-The- Heroin & Opioid Mega Discussion Thread (Volumes 1+2 Merged)

[Coolio]

I can't stand being awake right now. I have to wait like 36 hours til I can hit the oxymorphone and hydromorphone.

 

[motherofearth]

34 days off heroin. The dreams and cravings are still there, but I'm more resilient than I thought. I've not had any close calls (ie running into an old dealer/fellow user, or getting offered drugs), but this mainly has to do with cautious planning. Some things you just can't avoid, but I'm not gonna wait for challenging texts, or walk into old haunts.

Mainly, I just finished this story, and I thought the quote had some relevance for this thread, albeit grim:

it had caressed him, and - lo! he had withered; it had taken him, loved him, embraced him, got into his veins, consumed his flesh and sealed his soul to its own by the inconceivable ceremonies of some devilish initiation.
-Joseph Conrad; Heart of Darkness

 

[tripnotyzm]

Good on you moe, keep striving dude

 

[RedLeader]

Wow, MOE! Time really does go by fast (at least for me, probably not so much for you). Do you feel better physically? Better sleeping, better eating and whatnot? You've really come a long way it seems. Glad to see you doing better, my friend.

I'm about the same length into my current clean streak.

 

[motherofearth]

Thanks for the support fellahs!

To provide a blanket answer: I'm feeling so much better not slicing from euphoric to abysmal. Sleep, exercise, meditation, and socialization are all in check. I just need to get better eating going and I'll be.... balanced. A scary and alien thought. Also, I've come to find when I'm not retarding my personality with drugs I run a little hyperactive

Glad to hear you are back on Red. Those planned relapses and last dances bother you, I can tell.

 

[RedLeader]

I was talking this over with some people today, and we unanimously agreed that this whole thing is orders of magnitude harder if you don't subscribe to the disease model, or at least the whole "born this way" understanding. I'm not going to go into my beliefs on the subject here, but I've never been convinced of the disease model in any of its forms. The first time was a choice, the addiction was a choice and the relapses were choices, at least that's how I see it, and because of that I don't have a scapegoat for my behaviours.

I have been listening to a lot of stuff about universal consciousness in my attempt to find some type of "spiritual" component to appreciate, if the Judaic-Christian one isn't going to work for me. This all has been very interesting, if not helpful, but at the same time is really making me want to seek out mushrooms and/or DMT again. BL's probably the only place that I can tell this to people and not be met with a panicked "you're in denial of the fact that a drug is a drug is a drug" response. I also find some morose humour in how I'll ramble off all of this stuff I've learned from the serious-driven psychedelic community and people in recovery circles will eat it up, but have no clue that it's all in fact inspired by drugs. Then again, if I define this as my spirituality, then I guess it is what it is.

 

[villian]

You don't have to buy into the disease model to believe that frequent drug use causes changes in the users brain that makes them more likely to turn to drugs in the future. In the end it does all boil down to free will, but I think it does help to acknowledge that an ex-addict is more likely to use drugs in the future and to plan for that contingency.

Psychedelics (DMT and ayahuasca in particular) have made an extremely positive change in my life. I am well aware of the recovery people who preach that all drugs are bad and you need to live a life of sobriety, but in my opinion they are completely ignorant of the positive effects these medicines have had in many peoples lives. Have you ever experienced "cosmic consciousness"? It really is a life changing experience but unfortunately it is not something you can predictably initiate. In my experience DMT or ayahuasca (and to a lesser extent mushrooms) are the most likely ways to take you there but you may have to work with them a bit. I also recommend starting a meditation regimen if you have the time; it is much more than some new age past time and their are dozens of studies in the literature documenting its various benefits. When you are able to reliably quiet your mind I think it is easier to recognize consciousness for what it is. A combination of meditation and tryptamines is a strong ally.

Best of luck on your journey and I hope you find what you are looking for.

 

[motherofearth]

You don't have to buy into the disease model to believe that frequent drug use causes changes in the users brain that makes them more likely to turn to drugs in the future. In the end it does all boil down to free will, but I think it does help to acknowledge that an ex-addict is more likely to use drugs in the future and to plan for that contingency.

I agree. There are neurochemical changes, particularly w/ opiates, which are stacked against you and beyond your control (for a time) which can easily enough be considered internal disease mechanisms. Is it a matter of ethical obviation of responsibility you reject in the model, or is it just outright improbable? I personally don't refer to my addiction as a disease, but I know whether I feel good or bad my receptors are enlarged and craving drugs (for a time).
I've been studying "the recovery community" from an immersed point, so I find your point interesting about the absolutism for drug use. As now, I see paradoxes, or I may be led to say facades, as the programs present a liberal, free-thinking, and malleable front, yet the most essential tenets (deemphasis of inner strength) and representatives are rigid, closed, and conservative. I understand these self-help programs need maintain consistency, but my problem is I've basically been told to submit wholly to a doctrine or I'm fucked.

