US Politics The Mueller Investigation - report is out

[tathra]

After January, there's a good chance we'll seat a house with a Democratic majority. Then that's going to open up an entire new investigation.

we can only hope

 

[JGrimez]

What's the crime though? Investigation into what?
None of the bogus indictments relate to any of the Trump team interfering or colluding with Russians to interfere in the elections.
This investigation started with such a broad scope that they said AND if they find evidence of any other crimes they will be used. They found nothing on Trump.
Flynn was charged for lying about a legal phonecall. Padaopolous served 2 weeks in jail for lying to the FBI. This is not "Russian collusion".

The real story (and what all this was intended to deflect from) is the Australian & UK governments colluding with the Obama and Clinton administrations to interfere in the 2016 elections.

Damn. Did you pull all those tweets together, or are they compiled somewhere you can link us to? I have others that would be interested. Thanks.

I just compiled them. I haven't been keeping on top of it but he's made a ton of tweets since then.

 

[TheLoveBandit]

*Your

Score one for the Grammar Nazi Communist (?). I'd worked up responses to this post a few times, but always left them unsent. I'm thinking it had to do with a high confidence I'd make a worse stumble than that.

"investigation based on vapors"? What does that mean?
The people from trump's campaign that have already been jailed weren't engaging in criminal activities?

I think i put the "vapors" in the wrong thread. It was meant to be a different reply, but ... I suck at managing two dozen open tabs at once.

To the point, how many of those jailed (rightfully so, IMO, for criminal behaviour) would have gone uninvestigated were it not for their association with Trump? More importantly, how many charges on ANYONE have pointed to TRUMP vs being sentenced based on their own activities?

Surely if there is nothing to investigate, it would be all wrapped up by now?

Is it not equally valid to state it as "Surely if they found anything, they'd have presented it by now?"

I tend to think that a president trying to shut down an investigation into his own campaign's links to hostile foreign agents is probably trying to obstruct justice. I don't think that is an unreasonable assumption.

There's a difference between shutting it down (or, more aptly trying to prevent it from happening) in an effort to keep your own misdeeds hidden VS letting it run but expecting a reasonably speedy process to find dirt or move on. Should investigations be allowed to run indefinitely, until they find something or can create an implication? Or should they be permitted free reign to explore any and all possibilities (aside from timing, where has the investigation been constrained?), with the expectation of finding something or not? How long has the investigation been open? How long did the FBI investigate Hillary's servers? How long did the FBI investigate Ted Kennedy's drowned friend? How long is reasonable? How long would you consider it reasonable if you found yourself under investigation?

Because Trump is both the subject of the investigation AND the guy (somewhat) in control over it's scope and duration, it's an odd position for him to be in. Damned if he lets it run forever, damned if he asks for it to bring something forth or close up shop. In America, due process and the expectation of a reasonable investigation, leads some people to think there is a time limit to shut up or put up from the FBI. Others, may think that no matter how long it takes, the investigation should remain open until it finds something. Therein lies a problem - perpetual investigation to find issues...but if they can't be found in the first 6..12...??? months then really, is there anything to find?

At some point, those who say "Keep looking, there has to be something" need to answer to what is their motivations? Hating Trump, or wanting laws respected? Hating Trump may have no end for some people. Respecting laws means respecting citizens' rights, to include NOT being investigated indefinitely without cause.

 

[JGrimez]

Andrew McCabe committed the same crime that Flynn and Papa did (lying to the FBI) and he walked free with the left saying he should keep his pension.

 

[Xorkoth]

There's a difference between shutting it down (or, more aptly trying to prevent it from happening) in an effort to keep your own misdeeds hidden VS letting it run but expecting a reasonably speedy process to find dirt or move on. Should investigations be allowed to run indefinitely, until they find something or can create an implication? Or should they be permitted free reign to explore any and all possibilities (aside from timing, where has the investigation been constrained?), with the expectation of finding something or not? How long has the investigation been open? How long did the FBI investigate Hillary's servers? How long did the FBI investigate Ted Kennedy's drowned friend? How long is reasonable? How long would you consider it reasonable if you found yourself under investigation?

