The Mac vs. PC debate

[7zark7]

I must admit I don't know why anyone would buy an Xserve...

Unlimited client license. Extremely easy admin. Familiarity with OS.

 

[nowonmai]

However, no one buying a server is going to compare a tower to a 1U pizza box. Because they fit very different needs. There is a much higher price to pay to pack all that power into a tiny box.

True... for me, pizza box = firewall or proxy or some other such low storage device. It's not a server though. You're not going to get redundant PSUs into a 1U box and if high availability isn't guaranteed, all it is is a regular pc in a flat case.

 

[Helios.]

After losing the battle against spyware, viruses and other malicious software so rampant in the PC world for the last time, I have since gone MAC.
I don't plan to go back.

 

[Cyc]

^ Read atlas' post.

The "PC" (for lack of a better term) didn't lose the virus/spyware battle, the end user did.

For the record, I agree. I've never run an antivirus or anti-spyware tool in my life. I run a hardware firewall + common sense on a custom built computer.

Virus free since 1999.

 

[TheDEA.org]

Who wants to lug their too-cool-for-school Imac to the apple store in the mall to have some aloof "genius" tell you thats its going to cost you several hundreds of dollars to double your ram, clean your hard drive, or upgrade your OS.

Uh...what? First, upgrading the OS on a Mac only takes a couple mouse clicks (and entering your password.) New versions of the Mac OS also cost a lot less than a new fully equipped version of Windows. RAM is usually very easily accessible (press two spots on a typical Mac laptop's keyboard and it pops right out, exposing the RAM slots.) Hard drives are a bit more of a bitch to upgrade on iMacs, but nobody who calls themselves a computer hobbyist is going to need to take it in. But...that's not who buys these things. Hard-core computer people don't buy one-piece computers, regardless of the manufacturer. You hate the one-piece designs? Heck, I'm with you there; I've never bought one and I doubt I ever will. But for a lot of people they're exactly what they want/need.

The upgradeability of Macs varies quite a bit. The tower designs are quite upgradeable; they take the same RAM, same hard drives, same optical drives, same processors as a PC. The most serious difference is in video cards (generic PC video cards don't work in Macs; you need to get one with Mac-specific firmware.)


I've really got to laugh at the people pushing Linux at the general public. If it meets your needs, great, but the average person is too ignorant (and too uninterested) to manage such a user-unfriendly system. Heck, most can't manage Windows. Consider this recent exchange with a Mac user (who shall remain nameless):

Her: "Uh, I have a problem with my computer...."

Me: "OK, first open a window on your desktop...."

Her: "....what's a window?"

Now, she'd been using Macs for about seven years and computers for considerably longer, but had been unaware of even what a 'window' was. Mind you, she'd been perfectly productive and happy with the machine.

That's part of what's great about Macs: Virtually no learning overhead to be productive; the system doesn't get in your way. Intuitive. The computer as an appliance rather than a dark art that you must commit your life to mastering.

The other half of the coin is technological sophistication. The Mac OS comes with the Apache web server software and FTP, telnet, etc. software built right in. You can turn a Mac into a web server with two mouse clicks. You can telnet in to the command-line shell and check on processes, issue re-sets, shut down or re-boot the whole system. The UNIX-based Mac OS has both hard-core geek functionality AND a gorgeous user interface that an idiot (or anybody who thinks the computer should conform to their needs instead of vice-versa) can use.

 

[Pander Bear]

For the record, I agree. I've never run an antivirus or anti-spyware tool in my life. I run a hardware firewall + common sense on a custom built computer.

Virus free since 1999.

ditto. I scratch my head when people I think are otherwise competent complain about all the malware, viruses et cetera they get. I do all that gangsta stuff on the internet, and I just have a hardware firewall on my router. I download whatever from public torrent sites. I don't run an antivirus.

Haven't had a virus since windows 95. My problems have always stemmed from hardware failure.

 

[9mmCensor]

True... for me, pizza box = firewall or proxy or some other such low storage device. It's not a server though. You're not going to get redundant PSUs into a 1U box and if high availability isn't guaranteed, all it is is a regular pc in a flat case.

1Us do alot of hosting. Its compact and space economical computing for Data Centers. You can have decent servers in 1U, especially if you can have a cabinet full of them.

Whats great about Apples server lineup is pairing XServe with a RAID unit. It packs good power, with lots of cheap space. And it looks nice in a rack

For an office where you need one box for a multi purpose server thats gonna sit in a corner, a tower is great, but if you have a server room full of boxes, small form factor keeps things nice and compact and thus cheap.

 

[go-ee]

You guys who are talking about driver problems, crashes, spyware, and slow boot times. You're either not a "power user", in which case Mac is really a better choice for you, though linux is definitely not, or you're just rehashing the typical complaints about the OS.

