Covid-19 The New Covid Megathread v.Oh-my-cron!

[-=SS=-]

Not only are you wrong (consistently though), but how apathetic is it to say that theres *only* a few million dead from this.

The 5.46 million figure is straight from the counter that google provides. It's even on your fucking graph. Your figure was an estimate, as it clearly states on the graph. Mine is the actual death count.

A pandemic with a <0.1% total death toll is fucking pathetic quite frankly. People die all the time. In fact more people are dying right now from lack of treatment for other health conditions, and suicide, than are dying of covid in the UK. Not only that but the future deaths that will be indirectly caused by the measures like lock-downs will vastly outweigh the deaths from the actual virus.

That is if you accept the 5.46 million figure as legitimate anyway. In my opinion it is vastly over exaggerated through the use of creative accounting via the testing regime. Testing is being used as a diagnosis anyway, which it shouldn't be, hence why Boris Johnson said today we've just had the highest daily case rate ever (OMG!!).. and yet.. hospitalizations are low, deaths are low, and nobody is falling over in the street.

Nothing about the global response to this has been proportionate. Hysterics, from both public and politicians.

 

[Electrum1]

That is if you accept the 5.46 million figure as legitimate anyway. In my opinion it is vastly over exaggerated through the use of creative accounting via the testing regime. Testing is being used as a diagnosis anyway, which it shouldn't be

Nobody ever mentions that none of the positive tests are being sent to labs for confirmation by culturing it in a petri dish or however they normally confirmed positives before Covid.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Nobody ever mentions that none of the positive tests are being sent to labs for confirmation by culturing it in a petri dish or however they normally confirmed positives before Covid.

erm, excuse me, how the hell do you think all the sequences on NCBI/GISAID/etc are being produced?

this has literally been done from day 1. in the UK its standard protocol, not for all samples but a significant proportion. i've written fucking code to be used in products that literally do this.

edit to clarify: i took your post as saying that no positive tests are having further validation done. they are, they are being sequenced too, lots of times, its how we are tracking viral evolution for the first time ever. which would be so fucking cool if people weren't dying.

 

[Electrum1]

erm, excuse me, how the hell do you think all the sequences on NCBI/GISAID/etc are being produced?

this has literally been done from day 1. in the UK its standard protocol, not for all samples but a significant proportion. i've written fucking code to be used in products that literally do this.

edit to clarify: i took your post as saying that no positive tests are having further validation done. they are, they are being sequenced too, lots of times, its how we are tracking viral evolution for the first time ever. which would be so fucking cool if people weren't dying.

Yeah, I just meant all the positive tests that people are buying at stores and then submitting the results online to whatever database. Same for tests that people get when entering hospitals in the U.S.

 

[-=SS=-]

Yeah, I just meant all the positive tests that people are buying at stores and then submitting the results online to whatever database. Same for tests that people get when entering hospitals in the U.S.

Both the lateral flow tests and PCR do not detect the presence of a virus directly. Both rely on inferring the presence of a virus based on our conceptual understanding, not actually literally detecting virus particles in sample.

Lateral flow tests for viral proteins said to belong to viral particles, PCR amplifies genetic material and then is matched against the genomic code of what they claim is from a viral particle. In both cases they ultimately come back to the fundamental science of viral isolation and characterisation. If the original definition of the viral particle is wrong, then the tests are useless.

In both cases the genetic material and proteins said to be associated with a virus could quite easily be from a physiological molecular process that occurs during a time of illness, and not from one specific cause i.e. a virus. At the end of the day it's theory and largely belief. The scale at which these things takes place on makes it impossible for us to accurately see what is really occurring. All the science is done indirectly, from visualization with static electron microscopy imaging to the viral isolation methodology. Indirect methods is basically shooting in the dark and hoping you are hitting what you want to hit.

 

[Yourbaker]

For the first time ever I have found an article on MSM that agrees with my vaccine by choice position and has numbers that agree with numbers I have posted from early on.

Carson Jerema: Forget lockdowns — the pandemic endgame is already here

a.msn.com

"Vaccines do reduce your chance of being infected, and when a vaccinated person does catch COVID, as increasing studies have shown, they spread it less efficiently and are infectious for a shorter period of time. The vaccinated are also, crucially, much less likely to be admitted to hospital. Data from Ontario shows that the vaccinated are 83 per cent less likely to be hospitalized than the unvaccinated, and 95 per cent less likely to be admitted to an ICU.