 

[maggie_mayhem]

Heroin is pretty fucked.

I was hooked nearly every day for half a year when I first started in Aug 06. After an arrest & rehab visit, I still used, only less frequently (or just enough to not get physically hooked like crazy). I quit Oct 09 cuz I went to jail for 5 months then subsequently got pregnant when I got out..lol.

Didn't use for 2 years, then in Nov 11, I found a connect again. Used until March 12, when I think all my newfound connects got busted or something, cuz I never heard from them since...lol. I COULD just go to a "spot" where they're working, but without a car it's too risky being arrested for sticking out like a sore thumb.

That & I'm a mom.... (scary), so being in jail isn't the greatest plan.

 

[podsnomo]

Heroin is pretty fucked.

I was hooked nearly every day for half a year when I first started in Aug 06. After an arrest & rehab visit, I still used, only less frequently (or just enough to not get physically hooked like crazy). I quit Oct 09 cuz I went to jail for 5 months then subsequently got pregnant when I got out..lol.

Didn't use for 2 years, then in Nov 11, I found a connect again. Used until March 12, when I think all my newfound connects got busted or something, cuz I never heard from them since...lol. I COULD just go to a "spot" where they're working, but without a car it's too risky being arrested for sticking out like a sore thumb.

That & I'm a mom.... (scary), so being in jail isn't the greatest plan.

Yeah, stay away. If you want a safer buzz, go for kratom. Legal, safe, decent buzz.... But you can get hooked on it too. If you're gonna get hooked on something, better kratom than H.

 

[motherofearth]

Yeah, stay away. If you want a safer buzz, go for kratom. Legal, safe, decent buzz.... But you can get hooked on it too. If you're gonna get hooked on something, better kratom than H.

I've never tried it, but would kratom affect (euphoria/buzz) someone w/ heroin tolerance or a past habit? I know whenever I'd try to go back to morphine I'd say fuck it within an hour and a half and go get dope. And with that, I wouldn't be happy unless I mainlined, as opposed to smoking/snorting/plugging it. For me, there was no returning from graduating w/ drugs and ROA's.

 

[podsnomo]

I've never tried it, but would kratom affect (euphoria/buzz) someone w/ heroin tolerance or a past habit? I know whenever I'd try to go back to morphine I'd say fuck it within an hour and a half and go get dope. And with that, I wouldn't be happy unless I mainlined, as opposed to smoking/snorting/plugging it. For me, there was no returning from graduating w/ drugs and ROA's.

Sorry, but that's where my knowledge ends. I would imagine if you were clean for a good long while, kratom would give you a buzz. You might build a tolerance faster, and/or you might find that it doesn't quite satisfy and give you the craves for more H. For me, it's much better than poppy pods as a habit, and it keeps me doing OK.

 

[Serotonin101]

July 5th marks my 6 months clean from drugs. No more heroin, hydromorphone, meth, crack, any of that. I'm on drug court now but it just helps me stay clean. If this junkie can get and stay clean, anyone who WANTS TO QUIT can. It's a beautiful world out there, and yes the use of psychedelics in my past helped me grasp a Higher Power for the 12 step programs.

 

[motherofearth]

Good for you Serotonin. It sounds like you're right to say drug court is help, but it seems like you have other things keeping you clean. Congrats, can't wait to get there myself!

 

[RedLeader]

Psychedelics (DMT and ayahuasca in particular) have made an extremely positive change in my life. I am well aware of the recovery people who preach that all drugs are bad and you need to live a life of sobriety, but in my opinion they are completely ignorant of the positive effects these medicines have had in many peoples lives. Have you ever experienced "cosmic consciousness"? It really is a life changing experience but unfortunately it is not something you can predictably initiate. In my experience DMT or ayahuasca (and to a lesser extent mushrooms) are the most likely ways to take you there but you may have to work with them a bit. I also recommend starting a meditation regimen if you have the time; it is much more than some new age past time and their are dozens of studies in the literature documenting its various benefits. When you are able to reliably quiet your mind I think it is easier to recognize consciousness for what it is. A combination of meditation and tryptamines is a strong ally.

villian, I really like the things that you say. I have more and more respect for you as I continue to read your posts.

