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The gun thread, reloaded.

This might just be my naivety, but it seems like the US military could handle a Canadian or Mexican invasion without a militarized American populace.

Even our municipal police departments are para-military forces now.
 
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^Don't a lot of the people who believe the right to bear arms is essential to deter such an invasion, or tyranny of the US government, also believe that they are effectively already undergoing a Mexican invasion, and are already victims of a tyrannical government, and also own lots of guns, that they do fuck-all to solve these problems with, and just use them to shoot their family members more often than criminals? Forgive me if I've not understood the broad contours of certain parts of the political landscape in the states.

I have a confession- I'm unamerican. I am from the UK, live there now. I'm not allowed a handgun. That's OK. I don't need a handgun. The police don't need handguns, either. We get by just fine, and the funny thing is, I am at a hugely lesser risk of being hauled away by paramilitary police to be incarcerated in a privately-run for-profit prison than is a citizen of the United States. It's funny how the land of the free deprives more of its citizens of their liberty than any other nation on the entire planet (Russia, Niger, Iran, Chad...). See, I live in a country where people are openly socialists, and atheists, and think that the way to make schools safer is to have no guns in them, not more. Yet paradoxically, I seem to be more free in many ways. I'm an atheist, and I have Muslim and Jewish and Christian friends, and we are all free to hold those beliefs (free not just from legal sanctions, but social stigma, too). If I was gay, I could enter a legal partnership with the person I wanted to share my life with, like anyone else. If my girlfriend gets pregnant, she can have an abortion. Does the second amendment protect women from the tyranny of men over that deprives them of agency over their own bodies? Does it protect innocent New Mexicans from the tyranny of repeated warrantless body cavity searches? Can anyone actually give a single example of all the guns protecting anyone from governmental oppression? Did Koresh or McVeigh win?

The guns poison not only your nation, but your entire hemisphere, causing the Caribbean and Central American nations to have the highest murder rates in the world (largely because of the huge amounts of money to be made in the international drug trade that is in the hands of criminals because the government of the United States has deprived its people of yet another freedom).You can make your principled arguments, but do you not see the irony of passionately following ideological dogma that flies in the face of pragmatism and experience, whilst holding up pictures of Hitler and Mao and Stalin as examples of how government should not be? Here in the Old World, we do this thing where we change our ideas and our priorities and our laws over time, rather than blindly upholding documents written by people who clearly could not have foreseen what would be politically and socially prudent hundreds of years in the future. We call it "progress". You could look into it.
 
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^Lets make some progress here.

You DO agree that there is a crime problem in the US, no? I assume you can also agree that poverty is a great deal of the cause of violent and property crime, right? And it's undeniable that guns are a common tool in perpetrating this crime.

So, this leaves us with a dilemma. Are you willing to alter socio-economic conditions to eradicate poverty and desperation as much as possible in order to reduce the rate of crime? Or are you more willing to curb the supply of guns as a temporary band-aid over the deeper problem?

Or are you content with rampant crime and violence?
 
It is good that people in the UK like having no gun freedoms! It is so easy to blame a tool for all the problems of a nation, but I do agree it makes thing a whole lot simpler so I can not fault your mindset.
Yeah, people attribute the Industrial Revolution to the steam engine. Idiots. I've heard people say the printing press changed society. It's just a machine! They don't make any difference to how the world is. Liberty is a simple one dimensional concept, so that's cool, as long as no-one says I can't have a gun, I'm free. Perhaps Ayn Rand was wrong, maybe there are instances when the best interests of society as a whole are not actually best served by each member of said society acting out of pure selfish greed, like, maybe everyone wants a gun, but if everyone has a gun, that actually kind of sucks. Maybe there's positive liberty, like the way I can go about my daily business knowing no-one is going to pull a gun on me, perhaps that's worthwhile (I'm being kind of disingenuous here, obviously outside North America everyone knows Ayn Rand wasn't right on the money, and obviously I already made a whole big argument about how the rhetoric of freedom vis-a-vis gun control in the States doesn't really fit with the state of our relative freedoms, which you chose to ignore, and repeat your unconsidered dogma: guns make me free! Then you accuse my ideas of lacking nuance, apparently with no critical self-awareness with regards to what an intellectually bankrupt position that is).
 
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^Don't a lot of the people who believe the right to bear arms is essential to deter such an invasion, or tyranny of the US government, also believe that they are effectively already undergoing a Mexican invasion, and are already victims of a tyrannical government, and also own lots of guns, that they do fuck-all to solve these problems with, and just use them to shoot their family members more often than criminals? Forgive me if I've not understood the broad contours of certain parts of the political landscape in the states.

