bit_pattern
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The ISIS Megathread
- Thread starter bit_pattern
- Start date
Bardeaux
Bluelight Crew
All one has to do is imagine their own country being under attack by a foreign power and the defensive frenzy that follows. On 9/11 people on the street in NYC were telling camera crews that we should turn the middle east to glass before the towers even fell. Toby Keith made millions just by providing the soundtrack to the revenge attacks. It's no different for Iraqis or Afghans or Yemenis or Palestinians. Continued military assault simply produces more resentment and resistance in the region.
No one wants to see an Assad or a Saddam remain in power ideally. Practically though, with border tensions with Iran, infighting occurring between different religious and political sects, the opportunity for a group like the IS to sweep the country.... things were much more stable with the unpopular dictator in power.
What 23
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Poll: 72% Believe U.S. Will Use American Combat Troops Against ISIS
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/is...e-u-s-will-use-american-combat-troops-n212791
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/is...e-u-s-will-use-american-combat-troops-n212791
socko
Bluelighter
I wonder how much of the talk about counter attacks after 9/11 was just people blowing off steam? Something horrible happened, and people became aware of how messed up the world is.
What23: Saddam was and ISIS, Assad, Al Qaeda, and Islamo-fascism are evil, but as we've seen, when Western governments interfere, it usually gets worse for everyone. The US military and the US government, for example, have proven themselves over and over to be incapable of fixing any mess overseas. The Middle East is less stable now. Not only that, but the cost of war has contributed to ruining the US economy. In several areas (real income, socio-economic inequity, workforce participation rate, condition of infrastructure, privacy) our quality of life has only gotten worse since 9/11.
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cashfl0w_d0nkey
Bluelight Crew
Lol... Looking back, the only reason I thought it was a mosque was because I thought I saw Arabic script in the window above the sign.
legalizeall
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Doesnt matter when the peaceful majority doesnt say anything and remains silent thru all this.
How, exactly do you expect - nay, demand - the "peaceful majority" of a huge religious group to break their silence?
If your understanding of the outside world is mediated solely by media - how can you be sure the people in question aren't struggling to find a voice in the public discourse of (whatever media you use to inform yourself of the world around you)?
I use the term "media" very loosely - be it social media, print media, major network corporate news, blogs or anything else (we are bombarded by information these days) - but what I mean is that you are condemning Muslims (I assume) for what....not criticising IS? (That is what you're saying?)
Fair play mate - you wouldn't really have to look too hard to find Muslims angered or scared for their lives due to IS.
Who do you think this radical fundamentalist faction of Islam has persecuted most of all?
I'm not sure what 'silence' you perceive from the Muslim community - if you are referring to your local community, on a broader world scale, or if you haven't really thought about it too much - but what good is anybody acting to "say anything" (whatever you mean by that?) going to improve the terrible situation in Syria and Iraq?
Don't let the media feed you hate. I mean, do as you please - but you don't need to share it.
There's enough in the world as there is without manufactured mass media anger.
The Muslim community are having enough of a hard time in the west at the moment - and IS are so Internet savvy as to issue death threats to Muslim people who are vocal in opposing them.
This point alone should demonstrate how silly this "why don't they say something? It's just not good enough" sentiment is.
If it isn't clear enough, these people do not fuck around. Would you go and talk to the TV News (or whatever?) because you had a personal beef with this brand of Islamism (not just ideological - like they actually had some real world connection to you)? A person would be wise to avoid picking fights with such zealots.
But hey - as the article i link to above demonstrates, these islamic critics of Is do exist; Muslims have been speaking out against the IS/ISIL/etc.
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bit_pattern
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I've said it before and i'll say it again - just because the media you consume doesn't report on what the Muslim community are saying or thinking does not mean it isnt happening. Why don't you demand answers from your media for not reporting on anything but the hysteria?
Bardeaux
Bluelight Crew
You're kidding, right?
The only people (including within the muslim community) who aren't voicing opposition to this kind of extremism are the extremists themselves. The Peshmerga doesn't ring a bell? The FSA who are fighting the IS as well as the Assad regime? The Organization for Islamic Cooperation which represents 1.4 billion muslims across 57 countries had this to say:
nuttynutskin
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@ Legalizeall... You seem to be one of the more intelligent posters in this section but I have to disagree also. I've heard in the news plenty of times someone who's important in the Islamic world come out and condemn terrorist action. It still wouldn't hurt if more did speak out tho, so your point isn't without merit. I think the majority of practicing Muslims just want to keep to themselves honestly, and I think that can be kind of a good thing and a bad thing.