Spyware, security problems (for the most part), crashes (for the most part), and slow boots are all problems that can usually be traced to how the user treats his machine. Hating microsoft for spyware is like hating your email provider for transmitting the message where you told someone your SSN and credit card number, or hating Honda because your engine locked up when you didn't change the oil.

I will always prefer the freedom to upgrade my OS and hardware at will with Windows (for the timebeing ) or linux. If, however, I was buying a laptop, I'd get a Powerbook. I look at laptops more like cell phones and handhelds than a desktop computer. I really do want things to "just work" on a laptop. I'm never going to swap out hardware, and the software I use is going to be pretty much static. Thats why I always preferred the Palm OS and the Blackberry OS to Windows CE/mobile.


Macs are great for when things just need to work (media centers, work stations, laptops (afaik)) but what good are they for a hobbyist? Who wants to lug their too-cool-for-school Imac to the apple store in the mall to have some aloof "genius" tell you thats its going to cost you several hundreds of dollars to double your ram, clean your hard drive, or upgrade your OS.

I run both on my computer. Mac OS boots up a good 15-20 seconds faster than windows. Shuts down faster as well. I don't even connect to the internet using windows and there is nothing installed other than genuine software. Yet I still get error messages, I still get programs not responding..I still have to use control alt delete when it jams up....Windows is just garbage. I don't understand how anyone can support it and say it's the users fault. Sure if you connect to the internet, download heaps of software off P2P, don't have firewall, etc you will have problems with your system. But besides all these, if you don't do anything you'll still have problems. Enough with the anti-mac propaganda. Every time I hear these oh windows is fine it's just the users fault I have flash backs from when Windows 98 plug and play feature was being demonstrated at a conference and the infamous blue screen of death popped up. If it crashed in the hands of microsoft's top dogs at a conference...over the years windows has just had soooo many bugs in it. It's unbelievable. If your a hobbyist and want to fuck around with your computer for eons, over clocking it, constantly upgrading components and you want a bang-for-buck system sure don't get a mac. Mac is definitely NOT aiming its products at you. I don't have time for the crap that comes associated with windows, maybe you guys do - if tinkering with computers is a hobby of yours..sure. I for one, don't value being frustrated as a hobby.

Furthermore, the argument that mac's are expensive is a load of crap..if you want a powerful computer get a mac pro. As I showed in my past posts..all other quad xeon desktop systems are a few grand more than macs...plus you don't get a nice OS. The challenge is still out there to show a desktop Quad xeon system cheaper than a mac system. If your into digital video editing, serious photography, scientific work, graphics design, etc and your serious about what you do and value things such as ease of use (where *nix systems fail), reliability, software support and power - I'd get a mac. Even if you don't like the OS, you can still run Windows (or linux) and have a far more powerful computer for the price.

Sorry atlas my post wasn't really aimed specifically at you but the mere majority of mac-haters in this thread. I acknowledge that hobbyists would prefer windows machines however, if you want a powerful desktop system and you don't like constantly fucking around - mac wins hands down. Even if your not a power user, and you want a reliable, friendly system where everything works - mac wins again.

The whole argument against macs seems to be..they use macs because they are n00bs and aren't smart enough to protect windows from errors. 8)

 

[psychetool]

Go-ee already laid down the framework for me. Macs are simply easy and fun to use. They cost about the same price, maybe a couple hundred more for a user expirience that I deem more then worthwhile. The amount of people I'v had to help with their PCs boggles my mind, from installing spyware protection, virus protection, reformatting HDs and upgrading their POS OS, then having to run all these virus programs continuously. No thank you. I'll stick with my 'overpriced crap' that virtually never freezes and is simple and fun to use even for complicated projects.

I'v known many people who are well schooled in using PCs and they still run into problems all the time, often times through no fault of their own. Listening to all the people around me who use PCs bitch and moan consistently about how they can't figure out X and Y and how they had to reformat because of spyware or because they downloaded a virus from Kazaa just boggles my mind - so yeah, i'll pass on that and stick to my overpriced trash.

I'm confident that I could be a PC 'poweruser' but it would just take a whole lot more time, and I don't have enough time as it is. I prefer keeping everything at my fingertips and not going through long complicated setups.

P.S. You are losing the high ground DD by resorting to talking down to people and flaming. Not cool.

 

[Finder]

Gotta love all the fanboys in this thread. Now go make my fucking double espresso.

 

[psychetool]

What attitude ? That we like the computers we buy and have stated our reasons as such ? I don't go around saying stuff like "Oh you idiot, buying PC, you're probably going to get crappy parts and in a few months you're probably just going to crash and lose all your valuable information anyways - sucker!" because ;

1) It's simply not true.
2) It's bullshit flaming.