But the chance of being infected despite vaccination has never been zero and effectiveness does wane over time, facts politicians ignored until effectiveness against infection plummeted against Omicron. Even though the new variant still doesn’t quite pass freely among the vaccinated, it passes freely enough to mock any notion that herd immunity or “COVID zero” are actually achievable, or that vaccine mandates are logical policy.

What should have been emphasized from the start is simply that vaccination slows the spread of the disease and reduces the chance of severe illness and death. “Get the shot to reduce the spread” or “get the shot to stay healthy” doesn’t promise a return to pre-pandemic life, but it does clarify what is possible."

This I have said from day 1, somehow it has taken this long for media to begin reporting obvious truth.

I am concerned that it took until the system was completely overwhelmed at testing stage but holding at the hospital, and visible to everyone. I expect better from media that used to report to the people for the people. I realize we lost control of the large corporations long ago they work for money not the people but the media used to be on the peoples side.

The hit to small businesses has been horrifying, governments have dumped so much manufactured panic money into our economies we have hit hyper inflation. I don't think the world will recover economically at this point so hopefully we can restart with a better economic system without to much war.

 

[Jabberwocky]

based on your definition @-=SS=- all science is done indirectly.

you don't ever directly perceive anything, its an interpretation of electrical signals and a fuckton of processes. most laws of physics that we use are uninstantiated (Newton's 1st is the usual example, but the schrodinger equation, basically everything really unless we finally get a smooth spherical cow in a vacuum). that doesn't mean they don't work, it means that we are able to make deductions based on indirect methods. i could go on with examples but i hope i've made my point.

what we have is a set of data points and a model that explains that. the viral model explains the data so much better than any other model that there literally isn't another decent candidate model for explaining these datapoints. this is why the existence of viruses is not considered controversial.

even constructive empiricists, who you seem to borrow heavily from whether knowingly or not, admit the existence of viruses.

if you have a model that explains the present data better. every single data point ever collected about covid, the flu, ebola, equine encaphalosis, every single virus. then present it. if you do not, then you're not really claiming anything. instead of calling the hypothesised structure underlying our observations a virus, you are just calling it not a virus. you write as if you are making an ontological or empirical claim but as far as i can tell you don't actually have anything concrete.

furthermore, your points go for every single scientific theory. which i think you know because you've been very derogatory about a lot of other areas of science. formally science doesn't make existence claims, we end up making them in every day scientific discussions because saying 'the pattern that instantiates x sets of axioms' is too long winded for real discussion.

 

[-=SS=-]

based on your definition all science is done indirectly.

you don't ever directly perceive anything, its an interpretation of electrical signals and a fuckton of processes..

I'm fully aware of the philosophical and ontological discussion that can be had about ourselves, but you know what I was getting at with my point. When it comes to viruses they exist at a scale that we can't visually see or manipulate in real-time, at a human scale. Even something as etheric as gravity or magnetism we can visualize and manipulate at the human scale, even if we're not entirely sure what they are or the mechanics of it.

The chain of reality with viruses is broken. We can't see them in-vivo or in real-time. We only get grainy, fuzzy, black and white, static images that are the result of electron bombardment and preparation of the sample in a special way. We have no way of proving that what is presented is actually a virus and not something else, because we can't see the reality of its life situation, we can only infer based on our concepts. Hence why when it comes to distinguishing between viral particles and extra-cellular vesicles even the experts are at war among themselves over what is and what isn't one or the other.

The same problem exists in astronomy and astrophysics, and what we think we're seeing out in space versus what is actually there. The scale is simply beyond our reach. So we end up with things like black holes and neutron stars that violate basic physics, and my favorite, dark matter.. something which is required to balance out the mathematics of the standard model but which can't be detected.

Dark matter, like viruses, are convenient mechanisms to ensure continual funding. And in the case of pharmaceuticals, an endless stream of revenue.

 

[Zopiclone bandit]

Now @chinup can finally STFU.

Dr. Robert Malone is the inventor of the nine original mRNA vaccine patents, which were originally filed in 1989 (including both the idea of mRNA vaccines and the original proof of principle experiments) and RNA transfection. Dr. Malone, has close to 100 peer-reviewed publications which have been cited over 12,000 times. Since January 2020, Dr. Malone has been leading a large team focused on clinical research design, drug development, computer modeling and mechanisms of action of repurposed drugs for the treatment of COVID-19. Dr. Malone is the Medical Director of The Unity Project, a group of 300 organizations across the US standing against mandated COVID vaccines for children. He is also the President of the Global Covid Summit, an organization of over 16,000 doctors and scientists committed to speaking truth to power about COVID pandemic research and treatment

JRE #1757 - Dr. Robert Malone, MD

Dr. Robert Malone is the inventor of the nine original mRNA vaccine patents, which were originally filed in 1989 (including both the idea of mRNA vaccines and the original proof of principle experimen

rumble.com

 

[F.U.B.A.R.]