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bit_pattern
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APPEAL TO FLATTERY
(also known as: apple polishing, wheel greasing, brown nosing, appeal to pride / argumentum ad superbiam, appeal to snobbery [form of], appeal to vanity, proof surrogate [form of])
Description: When an attempt is made to win support for an argument, not by the strength of the argument, but by using flattery on those whom you want to accept your argument. This fallacy is often the cause of people getting tricked into doing something they don’t really want to do.
Logical Form:
X is true.
(flattery goes here)
Therefore, X is true.
Lets understand something.
Firstly, that this or that Islamic organisation has stood up and opposed ISIS means nothing, the peaceful majority are irrelevant.
The truth is that whilst a majority of Muslims may oppose ISIS, a great many of this number would in some way sympathise with the cause of establishing an Islamic caliphate.
In the Koran it is stated that peace will be achieved by the rule of God extending over the world. It is the peace of a single ideology and a single regime, the peace of an empire united around one God and one faith. That global peace has not arisen yet, because the world is still divided into two realms: dar al-Islam, where people live in submission to God, and dar al-Harb, the abode of war, where non-Muslims do not yet submit to the beneficent reign of Allah. Once Islam triumphs over the whole world, humanity will have global peace.
Islam’s scriptures not only allow for, but in some places encourage, the use of force. The so-called sword verses of the Koran http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sword_Verse in particular encourage believers to fight to defend the faith and the faithful community, and subdue enemies of the faith. Muslim scholars have long disputed the interpretation and application of these verses. At one extreme are those who preach them as the chief duty of Muslims who feel embattled or aggressive. At the other are liberal Muslims who doubt their authenticity, particularly in the face of many other verses in the Koran that advocate peace. But every educated Muslim knows that the sword verses are there.
The general expectation of Islam since Muhammad’s day is that the reign of God (which is to say, the reign of Islamic regimes) would extend steadily over the whole earth. And that extension, again since Muhammad’s day, was achieved sometimes by diplomacy and persuasion, yes, but also sometimes through military action. One cannot understand Islamic history without acknowledging the frequent resort to armed force in extending the “house of Islam”.
So what does it matter if the majority of muslims oppose ISIS? At the heart of their belief system is the justification for everything we are seeing in Syria and Iraq.
Firstly, that this or that Islamic organisation has stood up and opposed ISIS means nothing, the peaceful majority are irrelevant.
The truth is that whilst a majority of Muslims may oppose ISIS, a great many of this number would in some way sympathise with the cause of establishing an Islamic caliphate.
In the Koran it is stated that peace will be achieved by the rule of God extending over the world. It is the peace of a single ideology and a single regime, the peace of an empire united around one God and one faith. That global peace has not arisen yet, because the world is still divided into two realms: dar al-Islam, where people live in submission to God, and dar al-Harb, the abode of war, where non-Muslims do not yet submit to the beneficent reign of Allah. Once Islam triumphs over the whole world, humanity will have global peace.
Islam’s scriptures not only allow for, but in some places encourage, the use of force. The so-called sword verses of the Koran http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sword_Verse in particular encourage believers to fight to defend the faith and the faithful community, and subdue enemies of the faith. Muslim scholars have long disputed the interpretation and application of these verses. At one extreme are those who preach them as the chief duty of Muslims who feel embattled or aggressive. At the other are liberal Muslims who doubt their authenticity, particularly in the face of many other verses in the Koran that advocate peace. But every educated Muslim knows that the sword verses are there.
The general expectation of Islam since Muhammad’s day is that the reign of God (which is to say, the reign of Islamic regimes) would extend steadily over the whole earth. And that extension, again since Muhammad’s day, was achieved sometimes by diplomacy and persuasion, yes, but also sometimes through military action. One cannot understand Islamic history without acknowledging the frequent resort to armed force in extending the “house of Islam”.
So what does it matter if the majority of muslims oppose ISIS? At the heart of their belief system is the justification for everything we are seeing in Syria and Iraq.
Bardeaux
Bluelight Crew
Says you.
