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The law of attraction and being positive....really?

That human understanding of these laws is not perfect does not detract from the fact that no matter if you believe in gravity or not, you will be empirically observed to fall to your messy death if you step out a window on a tower. You can wishfully think that you won't, but it will still happen.
Well, it's "very likely" that you will die -- of course. But who says that in 5 minutes there won't be a divine intervention in reality changing the laws of physics? Well, you probably think that's silly anyway, but the argument also works without reference to theological principles. Who says the "laws of physics" are fixed? Contemporary science is just the aftermath (pun intended) of Platonism where the nature of reality is assumed to be fixed (i.e. Being) rather than changing (i.e. Becoming). My point was that you impossibly can have "certain knowledge" because all scientific reasoning stems from deductive/inductive reasoning on an individual level (cf. Hume) and contingent/historical frameworks on a collective level (cf. Kuhn, Foucault,...). Of course, I know, scientists don't give a damn about this: "if it works, it works." That's ok for me, but I still find one must at least be humble enough to admit that you are not making universal truth-claims but are only explaining a very restricted region of phenomena with a certain contingent vocabulary.
 
That human understanding of these laws is not perfect does not detract from the fact that no matter if you believe in gravity or not, you will be empirically observed to fall to your messy death if you step out a window on a tower. You can wishfully think that you won't, but it will still happen.

As I mentioned in a previous thread, the more salient philosophical question is: If it were you, rangrz, that was doing the jumping, how could you possibly know this (i.e., that you were going to meet your doom)? If you are in fact uncertain re. your theoretical demise, what confidence interval are you willing to tolerate? Can you provide an easily comprehensible, non-technical, non-arbitrary reason why you prefer to accept that confidence interval over any other? If these questions sound like deliberate sophistry intended principally to confuse, well, that's because they kind of are. To the best of my knowledge, these unanswerable objections serve only to confound, hurling inquiring minds that don't know better into interminable Socratic quagmires from which it is impossible to emerge with sane, clearheaded answers. At the end of the day, whether you're brain will be irreparably damaged or not after jumping from a tall structure on an Earth-like planet is not a strictly philosophical issue. As always, I'll try to invoke Hume and remind everyone that all conclusions thereabout will be strictly inductive and therefore unsatisfying to the pathologically inquisitive. The trick here isn't to lean heavily upon language nor even rational thought. It's basically an empirical matter, the truth of which may, in principle, be elucidated by observation, not armchair debate and 'a priori' language games.
 
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It's basically an
empirical matter, the truth of which
may, in principle, be elucidated by
observation, not armchair debate and 'a
priori' language games

Which was in essence my point. The further point was that no matter what you say about it or believe or want the empirical reality of it will be the same, and thus refutes the law of attraction. Much as does the fact that although I want to have SL 65 AMG, the empirical fact of it is that no such car is in my parking spot. Seemingly refuting this idea again.
 
the empirical fact of it is that no such car is in my parking spot. Seemingly refuting this idea again.
Are you sure? Can you check again for me?

(but I shut up now, philosophy is a bitch)
 
Well, it's "very likely" that you will die -- of course. But who says that in 5 minutes there won't be a divine intervention in reality changing the laws of physics? Well, you probably think that's silly anyway, but the argument also works without reference to theological principles. Who says the "laws of physics" are fixed?

Well, that's the working hypothesis, and it's proven itself to be pretty handy up to and including this moment, during which I type at this terminal and witness the perfectly logical consequences of my keystokes manifest themselves on the screen according the precise, linear instructions of the CPU. It's not too difficult to see why people with extensive training in the physical sciences would prefer to lean on a rarefied cognitive tool that has been performing up to snuff for millennia over a convoluted linguistic conceit cooked up in an armchair.

Contemporary science is just the aftermath (pun intended) of Platonism where the nature of reality is assumed to be fixed (i.e. Being) rather than changing (i.e. Becoming). My point was that you impossibly can have "certain knowledge" because all scientific reasoning stems from deductive/inductive reasoning on an individual level (cf. Hume) and contingent/historical frameworks on a collective level (cf. Kuhn, Foucault,...).