Now @chinup can finally STFU.

Dr. Robert Malone is the inventor of the nine original mRNA vaccine patents, which were originally filed in 1989 (including both the idea of mRNA vaccines and the original proof of principle experiments) and RNA transfection. Dr. Malone, has close to 100 peer-reviewed publications which have been cited over 12,000 times. Since January 2020, Dr. Malone has been leading a large team focused on clinical research design, drug development, computer modeling and mechanisms of action of repurposed drugs for the treatment of COVID-19. Dr. Malone is the Medical Director of The Unity Project, a group of 300 organizations across the US standing against mandated COVID vaccines for children. He is also the President of the Global Covid Summit, an organization of over 16,000 doctors and scientists committed to speaking truth to power about COVID pandemic research and treatment

JRE #1757 - Dr. Robert Malone, MD

Dr. Robert Malone is the inventor of the nine original mRNA vaccine patents, which were originally filed in 1989 (including both the idea of mRNA vaccines and the original proof of principle experimen

rumble.com

Fight!

 

[Zopiclone bandit]

That's a deadly blow I think I delivered,

 

[Jabberwocky]

We have no way of proving that what is presented is actually a virus and not something else, because we can't see the reality of its life situation, we can only infer based on our concepts. Hence why when it comes to distinguishing between viral particles and extra-cellular vesicles even the experts are at war among themselves over what is and what isn't one or the other.

that was the point of my post. i agreed that we had no way, but in most cases, there is at least a something else being presented and thus a controversy. you are not presenting something else.

scientists are not at war about the distinction between extra cellular vesicles and viral particles. the one quote you found suggesting this was in a very specific context- namely extracellular vesicles containing genetic material of specific viruses during infection by those visues. there being one context in which two things are difficult to distinguish doesn't mean that we can infer that they are the same. that seems to be your argument.


i personally have directly perceived viruses in vivo many many times. so have you, but you choose to deny it.

i threw you a lifeline by pointing out that there are philosophers. good ones, who have spent their entire careers making your position coherent. they reject astrophysics but even they drew the line at viruses.

Now @chinup can finally STFU.

Malone is a charlatan. for the billionth time he did not invent mRNA vaccines. we would still have them without him. having done good science in the past isn't a guarantee of retaining integrity today.

joe rogan has blood on his hands at this point. he knows what he is doing, but he chose to make money by abusing his platform.

you haven't delivered any blow. you've posted a podcast. put your argument in your own words please.

 

[F.U.B.A.R.]

Joe Rogan is a dick.

OK, he smokes weed and does dmt,

But he's still a dick.

 

[Deleted member 521610]

that was the point of my post. i agreed that we had no way, but in most cases, there is at least a something else being presented and thus a controversy. you are not presenting something else.

scientists are not at war about the distinction between extra cellular vesicles and viral particles. the one quote you found suggesting this was in a very specific context- namely extracellular vesicles containing genetic material of specific viruses during infection by those visues. there being one context in which two things are difficult to distinguish doesn't mean that we can infer that they are the same. that seems to be your argument.


i personally have directly perceived viruses in vivo many many times. so have you, but you choose to deny it.

i threw you a lifeline by pointing out that there are philosophers. good ones, who have spent their entire careers making your position coherent. they reject astrophysics but even they drew the line at viruses.




Malone is a charlatan. for the billionth time he did not invent mRNA vaccines. we would still have them without him. having done good science in the past isn't a guarantee of retaining integrity today.

joe rogan has blood on his hands at this point. he knows what he is doing, but he chose to make money by abusing his platform.

you haven't delivered any blow. you've posted a podcast. put your argument in your own words please.

pzifer and anybody supporting this bs vaccine has blood on their hands. The mainstream narrative is quickly collapsing.

 

[maassive]

Now @chinup can finally STFU.

STFU about what exactly?

It only takes a bit research to see this guy's obvious conflicts of interest.

