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The Mac vs. PC debate

It can be difficult to pin down why the Mac is a better experience. Yes, it's all about the interface and integration, but you can't just point to one key feature and say 'there, that's the reason to get a Mac'. It's hundreds of little touches that make it easier on the eyes and easier on the nerves. Compared to Windows, the Mac OS feels like a finely tailored suit, fitting in all the right places. (Which isn't to say it doesn't have bugs and some stupid design...just far far less of it than Windows does.)

It's not that Windows will kill your dog and give you cancer, but the difference in quality of user experience is so marked that I would never willingly give up my Mac for a PC. (Yes, PC means a computer running Windows. Literally the very first computer to be sold as a "PC" was an IBM model that ran off MS-DOS. A mac is a 'personal computer'. A linux box is a personal computer. A "PC" is a bit of branding that has always referred to Microsoft platforms.)

I haven't installed Windows on a Mac, but I did once get a hacked version of the Mac OS running on a home-built Pentium-D machine. :-)
 
Each to their own.

My mac serves me better than any computer I have ever owned. I don't really see why you quoted everything I said but ok. You say you could hunt around and build a computer for less. Show me a quad xeon system as well built as the current mac pros for less.

If you like tinkering around with computers sure. Build one yourself. Serve it to Apple for charging so much. For someone that just wants a powerful and professional computer that actually works..I'd buy a mac. Yes apple want you to get it serviced by apple technicians. Not a thing has gone wrong with my computer...at all. I could write novels on the problems I have had with my other computers running on windows. With mac you are getting a complete product. The cases may be bad for the imacs to play around with..but so what? Not really a valid point in the pc vs mac argument. More so, the cases for the mac pro's are really good. Not a single screw needed, quiet, plenty of space, easy to work with. Sure you can customize this with any pc. At the end of the day, if you don't have time to tinker or play around with computers and you have to get stuff done. You just want a product that works.

do you know WHY windows sucks? do you know why these things happen that annoy you so? i hear so many people complain about Windows, but very few have any idea what they're talking about. XP is a damn stable operating system. 2000 and 2003 are as well. The problem resides in the fact that the NTFS file system is horrible (much improved over fat32 no doubt, but still years behind ext2, ext3, the up coming ext4 and the Reiserfs, user's are given admin privileges upon default, and the entire existence of the registry. Other than those things (which cause a ton of problems).

I will say this as well.. in terms of window drawing and the speed in which apps load.. windows has linux and mac beat hands down as well. there's alot of advantages to windows systems. i have my complaints, i have my preferences.. but i just really tire of the ooh and ahh of the Mac crowd.
Click to expand...

Spyware. Countless security exploits. Slow boot up times. Programs will always jam up and require control alt delete. Install programs and it leaves shit everywhere all over your system. Even when I boot into windows now..I still get programs "not responding" and jamming the system up - and im on a quad xeon with 4 gig of ram..never happens in the mac os. I could go on for hours. I've owned countless computers and running windows has only left me with headaches.

They may be more money than if you build it yourself. It may simply be jazzed up free bsd, but hey I want a computer that works and is reliable. If I didn't like games I'd never use windows at all. Getting frustrated over simple things that I can do instantly without trouble on a mac is why I hate windows. Mac OS is far more refined, intuitive, user-friendly and reliable.

These arguments against Mac v.s Pc are always very circular and come down to the particular user's needs. Having experimented with all (and with windows for years) I am glad I use mac now. Much less headaches and it gives me more time to do what I actually need to do.

:)
 
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Which is better is irrelevant to a general sense, and can only be considered when looked at a case by case analysis.

It all comes down to, what is the computer going to be used for, and by who. Different users have different needs in a machine (stability, compatibility, computational/graphics power, mobility...) Each user needs to assess what they need and want, and what they can afford, and get the best solution for them.
 