Same thing with Finders 'fanboy' comment, just another attempt to put someone down for giving us their honest and open opinion that you don't happen to share. Wake up and realize that people use computers for different reasons, nobody is 'stupid' for choosing the option that best suits THEM and what they want to do. I don't blindly support Apple because they are my favorite company, if they do something wrong (like putting a SHITTY graphics card in my Mac Mini!) then i'll be more then willing to call them on it.

For instance you use Linux, good luck trying to get anyone who isn't already computer saavy or a very quick learner to pick up that one. "What, I can't play my games ? I can't use CS2 ? I can't run dreamweaver ? This sucks!" Of course it sucks to THEM, because it's not what they are looking for. You chose what best suits you, and your user experience. I'm not going to go off on you because you have to spend 10x time setting every little thing up and running through downloading all your drivers and whatnot that you can customize to your hearts content. Why ? Because I don't care. I'm not using your computer. If you want to do it, then more power to you. I hear that it IS more stable and customizable, and cheaper too.

What I don't need, and i'm guessing a lot of other people don't need either, is a bunch of flaming and bs 'fanboy' comments simply because of my CHOICE OF COMPUTER. As you said, both sides have advantages and disadvantages. Blindly attacking other people because they choose to put some functional options over the ones that you deem 'important' is counterproductive and downright disrespectful. I don't know about you, but most of the time I at least try to be civil on bluelight even with people who I might not happen to fancy.

I use Mac because it is what suits me. Period.

 

[Finder]

Whatever, dude. I've seen you spew countless amounts of ignorant drivel on Bluelight about why a Mac is soooooo much better than anything else. It's far too late to try and reach the high ground in this argument.

There are good things and bad about all three major platforms. There is no clear winner overall, only in certain areas and even that area is gray. This Mac vs. PC debate is so fucking stupid and worthless it boggles the mind.

 

[psychetool]

Hey, in my opinion it IS better then everything else and thats a perfectly valid one. It's not without it's drawbacks, but for me, and I think many other people as well it is the optimal choice. The difference is that I don't need to put down all the users of those systems simply because I don't share their choice of computer. I can offer what I like about mine, what I know to dislike about others - and you obviously can too - but I steer away from generalizing entire groups of PEOPLE simply because of the computer they use. Putting other people down and using phrases like 'Gotta love all the fanboys in this thread. Now go make my fucking double espresso.' is just you trying to pump yourself up on the internet and put other people down. Big man. Big man talking smack on the intra-net.

I also happen to think this is a very worthwhile discussion, not 'so fucking stupid'. I learned new things about both systems, and if I didn't know a lot about computers and was trying to judge which worked best for me I think this thread would be a great asset. If you think it's so fucking stupid, why not just go to another thread that you will enjoy participating in ?

 

[Pander Bear]

Once again, i don't know where all these error messages and reboot people are getting are coming from. I seed 50 torrents, edit video, play music, and so forth. I haven't rebooted in 2 weeks.

This argument is pretty absurd. German cars, american cars, japanese cars. They all go forwards and back these days, and they all drive on the same roads. They're nothing more than flavors at this point.

Apple users sacrifice price (and yes, you do. Don't cite a single price you were quoted on dell, look at the aggregate. Go price the parts, that show my computer got built). That extra money goes towards a computer that is designed to be idiot proof, and still robust enough to satisfy professionals.

Windows users enjoy a massive software library, and market forces acting on their hardware suppliers. They sacrifice stability because of the very very wide support.

Does anybody really want to argue like the people nobody talked to in high school about which corporate entity they most closely associate with?

 

[go-ee]

Go find all the prices for the individual components (including network card, keyboard, mouse, an OS and a good case) for the Mac Pros and see if it's cheaper. My guess is that if you happen to source all the parts (might take a while to source the xeons for a good price) you will save a few hundred dollars but a.) it won't be as professionally built or as neat b.) doesn't come with warranty c.) doesn't come pre-installed with an intuitive OS. Show me one prebuilt system that comes close to the specs of a Macpro and is cheaper? I've been saying this for several posts and none of you have. Apple will soon have the Xeon 5300 (Clowertown) chips..so the new Mac Pros will have 8 cores! I doubt I will see this in most windows computer...heck I haven't seen one quad xeon system in the flesh that isn't a server. So far, this argument has come down to a few moderators stereotypical views on mac users they have never met. Windows doesn't have problems? I think you guys must be a select few because I think the majority of people will testify to having a lot of problems. I run both and its disappointing to see that some of you are so stubborn in your views you have to resort to calls on intelligence due to a differing opinion. Like your choice of OS is a valid predictor of your intellectual capacity.8(

Go make you a coffee? Considering macs are apparently so expensive I'm more inclined to think you guys would be the ones making me the double espresso.