IE. Right off the bat he's peddling a new COVID treatment that he claims to single handedly discover - a combination of existing heartburn medicine Pepsid and anti-inflammatory drug Celecoxib (Famcox)

Looking at a Famcox research article written by Dr. Malone himself (https://assets.researchsquare.com/files/rs-526394/v1/ac35c41d-dfc6-4949-acd8-2d9106e495ec.pdf) it shows that his research is being financed by none other than: Leidos (defence, and biotech company) Alchem corporation (Chemical and Drug manufacture), Evergreen Therapeutics (Pharmaceutical Manufacturing) Chrysalis Biotherapeutics (Biotech company) Reliance Vaccines, Puma Biotechnology (Biotech company) Nanobiosym (Biotech company)

For all the village idiots here railing against "Big Pharma" deception, this guy is literally deep in the pockets of the very same

 

[-=SS=-]

i personally have directly perceived viruses in vivo many many times. so have you, but you choose to deny it.

No you haven't. Nor have I or anyone else. Viruses have never been observed in-vivo, in living things directly. That is a fact. They have only ever been observed in-vitro, from the resulting molecular debry of cell cultures that used a sample (supposedly containing a virus).

..there are philosophers. good ones, who have spent their entire careers making your position coherent. they reject astrophysics but even they drew the line at viruses.

Philosophers are not arbiters of truth any more than scientists are. We are all fallible human beings who make mistakes and project our fears on to the world we imagine we see. Fear of illness and death is hardwired into our biology, so it's only natural that we look to project that fear externally. It's not exactly a coincidence that we project it on to something we can't see, in much the same way a small child thinks they see monsters in the darkness and shadows of their bedroom.

The Greek philosophers are at the root of the main scientific neurosis we have. The obsession with matter, with molecular/atomistic thinking, thinking that we can reduce everything down to its smallest constituent parts and somehow understand the totality of the thing it comprises. It's nonsense.

Right down the line into modern medicine and 'heath' this delusion persists. Right now we have people under 60 taking gene therapy shots for something they are at no risk from, because they believe in this molecular boogeyman, whilst they continue to stuff their faces with absolute garbage and indulge in several vices that leave them wide open to degeneration. People, including you, literally can not see the forest from the trees.

 

[F.U.B.A.R.]

That's a deadly blow I think I delivered,

It wasn't. It was shit...

 

[AutoTripper]

Joe Rogan is a stupid unconscious pawn. He's SO stupid, he doesn't even "need to know" what he is doing and who he works for. Total total dumbass, perfect for task.

Novak Djokovic is a fantastic human being, IMO. One of the very very few in public eye who makes the grade, and has forever set superb example, was an inspiration to me personally actually, haha, "growing up", the dude's younger than me, but I saw pure light in him, humbleness, sheer honesty.

Great human being. Very clever man.

Not stupid! Good....on.....him!

Australians have lost their heads basically. They have been kidknapped.

The world is mad now for sure, job done.

Watch the fuss to come now....Novak this, Novak that....

 

[Jabberwocky]

No you haven't. Nor have I or anyone else. Viruses have never been observed in-vivo, in living things directly. That is a fact. They have only ever been observed in-vitro, from the resulting molecular debry of cell cultures that used a sample (supposedly containing a virus).

i think perception of a fever, headache, etc is as valid perception as my eyes, i am a living thing. its as reaosnable as assuming i'm typing on a keyboard. otherwise we are basically stuck in 'we don't know we're not a brain in a vat' territory and you can't reason meaningfully from there.

very early evolution doesn't work without viruses. you can't have an extracellular vesicle without a cell. and you can't have a cell without something simpler first. so viruses have huge explanatory power that no other explanation provides.

Philosophers are not arbiters of truth any more than scientists are

i didn't claim they were. i just said that people who have put a lot of effort into making what you say into a coherent theory of science have to admit the existence of viruses. i.e. even people who grant your premises, deny your inferences and conclusions. as they have developed a mature philosphy of science from their explorations and discussed it at length, i will prefer their arguments to yours.

i actually disagree with constructive empiricism so i'd never claim it as the truth. i'd never claim anything as the truth outside of logic, or as a linguistic shortcut, as should be clear from the way i argue, if you are familiar with any philosophy of science at all, i am an ontic structural realist.

 

[maassive]

The same problem exists in astronomy and astrophysics, and what we think we're seeing out in space versus what is actually there. The scale is simply beyond our reach. So we end up with things like black holes and neutron stars that violate basic physics, and my favorite, dark matter.. something which is required to balance out the mathematics of the standard model but which can't be detected.

I find it hilarious how these luddites don't see the irony that the technological advances made possible by the very physics they ridicule are giving them the means to spew pseudo anti-science drivel like this.