There are high-profile criminal investigations that run years. If the allegations are to be believed, this is one of the biggest conspiracy/etc cases of all time, involving the global superpowers and influencing of elections, and collusion. I would expect that you would need time to build your case, and you couldn't reveal anything until you were ready to make the whole house of cards crumble. Though I'll admit that the investigation into Hillary's servers was nothing like this.

 

[JessFR]

Seems to me the answer to "how long should it be allowed to run for" is obvious. It should be allowed to continue so long as trumps still president.

EDIT: Just to be clear, I'm not saying it SHOULD go that long. Just that it shouldn't be forced to stop so long as it's still potentially relevant.

 

[|~~ANT~~|]

^How much money has this investigation cost so far and what has it accomplished?

 

[Xorkoth]

A mere drop in the bucket compared to things like military spending and the recent tax laws.

This article says $17 million. This is absolutely nothing when you think about the budgets being worked with. To me the "but it's a waste of money!" argument is weak. If the people investigating think there is a reason to keep going, $17 million is no reason to abandon it. Especially if it ends up bringing down a conspiracy as is alleged. Wouldn't you rather, say, even $30 million by the time it's done be spent, even if it turns up nothing, than it being canceled but the end result would have been validating the claims against Trump as true? $30 million is less than 8 cents per taxpayer.

 

[|~~ANT~~|]

With all due respect, comparing the cost to total yearly military spending is absurd.

This is absolutely nothing when you think about the budgets being worked with.

Again, that is not a sensible way to frame it. This is a single investigation. It's not the budget for the FBI...

Wouldn't you rather, say, even $30 million by the time it's done be spent, even if it turns up nothing, than it being canceled but the end result would have been validating the claims against Trump as true?

They're not going to find anything. How long has the investigation been going on, now... nearly 18 months?

It's a waste of money... whether or not it's a waste of a LOT of money is irrelevant. It is in the tens of millions already... and it has occupied the time of an enormous amount of government agents / officials who could actually be doing something useful.

Your attitude seems to be that the investigation should go on for years and spend tens of millions of dollars... even if it fails to prove anything? How is that not a waste of money?

 

[Captain.Heroin]

Please fire Sessions. Do it Trump!

 

[Xorkoth]

You don't even know if they HAVE found anything. You have to get all your ducks in a row before pulling the trigger on something that involves the most powerful people and governments in the world. For all we know next month the investigation could bring the whole thing down.

What about the fact that $30 million is only 8 cents per taxpayer? And right now the total cost is about half that.

If it ends up turning up nothing, I won't lose sleep over it. I will consider it money well spent to investigate very serious claims.

 

[|~~ANT~~|]

If they'd found anything significant, we'd know about it by now. They're reaching. It's got to be embarrassing to pump that much money into a single investigation and turn up nothing. So, they keep going, hoping to find something. But Trump's too smart and he's been a shark too long to leave a trail that the FBI can follow. They're not going to get him, even if he did anything... 8 cents isn't a sensible way to frame the cost of this investigation. I'm not saying it's a significant amount of taxpayers money. I'm saying it's a waste of money. "How much money are they wasting?" is a different question than "Are they wasting money?" I'm not going to lose any sleep, either, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to conclude that 30 million dollars over 3 years that results in nothing is money well spent.

 

[Xorkoth]

Fair. But I think it's a fallacy to conclude that we'd know about it by now if they had anything. Look at any criminal investigation... the investigators do not share details about the case until the trigger has been pulled. There are FBI investigations that have gone on much longer than 18 months. I mean the allegations involve the leader of Russia, it's hardly something that has to be easy to investigate.

The investigation has actually already resulted in a variety of convictions towards individuals in Trump's administration.