As far as bootcamp and Windows, there's still a whole lot of yellow "?" and "!" in device manager (Windows side) - but hey, I've seen it work and it's pretty cool, despite the lack of full integration driver support.

I also agree with DD's point. I'm turned off by the fact that I can't easily upgrade, or modify a system that I bought. It's like putting DRM on hardware - and we all hate that, right? ;)
 
Could there be a case for N00bs using Macs instead of M$?

I dunno but it seems like every time someone who has XP or Windows in general
and has very little experience with Windows they seem to possess the natural ability to fuck Windows up. You know the types...toolbars and other weird dialer type stuff in IE. Weird installs/bad programs/malware that hog CPU time... i.e they keep saying: Why is my computer so slow?

I dunno there should be a general manual that comes with Windows called:
"Basic stuff you should know." Maybe Windows for Dummies is very good I don't know.

One quip I will say is that the modern world seems to revolve around Office.
Office sucks. Access sucks. Powerpoint sucks. Word sucks. Excel sucks. I got so much hate from teachers at college for using OpenOffice for general document
stuff that it got out of hand. If it wasn't a .doc file they would be like wtf is this?
They hated pdfs. All companies seem to run the same way...its all Office.

Macs on the other hand at least the Tiger OS seems pretty idiot proof. But Macs aren't the end all to PCs I've had problems with firmware updates, reading dvd problems (DVDs that won't read on my macbook will read on my HP DVD drive) and believe it or not burning an audio CD through iTunes isn't the most user friendly process (it could be easier). I don't even know how to burn a data disc on my macbook, no need, but there seems to be no great app
for burning stuff (I think theres an app in the utility folder). And X11 apps are sloooow.

Linux(whatever distro you like) is the way to go though.
 
Kyk said:
As far as bootcamp and Windows, there's still a whole lot of yellow "?" and "!" in device manager (Windows side) - but hey, I've seen it work and it's pretty cool, despite the lack of full integration driver support.

I also agree with DD's point. I'm turned off by the fact that I can't easily upgrade, or modify a system that I bought. It's like putting DRM on hardware - and we all hate that, right? ;)
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Bootcamp beta.

I used Linux for a year or so, but I have better things to do than compile programs and spend 3 weeks on why my DVD writer wont work.
 
Kyk said:
Is anyone else confused by this? Without trying to be intentionally thick, it's always been my understanding that a PC is a "personal computer" ... literally. So, unless someone copyrighted the acronym "PC" without telling me, doesn't Mac qualify as a PC?

Furthermore, when they're characterizing PC's, like they do in the commercials, they portray like viruses, and slow speeds... which can all be attributed to Windows.

The fact that most PC's run Windows doesn't make PC the culprit. PC's are capable of loading whatever OS you put on it. The fact that Mac's proprietary OS(X) has less users, and therefore, less people write viruses for it, is purely circumstantial. Even if it is more secure than Windows, we're talking an OS, and not the PC itself.

It seems to me, like Mac is intentionally confusing the issue, and exploiting, what they believe to be a common end-user misconception - which is PC = Windows.

It would sound ridiculous if Dell came out and said, "Don't buy a PC, buy a Dell!"

Mac is a logo. It's a design. It's a marketing campaign. It's a piece of software... But at the end of the day, it's still a PC.
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this is because mac markets their products to people who dont know the difference between a microprocessor and their own viscera
 
THE WOOD said:
this is because mac markets their products to people who dont know the difference between a microprocessor and their own viscera
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Thats not completely true. Apple markets to the pro sector alot, and well they know what they are getting and what is available.
 
DigitalDuality said:
vs.. i dunno, how about a fucking standard blade server..?