This may or may not be true, but do you honestly believe this "peaceful majority" wishes an Islamic state to be established under the methodology and ideology used by ISIS? With so many "irrelevant" Muslims voicing opposition to the group, we can garner an educated guess that no, they wouldn't.
It matters a great deal, legitimacy means everything. If ISIS is facing not only opposing rhetoric from the majority of the Muslim community around the world, but military opposition as well, how can the organization possibly continue to grow and flourish as a legitimate caliphate? It can't. It is surrounded by billions of enemies, entire Islamic armies ready to crush them. If they can't win the hearts and minds of Muslims around the region (let alone around the world), they are a stillborn movement burning itself out.
legalizeall
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You have a point and I really shouldnt say that just because I hate it when people make sweeping statements about shit. It is a big generalization for me to say that but personally I just havent seen anyone be open about saying this is not what we muslims believe in or condone. Im sure they are out there and it might be a case of the media just not showing it too.
@bit pattern. I expected more then just a link like that. You can do better then that.
@middleway. I dont see how any of that would be relevant. I dont know that person, never met them, and vice versa so what would be their motivation for what your saying. I know it might be a odd thing to see people not personally ripping into each others character in here though.
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legalizeall
Bluelighter
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Everyone here that commented on my post got me. Your right and I was wrong to say that. Its true that just because i don't see it doesn't mean it isn't happening. In my defense i do look at many different sources for my news, i don't have just one, but that was ignorant on my part. I like to think I can be a person who can admit when they're in the wrong and I was with that post. It happens and I'm certainly not perfect.
Bardeaux
Bluelight Crew
^Was in the process of putting this post together before I read that. Maybe this will serve as further reading material at least
research is a virtue ;P
See: post #309.
Aside from that, Iraqi Sunni clerics are calling for war on ISIS, the American MPAC has vocally condemned the group, 5k Norwegian Muslims rallied against ISIS, 100 UK imams of both sunni and shiite faiths released a statement condemning extremism, the Islamic Society of of North America has done the same. As well as the Council on American-Islamic Relations, the World Islamic Congress, the founder of Muslims Against Terrorism even went on a hunger strike in protest.
It's all out there, but as you said, it's not going to be on the evening news.
research is a virtue ;P
See: post #309.
Aside from that, Iraqi Sunni clerics are calling for war on ISIS, the American MPAC has vocally condemned the group, 5k Norwegian Muslims rallied against ISIS, 100 UK imams of both sunni and shiite faiths released a statement condemning extremism, the Islamic Society of of North America has done the same. As well as the Council on American-Islamic Relations, the World Islamic Congress, the founder of Muslims Against Terrorism even went on a hunger strike in protest.
It's all out there, but as you said, it's not going to be on the evening news.
Thats the kind of mature and reasonable attitude that gets you nowhere on this forum.
Any concession is simply exposing a flank to be attacked by the BL radical leftists.
^ if it is so bad, why not lead by example?
Bitching about how people conduct debate on here doesn't lift the standard of discussion at all.
And nobody is gloating or laying into the guy - by implying that the "radical leftists" would (or will) do so is being somewhat disingenuous, don't you think?
I mean; if you want I talk about mature and responsible attitudes - it's one thing to talk about it, but demonstrating it is something else all together - is it not?
I agree that it is refreshing to see someone concede a point that was picked apart by several people - but praising this concession with a back-handed criticism of the forum seems a bit contradictory.
Bitching about how people conduct debate on here doesn't lift the standard of discussion at all.
And nobody is gloating or laying into the guy - by implying that the "radical leftists" would (or will) do so is being somewhat disingenuous, don't you think?
I mean; if you want I talk about mature and responsible attitudes - it's one thing to talk about it, but demonstrating it is something else all together - is it not?
I agree that it is refreshing to see someone concede a point that was picked apart by several people - but praising this concession with a back-handed criticism of the forum seems a bit contradictory.
Well the post is not that old yet and the resident troll for the left (bitpattern) is tragically indisposed at the moment so that could have something to do with the lack of capitalising on his candour.
As for my post ...well yes I am being contradictory but more to the point I'm being sarcastic and ironic. Judge that as you will.
I personally would love to really discuss these issues in an honest and no bullshit way and see what kind of common ground or objective truth could be found.