I have a confession- I'm unamerican. I am from the UK, live there now. I'm not allowed a handgun. That's OK. I don't need a handgun. The police don't need handguns, either. We get by just fine, and the funny thing is, I am at a hugely lesser risk of being hauled away by paramilitary police to be incarcerated in a privately-run for-profit prison than is a citizen of the United States. It's funny how the land of the free deprives more of its citizens of their liberty than any other nation on the entire planet (Russia, Niger, Iran, Chad...). See, I live in a country where people are openly socialists, and atheists, and think that the way to make schools safer is to have no guns in them, not more. Yet paradoxically, I seem to be more free in many ways. I'm an atheist, and I have Muslim and Jewish and Christian friends, and we are all free to hold those beliefs (free not just from legal sanctions, but social stigma, too). If I was gay, I could enter a legal partnership with the person I wanted to share my life with, like anyone else. If my girlfriend gets pregnant, she can have an abortion. Does the second amendment protect women from the tyranny of men over that deprives them of agency over their own bodies? Does it protect innocent New Mexicans from the tyranny of repeated warrantless body cavity searches? Can anyone actually give a single example of all the guns protecting anyone from governmental oppression? Did Koresh or McVeigh win?

The guns poison not only your nation, but your entire hemisphere, causing the Caribbean and Central American nations to have the highest murder rates in the world (largely because of the huge amounts of money to be made in the international drug trade that is in the hands of criminals because the government of the United States has deprived its people of yet another freedom).You can make your principled arguments, but do you not see the irony of passionately following ideological dogma that flies in the face of pragmatism and experience, whilst holding up pictures of Hitler and Mao and Stalin as examples of how government should not be? Here in the Old World, we do this thing where we change our ideas and our priorities and our laws over time, rather than blindly upholding documents written by people who clearly could not have foreseen what would be politically and socially prudent hundreds of years in the future. We call it "progress". You could look into it.

Yeah, people attribute the Industrial Revolution to the steam engine. Idiots. I've heard people say the printing press changed society. It's just a machine! They don't make any difference to how the world is. Liberty is a simple one dimensional concept, so that's cool, as long as no-one says I can't have a gun, I'm free. Perhaps Ayn Rand was wrong, maybe there are instances when the best interests of society as a whole are not actually best served by each member of said society acting out of pure selfish greed, like, maybe everyone wants a gun, but if everyone has a gun, that actually kind of sucks. Maybe there's positive liberty, like the way I can go about my daily business knowing no-one is going to pull a gun on me, perhaps that's worthwhile (I'm being kind of disingenuous here, obviously outside North America everyone knows Ayn Rand wasn't right on the money, and obviously I already made a whole big argument about how the rhetoric of freedom vis-a-vis gun control in the States doesn't really fit with the state of our relative freedoms, which you chose to ignore, and repeat your unconsidered dogma: guns make me free! Then you accuse my ideas of lacking nuance, apparently with no critical self-awareness with regards to what an intellectually bankrupt position that is).

That's amazing. I want to subscribe to your newsletter

It's funny how the land of the free deprives more of its citizens of their liberty than any other nation on the entire planet (Russia, Niger, Iran, Chad...).

Twenty-five percent of the global prison population is now incarcerated in the United States.
 
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Bardo I think we need to attack the socio-economic issues, medication/mental health issues, and try to promote the traditional family as best we can as a nation. I am not against background checking the crap out of someone either.
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Bardo I think we need to attack the socio-economic issues, medication/mental health issues, and try to promote the traditional family as best we can as a nation.

You do realize measures needed to be taken in order to ensure a more equitable distribution of wealth and opportunity will be contrary to the rugged individualist, small government mantras though? Something has to be done, if we want to keep our guns then we need to create an environment where there is no incentive to steal, or rob, or become an instant celebrity by shooting up a crowded area. It's not comfortable people living comfortable lives out there killing one another, statistically.

Although, maybe I've been wrong all this time. We could join forces, Droppers.

NSFW:
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This might just be my naivety, but it seems like the US military could handle a Canadian or Mexican invasion without a militarized American populace.

Even our municipal police departments are para-military forces now.

To all the officials with badges I feel like chattel.
 
The founding fathers could not foresee a time when governments had the potential to murder thousands of their own citizens, and millions of humans abroad. They could not foresee a time when human beings may reserve the right to act against their government with explosives and automatic weapons. The founding fathers seemed to have missed out on the potential for massive abuses of human rights and dignity, as would be established by the revolutions of 1848 and the industrial revolution. And, they could not foresee that socialism may come along.
Point being, people need guns as being the final check and balance upon the actions of government.... Since the military definitely isn't.
 
^^ Where as the unarmed populace of England (specifically London) has revolted against the government quite a number of times (e.g. early poll tax riots).
 
Indeed. Even more fiercely in Greece, Spain, Italy etc.

This demonstrates that guns don't keep a government in check. A willful and determined populace does, in some cases total revolution or regime change doesn't require a single shot to be fired.
 
Indeed. Even more fiercely in Greece, Spain, Italy etc.

This demonstrates that guns don't keep a government in check. A willful and determined populace does, in some cases total revolution or regime change doesn't require a single shot to be fired.

Jesus, can you imagine an American Tahrir Square? It'd be a bloodbath.
 
Indeed. Even more fiercely in Greece, Spain, Italy etc.

This demonstrates that guns don't keep a government in check. A willful and determined populace does, in some cases total revolution or regime change doesn't require a single shot to be fired.
Spot on! It's the size of the mob that is scary to governments, not how well armed they are.

Perhaps being armed acts as a pacifier for the US populace.
 
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