I don't even really think of DMT or psilocybin (I'm grouping these together, given that the latter is somewhat structurally related to the former) as drugs. They're more like portals to something much, much bigger than us or this planet. I don't want to be all conspiracy-rich, but there's definitely something going on with these substances. I've felt it to a lesser degree, but I've read the work of a lot of people, people I respect very much, who have had their lives totally restarted after ++++ experiences. What I've experienced (I would say that I've been to ++/+++) was the most beautiful thing I've ever known, and I do crave to go deeper. Sometimes I wish that the "a drug is a drug is a drug" crowd could have a strong psychedelic experience just to tune them in to the fact that this is much, much bigger than can be understood by the outside observer. I honestly feel bad for them because unlike the hard drugs that destroy our lives, those people were cut off before they ever got to experience this beauty.

I know that this the path to spirituality for me. Even when I listen to lectures on these topics, I feel happier, more gentle and like a person with better intentions. Circumstances in my life are preventing me from really digging any deeper into this just yet, but I'm fine with waiting. This isn't like waiting for the dopeman to pick up his phone. This is waiting for something to find you.

And man, if you have any good suggestions for books, lectures, etc., send me a PM. I would love to get more into this stuff.

Is it a matter of ethical obviation of responsibility you reject in the model, or is it just outright improbable? I personally don't refer to my addiction as a disease, but I know whether I feel good or bad my receptors are enlarged and craving drugs (for a time).

It's a disease inasmuch as scratching yourself when you're covered in poison ivy is a disease. You cover a person in point ivy, that person's going to want to scratch. You feed any person off of the street heroin, alcohol or another hard drug for a long enough time and that person's going to really, really want more. These people saying "I would understand what I was doing to myself and just stop" have never felt how awful heroin withdrawal is when you have a significant habit. But is that "need" to keep going a symptom of something that certain people are born with and others not? No, it's just a basic human desire to avoid pain. You get a rash and you scratch to avoid pain. You catch a cold and you cough to avoid pain. You go into heroin WD and you crave heroin to avoid pain. Diseases? More like conditions placed on a life through exposure to bad things.

You have to take a step back, I suppose, and ask why certain people can use recreationally, or not want to use at all, and why others cannot. I think it can be completely explained by an appeal to a basket of depression, anxiety, ocd and other psychological conditions that make people uncomfortable enough in their natural states to feel a basic need to want to avoid that pain. Some people overeat, others harm their bodies, some get violent. We use drugs. But in a world without drugs, people would still do these other things to try and run from their demons. In a world where chocolate is illegal, people would lie, steal and cheat in order to get it.

Are depression, anxiety, ocd, etc. "diseases"? I would call them "neurological conditions," and I don't see it necessary to try and infer a "disease" out of some amalgamation of these conditions. I think people appeal to the disease model to have a scapegoat for their bad choices because they don't feel comfortable trying to understand it in "pain vs pleasure terms," applied to the basket of neurological conditions. Is it harmless enough? Sure, at the end of the day, if it brings people closure, then I'm all for it. I just don't want to be shunned out of any AA meeting, or told that I need to go back to Step 1, if I choose to not believe that I have the "disease of addiction."

I'm on drug court now but it just helps me stay clean. If this junkie can get and stay clean, anyone who WANTS TO QUIT can. It's a beautiful world out there, and yes the use of psychedelics in my past helped me grasp a Higher Power for the 12 step programs.

I'm just curious, but do you feel thankful that the system gave you a "chance" with the drug court? I mean at the end of the day it did get you clean, but so would 6 months in jail. So do you really feel thankful to be in the drug court and to be jumping through its hoops? Do you sort-of see what I'm getting at? Both jail and drug court will get you clean, but do you think that the drug court goes that much above and beyond this? I know that they vary from state-to-state, some better than others. I've always kind of understood them as a way to make extra money off of the suburban white kids, wearing a mask of "we're treating this like a mental health problem" to answer "why do you treat addiction as a criminal matter?" I mean don't get me wrong, anything's better than jail. I guess I just don't like how they try and make it out to be something other than what it's actual purpose is...

 

[motherofearth]

I think we're on relatively the same page when it comes to the disease model. Yet, again, I can still see how it can be argued that disease-like symptoms result from habitual use, whether anxiety/depression inculcated the use or no. For instance, people contract diseases through many mediums other than genetics, yet we don't question the legitimacy of the ills born of radiation poisoning, cigarette smoking, and/or blood born viruses. If you throw away all the AA banter and scapegoating, there are undeniable changes in the brain chemistry. I suppose it's a matter of qualification and where you draw the line on what's a condition: at skin rash or neuro-chemical imbalance/deviation. Given this, I can't bear to call my addiction a disease within the confines of an AA/NA program because, as you said, it is an oversimplified (lazy) way of evaluating addiction in their context. But there are circumstances where I'd more readily identify it as such.

