrong, but the fact remains:
Wait what? FDA wants 55 years to process FOIA request over vaccine data
Freedom of Information Act requests are rarely speedy, but when a group of scientists asked the federal government to share the data it relied upon in licensing Pfizer’s COVID-19 vaccine, the response went beyond typical bureaucratic foot-dragging.
We're expected to "trust the science" but we can't even see the science that was seen by the FDA to approve this experimental drug.
Stop lying. Just stop.
And while you're at it, stop using words you don't understand like "anti-vaxer". I'm not an anti-vaxer, I'm pro-science. You show up in every thread about covid to spew the same garbage, when you're the one who's full of garbage. Zero respect for that. If you can't debate a point without using insults then you shouldn't debate at all at leave it to the adults.
I have a pretty good track record over 8,000 posts of very rarely knowingly insulting, abusing, flaming, shaming or otherwise treating people rudely or badly here. I also have an excellent reputation for being helpful and constructive. Though I admit there are a handful of times I have wilfully antagonised a troll or shitposter. That’s not the case here. So, I’ve thus far treated you and your posts respectfully per my usual style, but I have raised the fact that I find posts by people seemingly anti-vax or proposing some kind of conspiracy around Covid to rarely meet a credible standard of evidence or argument. Perhaps my standards are too high? Or unreasonable?
I just want to see civil debate on these questions which, as has been known in the West for at least 300 years, requires the free exchange of ideas and each side to acknowledge the points made my the other (and then if they wish to disagree with them. As has also been known in the West for at least 300 years formally but possibly 1,000 informally, open, rational, and civil debate is an essential element of ‘Freedom’ as commonly understood more generally. So it is definitely not me contributing to a climate of unfreedom around here.
But responding to a reasoned argument backed by credible data from another member of one’s community - whether that is BL, ‘America, or anywhere in between - with nothing more than ‘Please shut up and stop lying’ is waving the flag for unfreedom.
As for ‘spewing garbage’, I challenge you to use the quote function and post us all just two (2) full sentences from any posts I have made that you consider to meet the standard of ‘spewing garbage’. You can even quote them entirely out of context if you like. But I expect you to justify your claim they are ‘spewing garbage’.
With respect to what you seem to be trying to currently prove in this thread - that the raw Pfizer data on drug trials will be unavailable for independent scrutiny for 55 years - is not credible.
You may be correct that, using an adversarial court process via FOI legislation to access 329,000 pages of raw information that clearly goes beyond the before and after medical data relating to all the test subjects, applicants are failing to obtain what they want. That’s a bureaucratic issue and extremely common in lots of countries in many different departments. I’ve made many FOI requests here and there is always a delay while appropriately qualified and experienced human being review the documents and redact commercial-in-confidence data and data that impacts the right-to-privacy of individuals. 55 years sounds pretty ridiculous but it’s probably also an ambit claim on the part of the FDA lawyers. In court one always asks for much more than one would be happy with in order to have stuff to bargain away and convince the judge one is acting in good faith.
Your point relates only to the FDA. There are other routes to obtaining the data, including from Pfizer directly. As I pointed out in my post, Pfizer is committed to sharing trials data through numerous channels with availability varying according to the channel. If you have evidence that Pfizer intends to treat the Covid vaccine data differently than it treats all other drug trials data I’d be keen to see it. That would be a red flag there is more than meets the eye going on here,
Pickledlemons
Bluelighter
I appreciate your patience. I however am really concerned by all this misinformation and conspiracy theories floating around. Bluelight is supposed to be a harm reduction website, but every other thread on this subforum is full of anti-vaxxers, is that really in the spirit of bluelight? And do you really think you can reason people out of beliefs they didn't reason themselves into? I really wish the answer was yes but I am not so sure. Maybe giving these people a spawning ground is bad thing.
Jabberwocky
Frumious Bandersnatch
Thanks. It is a serious issue I think. There is a significant part of the membership that spend all of their time in CEPS advancing conspiracy theories or simply misinformation on various issues and who are, in many cases, never seen discussing drugs let alone contributing to our mission of providing a non-judgemental forum for the provision of harm reduction advice. There have actually been a number of quite active CEPS posters who have actively attempted to judge and shame drug use and users of various types.
It seems to have been the long term strategy of BL that people ‘come for the harm reduction but stay for the community’ which consists in large part of The Lounge and CEPS. Certainly a valid strategy but it does seem that many people entirely skipped the first bit and joined exclusively for the community which they frequently insist should be governed by the libertarian principle of unfettered free speech without consequence of any kind.
Personally I reckon those parts of the Forum should be hidden from the public and entry to them made a privilege given members who have actively contributed to or gratefully benefitted from the harm reduction forums.
Xorkoth
Bluelight Crew
While I agree with some of these points, I just want to point out that Foreigner does participate throughout the forum and in fact was on staff and if I recall was even an admin for a time years back. Doesn't excuse the nastiness from a few posts back, but he does participate positively across the site. I realize you weren't talking about him specifically but I thought to point it out anyway.
I struggle with this topic myself, but the fact is a lot of people believe this whole thing is a vast conspiracy spanning hundreds of thousands of doctors and scientists. If we shut it down, can we change minds or do we just provide an environment for people who already agree to feel unthreatened? Do we just contribute to the sense that they're right? How many places on the Internet are there that don't censor one side or the other and create an echo chamber? To me, it provides an opportunity to show both sides and whoever is reading this (the vast majority of people reading this are not posting here) can learn something about the different viewpoints people have, based on how well they've presented their arguments. At least that's the intent.
I struggle with this topic myself, but the fact is a lot of people believe this whole thing is a vast conspiracy spanning hundreds of thousands of doctors and scientists. If we shut it down, can we change minds or do we just provide an environment for people who already agree to feel unthreatened? Do we just contribute to the sense that they're right? How many places on the Internet are there that don't censor one side or the other and create an echo chamber? To me, it provides an opportunity to show both sides and whoever is reading this (the vast majority of people reading this are not posting here) can learn something about the different viewpoints people have, based on how well they've presented their arguments. At least that's the intent.
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Jabberwocky
Frumious Bandersnatch
Thanks @Xorkoth. I agree with your points regarding @Foreigner ‘s broader contributions to BL and to be clear I was speaking in general about some CEPS habitues and not referring to him.
Jabberwocky
Frumious Bandersnatch
i have this same issue. its why i try and fight in these threads when i have the time and patience.
i've argued the harm reduction line. i think we at least need to make clear that this stance is not that taken by BL.
one problem would be that if we take this out of CEPS, the same people will infect the rest of the site. i've had to remove posts from anti vaxxers in H&R because they were querying whether drug related deaths may have been caused by covid vaccines. i'd prefer they keep in here than do that.
sadly not.
Kaden_Nite
Bluelight Crew
Okay, so let's scroll endlessly for the 'facts' and not trust the first thing that Google's biased algorithm steers us to..
Unless it's something that you can twist to support your point. In that case: "it's right there in front of you, on Google, so shut up, you liar".
It's a madhouse, Foreigner. These people are largely beyond redemption and there is absolutely no point in getting caught up with their ignorance any more. I still have faith that miracles can happen though, that something completely unexpected could occur that wasn't foreseen by the conspirators. And if not, so be it.. then this world really would be a basketcase and I'd die happily knowing that too.