 

[JGrimez]

Look at how anything damaging to Trump was getting leaked not long ago.

Midterms are approaching and Dems are in danger of the losing the House and getting creamed in the Senate.

DON'T YOU THINK IT'S A GOOD TIME FOR MUELLER TO DROP (OR LEAK) SOMETHING DAMAGING?

Prove the "Russian collusion" Bob - you know like the time you personally delivered uranium to Russians and turned a blind eye when they were illegally exporting yellowcake.

 

[JGrimez]

"a variety of convictions" I JUST said that McCabe committed the same crime as Flynn & Papa, and walked free, and nobody gives a shit.

"but muh Trump convictions".

What happened to Russia hacking the DNC servers? That used to be the smoking gun. This investigation is such obvious bullshit.

 

[Xorkoth]

Well, if Mueller is truly not partisan and is trying to do a good job... then he wouldn't leak anything regardless of whether the midterms are happening or not.

 

[|~~ANT~~|]

The investigation has actually already resulted in a variety of convictions towards individuals in Trump's administration.

If any presidential administration was investigated this thoroughly, there would be a variety of convictions. What I mean by they haven't found anything is: they haven't found anything significant pertaining to the actual purpose of their investigation... If you investigate Marlon Brando for child abuse and you discover along the way that he has one too many cats for his local council, that's not an indication that the child abuse investigation was successful... The convictions haven't accomplished anything; they certainly haven't accomplished enough to justify millions of dollars and a massive 18 month FBI investigation.

I think it's a fallacy to conclude that we'd know about it by now if they had anything. Look at any criminal investigation... the investigators do not share details about the case until the trigger has been pulled.

If they don't share details until the end, why do we know about the "variety of convictions". As soon as they have something concrete on Trump, we will know about it. But, like I said, that's not going to happen.

 

[TheLoveBandit]

Seems to me the answer to "how long should it be allowed to run for" is obvious. It should be allowed to continue so long as trumps still president.

EDIT: Just to be clear, I'm not saying it SHOULD go that long. Just that it shouldn't be forced to stop so long as it's still potentially relevant.

So, worst case is he gets a second term. We let the investigation run 8 yrs without anything? That's your take? And, at the end of those 8 yrs, if nothing is found, we close it up and say 'moving on'? Just because it is 'relevant' isn't justification for the investigation to continue or end. It starts and runs until it can determine there has been misdoings or not. But the question remains, how long to look for something if it isn't there?

I get the magnitude of this changes the parameters. If I were investigated from something, I'd be found guilty or not within a matter of months - easy peasy. But I'm not Trump who has been playing the games long enough to know how to hide my past extremely well (points to longer investigation needed). At the same time, we have supposedly some of the best investigators in the world, our own FBI (highly motivated, it may seem) lt find something (ANYTHING!) and there's been nada on Trump to this point. Call it 18 months...I dunno. What's reasonable? 2y? 4y? 20y? Lifetime? Beyond that? If we have a President who f'd up like is insinuated, no mountain of good things he achieves will make me say he stays a day longer in office. But I also can't see subjecting anyone, even the President, to an endless investigation if it can't find anything in a reasonable amount of time. It sets a precedent that neither side will drop - any future President will remain under investigation from the day they first consider running for office until their great-great-great grandchildren die. Hell, something could pop up later and they re-open the investigation, but at some point they have to say 'here is what we found' or 'we didn't find anything'.

 

[JGrimez]

Some people don't want to be honest. It's obvious this investigation began from nothing and found nothing, but Trump needs to be removed, so the investigation must continue indefinitely in the unlikely event that Trump eventually does something impeachment-worthy. Also it's to save face - Mueller ending the investigation means many vocal critics must eat crow. That would also finally legitimize Trump as president in the mainstream media.

 

[TheLoveBandit]

Nothing will legitimize Trump as President in MSM. Nothing.