Have you ever read Discipline and Punish by Michel Foucault? It deconstructs the modern/progressive penal systems in a way I think you'd enjoy.

 

[Serotonin101]

Drug court is alright in that they put me in long term outpatient treatment for about $20 a month (yes $20, not $200). These sessions give me greater insight on the disease (i follow the disease concept) of addiction. I was 3 months clean before getting in drug court. I have motovation issues and the court forces me to stay active in recovery here in st louis city.

As for books, check out "DMT: The Spirit Molecule" by Dr. Rick Straussman. Incredible read.

-edit- also for drug court i would face 5-7 years in prison for my alleged crime, while st louis drug court can be completed in 11 months including dismissal of charges upon completion. So i chose 11 months instead of 2.5 years then parole out.

 

[podsnomo]

I too follow the disease model. Whether inherited, brought on by use, or more likely a combo of the two, I have the allergy. So, when I use, anything, but especially alcohol, my reaction is like an allergic one, except instead of itching literally, I figuratively itch and crave more and more and more and more. I'm pickled, and I'll never be a cucumber again. I just want to get totally clean.

From the mess I was in with alcohol, poppy pods, and benzos, I'm down to just kratom and a therapeutic (NOT recreational) dose of klonopin. I'm getting there. Slowly.

pnm

 

[VanWeyden]

So I fucked up again yesterday, big time. I am sick atm, and after my roomie left for work, I sneaked into her room and searched her medicine cabinet. I knew there had to be some opiates as she told me that she needed them when she had an herniated disk and had a few left somewhere. So I found a blister of OC20s, took two of them and despite being high I was totally scared she would find out when she came home. She didn't, instead I told her and my gf I was sick and they cared for me so much, made me tea, soup and stuff and I feel like a total asshole right now.
The biggest problem is not even that I used again, the biggest problem is that I lied to and stole from the people I love the most. I don't want to keep this a secret because I know how separating those dirty little secrets can be, and I start hating myself for that. I though I had left that guilt trip behind, but obviously I didn't

 

[motherofearth]

Hey Van, all I can say to that is don't let the guilt/shame corrode your resolve. I remember something herbavore put down on another thread the other day outlining the difference between guilt/shame and remorse which made a lot of sense. What I took from it: we need to evaluate our decisions and ponder and identify the psychology behind them, but rather than allow those breaches of ethics to become us, they should serve as tools to teach us. At the same time, as addicts we've spent copious amounts of time learning behaviors unethical; it is only natural the accompanying urges will carry us away from time to time. You're only human. It's most important to remember the adverse effects of these choices on yourself and others the next time you are tempted. I hope that made a modicum of sense. Moreover, I hope you find reconciliation.

I decided I would return to this thread as it is where I began chronicling my addiction(s) and all its associated misdeeds. Between five and six weeks ago I relapsed on heroin after over 100 days off. I came back to dope via a continual relapse on morphine. One day morphine was unavailable and I got greedy. Of course after using IV heroin again my tolerance skyrocketed and I reconciled chipping again. Now I am beginning to exhibit symptoms of withdrawal when I stop, yet I don't know how severe b/c I've not abstained for more than a day over the last week and a half.

I've rekindled old drug relationships, and I've started new ones. I got involved w/ a girl from my inpatient program (where I was considered something of an anchor for my peers) and introduced her to the life. She was an oxy addict prior to that, and she is emotionally unstable and very immature. I try to not feel responsible for the decisions of others, but I can't help but feel some ownership for the recent downward trend in her life. And of course, now I am trying to keep sober so I want nothing to do w/ her since we tend to use together. She is staying clean herself now, but I know it is dangerous for me to be around her - plus when I'm not on drugs she really annoys me. I think on some level I must have been using her for the drug company and sex. She is a raver/party girl, and, I hate to say it, but quite dim. She is really into me for whatever reason and keeps bothering me to hang out w/ her, or at least go to meetings. I'm trying to be nice and give her hints, and honestly I don't think it is good for me to be around people with whom I've used this early in my recovery, but really, I may just need to tell her she is not my sort of person.

Anyway, I know that is all a little off topic, but I've fucked up my recovery community some here. I am embarrassed b/c she told a mutual friend w/ loose lips and now all my sober friends know we were involved. I need to refer to the beginning of this post b/c I am really ashamed of myself over this. Ew ugh.

/end rant.