Processor: 1 or 2 AMD Dual Core Opteron
Power Supply: Dual Redundant 400W Power Supply
Hard Drives: SATA 300 Mbps 7200 RPM 16MB Buffer
Storage: Up to 1.2 TB Hot Swap
RAID: High Performance Hardware RAID
Memory: Up to 16 GB
Networking: 2x 10/100/1000 Mbps
On Board VGA: 8MB ATI RAGE XL
Front Panel: 1x USB 2.0 | Indicators: Power, HDD Activity, 2x LAN Activity
Rear Panel: 1x VGA, Serial Port, 2x USB 2.0, 2x RJ-45, 1x PS2
Warranty: 3 Year Overnight Parts Replacement Warranty and Standard Technical Support
$2,199.00
http://system76.com/index.php/cPath/43_67?osCsid=7dadf661d5339bc96c50c0ea0716d475
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The Mac has 2 Dual Core Processors, when you add a second processor and make them both 2.0Ghz (not the same but meh close enough) the price is about 2.8K.

Go price out a Dell Server that is the same as the Mac Box, see which is cheaper.
 
go-ee said:
The best things about macs are that you are buying a fully finished product. None of this half-arsed job microsoft does, where it's crashing..driver errors..spyware..FAROUT. Windows just gives me the shivers after being a mac user for a few months. I admit I was like many of you and thought they were overpriced..and for graphics designers trying to be hip and trendy. But oh how that has changed.

I must admit mac don't really accommodate to the middle-range users..they have the lower end.. imacs. Which personally I think are brilliant and well worth the money. Once again it is just the quality of the product and ease of use you are getting. It comes with a remote..so u can watch movies/photos/music/etc. They have huge screens - up to 24 inch. With the whole computer built in so it doesn't take up much space. However, once you get past the imacs you immediately move up to the mac pros which are considerably more expensive (and powerful!). There seems to be no sort of middle ground.

With all that said, windows is load of shit. It is unbelievable microsoft can sell a product that unreliable and with so many errors.

Use linux or mac.
Click to expand...


w0rd.
 
^
^
The Dell box by a long shot. I recently bought a Dell 2x Dual Core Xeon, ~140GB h/w, hotswappable SCSI Raid 5 (+ hotspare), redundant PSU, DAT drive, 2GB ECC, and it still only cost me about 3k.

Currently buying one of similar spec to the XServe and it's only about 1.6k.

And what's with the X1300 in the Apple XServe? I don't even have a monitor on my server.

The absolute only reason I would buy an XServe would be for the QTSS license. That said, I'd love a MBP cos I think they look sexy.
 
nowonmai said:
^
^
The Dell box by a long shot. I recently bought a Dell 2x Dual Core Xeon, ~140GB h/w, hotswappable SCSI Raid 5 (+ hotspare), redundant PSU, DAT drive, 2GB ECC, and it still only cost me about 3k.

Currently buying one of similar spec to the XServe and it's only about 1.6k.

And what's with the X1300 in the Apple XServe? I don't even have a monitor on my server.

The absolute only reason I would buy an XServe would be for the QTSS license. That said, I'd love a MBP cos I think they look sexy.
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1U server?
 
Digitalduality,

I don't know why you have this bias against mac users. Yes, everyone who chooses to use a mac knows nothing about computers because they prefer to pay more money for a quality product that works. Nice logic you have there. People who use windows and linux are just far more intelligent than mac users. Mac users are just idiots who don't know anything about computers. They are all the same and they all just piss money in the wind. Oh the fools that use macs!

Having said that, let's take a closer look at your comparison. Since you quoted the Mac Pro (I must admit I don't know why anyone would buy an Xserve...Mac OS is not ideal for a server environment) I am going to compare it to the computer you chose.