 

[TheDEA.org]

OS X got some shit down nice and solid, but i feel they over charge for it considering it's based on FREE software..

You, uh...really blew a lot of geek credibility there, DD. Do you really think OS X is just another distro of FreeBSD? They poured mountains of R&D into it, and it looks and feels like it.

Let me just say it: The quality of open-source software is usually piss-poor. Firefox is one of the few shining winners, and even it is relatively ugly and clunky compared to most of Apple's designs. OpenOffice? GIMP? Christ, I thought for a minute my computer had puked on the screen. Chimpanzees could probably do better design work than the open-source community.

Yes, yes, open-source will lead us all forward into a glorious future where mana rains from the heavens and farts smell like mint. I've heard it all before. But where's the goods? Where's a web layout program that's as useful as the bug-ridden bloatware of Dreamweaver? Where's any open-source program that can even lick the boots of Apple's iLife programs?

We pay good money for Apple and the like to write software for us because we're more interested in having a good user experience with no hassles than we are in making some grand ideological statement against capitalism.

and people that don't have the intelligence to run a windows box properly swear by it.. and their opinions mean dick to me.

So...who's smarter: The guy who buys a computer that does exactly what he wants, easily and reliably...or the guy who spends his time and sweat trying to get less well designed and less reliable products to work?

I've built PCs. I've untarred and MAKE'd enough software. I taught myself BASIC, then C, then HTML, just for kicks. I was hacking SMTP when the average person didn't even know what e-mail was. I've repaired circuit boards with nothing but a chef's knife and a soldering iron. I've hacked LEDs into mice. I've...well, done some things with computer I'm not going to admit to (nobody was ever harmed.) As noted previously, my last little adventure was getting the Mac OS to run on a generic PC. I LIKE doing stupid, pointless, inefficient, geeky things. But I don't pretend that my hacked-together solutions are better; they're just more gratifying at times to people of my particular pathology.

At the end of the day, I always put down the 'respectable' geek projects and came back to my humble little Mac, because it just did what I wanted. It just works. No hassles, no support nightmares, no debugging into the wee hours of the night. The computer as a useful tool rather than a test of manhood.

You like Linux? Great! But until the day comes when you can honestly look me in the eye and tell me that it works as effortlessly as a Mac, don't try to claim that it's a better solution, or that doing things the cheaper but harder way somehow makes you smarter than the people that just want to get the job done and move on with their lives.

 

[psychetool]

and as for "fanboys" it's called i've said good shit about windows, i have about macs, i've said bad things about linux.. i've never seen you say the same in regards to your preferences. that's what a "fanboy" is.

In this thread alone I have already conceded that the Mini has a poor graphics card and have said numerous times in other threads that PCs are far superior for gaming - so this doesn't hold water with me AT ALL. We may disagree that functionally Macs are better, but I do not deserve the 'fanboy' title because I do recognize that PCs are more affordable, have a wider selection of software, and are better for gaming. Hell, I'v even been considering buying a PC for games alone what with the prices lately. For what I do now (internet, webdesign, a little photoshop design, text editing, and media center) the Mac does everything I need and more. So of course I will stick to what is tried, true, easy and familiar.

P.S. I never claimed to be a 'gamer', I don't even play anything that isn't browser based as of now. And from my experience fixing/virus proofing a 'gamers' computer I find that you can't just generalize an entire group. Sure, they might like FPS games but that doesn't make them any more tech savvy then the next person. Plenty of 'jocks' and 'stoners' (I.E. not computer geeks, but definite gamers) I went to school with back in the day played Counterstrike and whatever else on expensive PC computers and that didn't stop them from bothering me about trying to help them if I was over there. Not to mention all the 'MY COMPUTER HAS POPUPS! ARGH!' complaints I have heard from all across the board from children all the way to adults.

 

[motiv311]

I am normally a PC user. Because I like to tinker around taking it apart .. etc.

but recently i have been playing music at the coffee shop with my guitar, singing, etc. I want to play electric music, or "mix" it - and be able to use a LAPTOP with special upgrades to output into the PA.

I've been very interested in the Macbook, because it has intel and can run windows.. But they are soo damn expensive and I plan on running windows anyway.... should I just go with a regular laptop (PC, IBM)?????

 

[Finder]

Why the hell would you buy a Macbook if you're only going to run windows?

 

[motiv311]

Well I want to run both OS's actually. maybe try and get aquainted with OSX.

why? does the macbook suck at running windows?