I think you may be having some difficulty grasping the fact that rangrz is not a rationalist, even though you may be. He's an empiricist, and for this reason, he simply doesn't care to consult Plato or French academics every time he goes to evaluate the truth or falsity of a proposition, formal or not. That's not how he operates.

Of course, I know, scientists don't give a damn about this: "if it works, it works." That's ok for me, but I still find one must at least be humble enough to admit that you are not making universal truth-claims but are only explaining a very restricted region of phenomena with a certain contingent vocabulary.

What alternative 'vocabulary' would you suggest? Care to name which phenomena the scientific method does not adequately address, i.e., to what restrictions you're referring, precisely? At any rate, if I'm reading rangrz correctly, he is simply not as humble as you would like him to be. For my part, I'm not really clear on what your point is (exactly) re. science as such. I'll put it this way: When it comes to assessing so-called 'universal' or 'non-contingent' truth claims (whatever those are), if not the methods of logical empiricism and simple deductive reasoning, what methods would you prefer to use?
 
What alternative 'vocabulary' would you suggest? Care to name which phenomena the scientific method does not adequately address, i.e., to what restrictions you're referring, precisely?
(in a hurry now)
Well, Einsteins theory of relativity for example relies on Riemannian geometry, which is only a very recent "discovery" considering the long standing tradition of Euclid. Similarly, statistical mechanics incl. Brownian motions is also largely indebted to "recent" developments of probability in early 20th century, just as quantum mechanics relies on "recent" results of functional analysis and operator algebras. My point being, that Newton in his days described adequately a certain range of phenomena, however by only using a restricted subset of mathematical tools. Of course, this does not refute the fact that mathematics can reach its kingdom and provide physics all the tools it needs to describe reality. To me, it seems very unlikely this will happen. And if it does, one perhaps might pull off a Gödel-in-physics (even though I don't have the time to think about this properly).
 
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Are you sure? Can you check again for me?

(but I shut up now, philosophy is a bitch)

Yup, I just did, and no such car is empirically observed in my parking spot.

Why not? Well, admittedly,this not a question for the physical sciences. But an economists, sociologist or a psychologist may be able to provide some insight.

I think philosophy is definitely a useful discipline.But when discussing the objective reality of tangible things, which this "law of attraction seems to be addressing, that the appropriate empirical science is the most valid approach. If discussing jumping out a window or the nature of stars, consult a physicist. If discussing "visions" consult a physician and a psychologist. If discussing how generate electricity, or make your headphones sound better, seek out an engineer. Etc.
 
Yup, I just did, and no such car is empirically observed in my parking spot.

Why not? Well, admittedly,this not a question for the physical sciences. But an economists, sociologist or a psychologist may be able to provide some insight.
Well, I think we are going way off topic. Maybe a mod can separate out the discussion into another thread (not sure if that's possible).

Anyway, saying an economist, sociologist etc. does not solve the problem and is besides the point. I think we are talking on two different levels anyway. Read for example (Mutatis mutandis "jumping from a building will kill you")

http://www.philosophypages.com/hy/4t.htm#fact

(sections: Matters of Fact, Belief as a Habit, Necessary Connection)

to see where my problems are.
 
(in a hurry now)Well, Einsteins theory of relativity for example relies on Riemannian geometry, which is only a very recent "discovery" considering the long standing tradition of Euclid. Similarly, statistical mechanics incl. Brownian motions is also largely indebted to "recent" developments of probability in early 20th century, just as quantum mechanics relies on "recent" results of functional analysis and operator algebras. My point being, that Newton in his days described adequately a certain range of phenomena, however by only using a restricted subset of mathematical tools. Of course, this does not refute the fact that mathematics can reach its kingdom and provide physics all the tools it needs to describe reality. To me, it seems very unlikely this will happen. And if it does, one perhaps might pull off a Gödel-in-physics (even though I don't have the time to think about this properly).