Apple Mac Pro
* Two 2.66GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon "Woodcrest" processors
* 1GB memory (667MHz DDR2 fully-buffered DIMM ECC)
* NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT graphics with 256MB memory
* 250GB Serial ATA 3Gb/s 7200-rpm hard drive1
* 16x double-layer SuperDrive

Ships: Within 24 hours

Free Shipping
Price: $2,499.00

and then the one you chose


Processor: 1 or 2 AMD Dual Core Opteron
Power Supply: Dual Redundant 400W Power Supply
Hard Drives: SATA 300 Mbps 7200 RPM 16MB Buffer
Storage: Up to 1.2 TB Hot Swap
RAID: High Performance Hardware RAID
Memory: Up to 16 GB
Networking: 2x 10/100/1000 Mbps
On Board VGA: 8MB ATI RAGE XL
Front Panel: 1x USB 2.0 | Indicators: Power, HDD Activity, 2x LAN Activity
Rear Panel: 1x VGA, Serial Port, 2x USB 2.0, 2x RJ-45, 1x PS2
Warranty: 3 Year Overnight Parts Replacement Warranty and Standard Technical Support
$2,199.00

Now lets upgrade it to the same specs as the mac pro (i.e. 2 processors, a 250gb harddrive, keyboard and mouse, etc)

Using TWO AMD Opteron (2.6ghz) chips which are said to be inferior to the mac pro's xeons (tomshardware), upgrading to a 250gb hard drive and adding a keyboard and mouse. The price jumps to...

Price: $4,003.00

But wait...therse more..

you only get an 8mb on-board graphics card compared to the Mac Pro's 256mb GeForce 7300 GT.

Then considering the nice case you get with the mac pro and the easy to use OS and your saying mac users are pissing money in the wind? Right...
 
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However, no one buying a server is going to compare a tower to a 1U pizza box. Because they fit very different needs. There is a much higher price to pay to pack all that power into a tiny box.
 
Okay here is direct comparison from the Australian Dell webpage and Australian Apple webpage (because I'm Australian).

Mac Pro

* Two 2.66GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon "Woodcrest" processors
* 1GB memory (667MHz DDR2 fully-buffered DIMM ECC)
* NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT graphics with 256MB memory
* 250GB Serial ATA 3Gb/s 7200-rpm hard drive1
* 16x double-layer SuperDrive

Estimated Ship: within 24 hours
Free Shipping
A$ 3,999.00

Dell System 490 customed to be the same specs as above (yes..i removed the monitor from the price..) Same cpu's, same harddrive, memory, everything the same as the mac.

The only difference is the Quadro FX 3450 graphics card in the dell...the price..*drum roll*

A$ 6,476.80

If we do this comparison with the 3 ghz Mac pro and the corresponding Dell 690 configuration (exactly the same specifications...try it yourself)

We get Apple system = A$ 5137.99
Dell system = A$ 7,935.40

Besides this huge price difference..the macs come pre-installed with a far nicer OS. If anyone can find a cheaper Quad Xeon woodcrest desktop system as professionally built as Apple..post it up.
 
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You guys who are talking about driver problems, crashes, spyware, and slow boot times. You're either not a "power user", in which case Mac is really a better choice for you, though linux is definitely not, or you're just rehashing the typical complaints about the OS.

Spyware, security problems (for the most part), crashes (for the most part), and slow boots are all problems that can usually be traced to how the user treats his machine. Hating microsoft for spyware is like hating your email provider for transmitting the message where you told someone your SSN and credit card number, or hating Honda because your engine locked up when you didn't change the oil.

I will always prefer the freedom to upgrade my OS and hardware at will with Windows (for the timebeing ;)) or linux. If, however, I was buying a laptop, I'd get a Powerbook. I look at laptops more like cell phones and handhelds than a desktop computer. I really do want things to "just work" on a laptop. I'm never going to swap out hardware, and the software I use is going to be pretty much static. Thats why I always preferred the Palm OS and the Blackberry OS to Windows CE/mobile.


Macs are great for when things just need to work (media centers, work stations, laptops (afaik)) but what good are they for a hobbyist? Who wants to lug their too-cool-for-school Imac to the apple store in the mall to have some aloof "genius" tell you thats its going to cost you several hundreds of dollars to double your ram, clean your hard drive, or upgrade your OS.
 
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