I'm not sure that I comprehend the source of your doubt re. the eventual (approximate) completion of physics's grand endeavor. I'm not saying that you're necessarily wrong, but what makes you so confident that physicists 1000 or so years from now won't be plying their theories within the rough confines of a tentative unified field theory of everything?

Similarly, while mathematics proper may be something like a human invention, a la technology or literature, it's really nothing more than a group of highly imaginative formal extensions of pure logic and commonsensical human intuition regarding the nature of space, shape, measure, number, and so forth. In this sense, the superficial workings of math collectively comprise the one thing a human can ever claim to 'know' to a certainty, since almost all mathematical truth claims are ultimately tautological/deductive in nature. In keeping with its unique epistemological status, math also seems to enjoy a cozy relationship with the aesthetic (empirical) world in which we live - after all, we use math for just about everything, and why shouldn't we? It just works so damn well in so many instances. When one considers the science we call 'physics' as simply another branch of maths (indeed, one for which new kinds of math must often be developed) the issue becomes even more problematic for the epistemological relativist.

If you're saying that Newton didn't have access to the kinds of mental machinery to which Einstein was indebted for his theories, this would not, I'd argue, imply that Newton's world was literally constrained in comparison to Einstein's in any intuitively meaningful way. Newton just didn't (couldn't) fathom any more physics/maths than he did because he didn't have the proper tools for the task at hand. In other words, though it may sound good to proclaim that Riemannian geometry was just 'made up' by humans in the obvious sense, just how fictional Riemann's postulates really are is exceedingly tricky to specify. The way I see it, there's absolutely no good reason for me to believe that the intricate workings of the universe were significantly different in Newton's time than they are in ours simply because Newton experienced a (perfectly understandable) failure of imagination beyond his integral and multivariable calculi. Obversely, I would be just as skeptical if you told me that it was Newton's mind, and not the universe, that was somehow fundamentally different on an unfathomable level: From what little I know of the man, if you could magic yourself back to the 17th century with a mercury chelator and a ream of mathematical documents summarizing the developments of the past ~250 years, nothing short of an act of god would stop Newton from poring over the materiel, sharpening his quill, and setting to work. His 'vocabulary' (more appropriately, his semantics, I suppose?) was not the issue. It was just the symbolic syntax to which he had been exposed, which is really the stuff out of which math is (mostly) made.

In conclusion, there are at least two intuitive perspectives one can take regarding the relationship between deductive truth and physics/maths: Either you can say, without contradiction, that quantum mechanics (or at least the interactions that the mechanics describe) is really nothing new, in the sense that it's been around - almost literally - forever; or you could claim that it's just a twentieth century idea about the world in which it was originally thought up and experimentally honed. Both are correct in their own little self-contained way. Anyway, I could prattle on about this for hours; the philosophy of mathematics is a favorite subject of mine, because no matter which way one tries to slice it, math just has to be one way or the other, either a human invention, a useful fiction of sorts OR a kind of low-level programming language describing the undeniable, deductively certain architecture of reality - yet it's somehow both, and upon exhaustive study, so much more.
 
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Are you advocating ignoring reality if you don't like it?

So like, ignore a design flaw in a passenger jet and the crashes resulting from it and only focus on the fact that the jet gets people to their vacation spot.(When it doesn't crash and burn that is.)

No, I tend to ignore the issue of how closely people's viewpoints coincide with empirical reality, since trying to correct them is generally a waste of time, and a certain degree of variation is an acceptable (and inherent) part of being human. I was just trying to extract the actual psychological benefit from the story. The significance of myth and fictional narratives in personal development/identity is a major intellectual interest of mine.

If you want to decipher my thinking, consider that our default methods of interpreting the world are from a hard science perspective in your case, and a soft science one in mine. My limited post-secondary education was studying international affairs, and all that social science-y stuff has me think of the world as an incompresibly large set of data that only becomes useful when interpreted through the lens of specific theory (where validity is very much up for debate, and where seemingly contradictory viewpoints are not mutually exclusive).
 
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I've found that when I'm feeling good, things actually do seem to take a positive turn. The mind is more powerful than we think.
 
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