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the gay "gene" = misleading media hype

SoHiAllTheTime said:
LOL You have what, 200 posts? You have no clue about what i have said and done on this board. lol MY little winky was to Dimmo - someone i havent seen here in a while and whom i know from this board, and how nobody on here ever wants to actually study the scripture rather just debate it. Nobody here wants to here the truth.

Why is it you have to respond to everything i say? Didnt you just accuse Turbo of that same thing?

I don't care if I have two posts - go back and read what you wrote about me you half wit. If you think you can figure it out, then get back to me. I didn't even notice the little "winky" (are you REALLY a grown man?) Actually, you don't know half of what you THINK you know b/c I've actually conversed with a few people on here wanting to know more about scripture AND wanting to get their faith back - AND for your information, you don't know me all that well either. I am familiar with this board and have been - just never posted - kinda like you right? After you became a christian - remember, posting that? See, really, I know more than you think I know. Puh-leeze (roflmao) um, look Pharisee - the reason I responded to YOU is b/c you were talking about me - go back and read your post. DUH. You're like one of those "idiot savants," except without the "savant" part.
 
SoHiAllTheTime said:
I never said anything about your sin or mine because we both know we are sinners. I was specifically referring to your defilement of the Word of God by spreading lies about what it says. You just put a lot of words into my mouth, i didnt judge your sin because i have no idea who or what you are, i just know what i have read on this board. Go back and read it again, i talked about things like misrepresenting the Word and diluting the truth. I didnt call you a single name.

Now...go back and read your post and see who is the one who needs to keep a reign on their anger - your post is hate filled with personal attacks, mine was talking about the Bible and truth, nothing personal at all.

Actually, you are talking about yourself Pharisee. Actually, you DID mention me - Gawd, are you really this stupid or is today a special day for you? I think YOU need to go back and re-read
 
SoHiAllTheTime said:
I am having a hard time even following your gibberish. Just read our posts and anyone can see who is being hateful.

rofl.....8) Awww, When God was throwing intelligence down to the Earth, were you holding an umbrella too? You must have been using the same one as your fundie Pharisee friend. ;)
 
HAHAHAHA

How convenient of you guys (Sohi and Dimo) to completely ignore everything I posted regarding those scriptures.

I'm afraid you've been mislead. Why is it that I constantly have to do this with people in this thread..

Once again.... Lets try this again :)

Dimmo and Sohi,

Go back and read my posts... It addresses all the issues dimmo presented directly and debunks all of them... The source is extremely reliable... Go there and see it for yourself. The site is called religious tolerance ...
 
dimmo said:
Here it is again with the Greek words they used (Please follow me on this):

9 . . . Be not deceived: neither fornicators [PORNOI], nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate [MALAKOI], nor abusers of themselves with mankind [ARSENOKOITAI], 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

There has been a little confusion as to the meaning Paul was trying to give here. The Greek word used for 'homosexuals' is arsenokoitai. That is made out of two words, arseno and koitai.

Well, apparently the meaning of the term arsenokoitai is not as clear as you would wish...here's a more objective treatment of the term:

The original Greek text describes the two behaviors as "malakoi" (some sources quote "malakee,") and "arsenokoitai." Although these is often translated by modern Bibles as "homosexual," we can be fairly certain that this is not the meaning that Paul wanted to convey. If he had, he would have used the Greek word "paiderasste." That was the standard term at the time for male homosexuals. We can conclude that he probably meant something different from persons who engaged in male-male adult sexual behavior.

"Malakoi" is translated in both Matthew 11:8 and Luke 7:25 as "soft" (KJV) or as "fine" (NIV) in references to clothing. It could also mean "loose" or "pliable," as in the phrase "loose morals," implying "unethical behavior." In the early Christian church, the words were interpreted by some as referring to persons who are pliable, easily influenced, without courage or stability. Non-Biblical writings of the era used the world to refer to lazy men, men who cannot handle hard work, and cowards. [John] Wesley's Bible Notes defines "Malakoi" as those "Who live in an easy, indolent way; taking up no cross, enduring no hardship." 6

One knowledgeable but anonymous reviewer of our web site said that the word translated here as "effeminate" really "means men not working or advancing ideas so as to concern themselves with love only. Not working for the good of the whole....Our present culture has all sorts of connotations associated with the word 'effeminate' that simply don't apply" to Paul's era. It would seem that the word "effeminate" can only be regarded as a mistranslation.

"Arsenokoitai" is made up of two parts: "arsen" means "man"; "koitai" means "beds." The Septuagint (an ancient, pre-Christian translation of the Old Testament into Greek) translated the Hebrew "quadesh" in I Kings 14:24, 15:12 and 22:46 as "arsenokoitai." They were referring to "male temple prostitutes" - people who engaged in ritual sex in Pagan temples. 4

Some leaders in the early Christian church also thought that it meant temple prostitutes. Some authorities believe that it simply means male prostitutes with female customers - a practice which appears to have been a common practice in the Roman Empire.

One source refers to other writings which contained the word "arsenokoitai:" (Sibylline Oracles 2.70-77, Acts of John; Theophilus of Antioch Ad Autolycum). They suggest that the term refers "to some kind of economic exploitation by means of sex (but no necessarily homosexual sex)." 2 Probably "pimp" or "man living off of the avails of prostitution" would be the closest English translations.

It is worth noting that "[Though] much Greek homosexual erotic literature has survived, none of it contains the word arsenokoitai."

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibc1.htm

And anyway, I would tend to view with great skepticism anything Paul had to say condemning homosexuality, since he was most likely a self-loathing homosexual himself.

The man never married, and constantly referred to the "thorn in the flesh" that bedeviled him. If that ain't homoerotic imagery, I don't know what is. He also maintained close companionships with a number of younger men, most notably Timothy.

Quite frankly, you Christians ought to be calling yourselves Paulians, because he is pretty much the one whose gospel you worship. Paul pretty much co-opted a Jewish shamanic prophet's spiritual truths into a form of religion that would be more easily adopted by the pagan Romans.
 
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And anyway, I would tend to view with great skepticism anything Paul had to say condemning homosexuality, since he was most likely a self-loathing homosexual himself.

The man never married, and constantly referred to the "thorn in the flesh" that bedeviled him. If that ain't homoerotic imagery, I don't know what is.


Remaining single and having a painful physical ailment does not make one gay.

Why is the guilt always projected onto those who oppose homosexuality?

I'm sure we all know that there's a huge divide between those who say god doesn't give salvation to homosexuals and others.

Salvation is offered to everybody who acknowledges their sins and accepts Christ as the absolution for them.
 
Turbo Monk said:


Why is the guilt always projected onto those who oppose homosexuality?


Because a great many of the homophobes are (spawn) like the next door neighbor in american beauty. Worse yet, are the bigots whom condem the action because they use the action towards the young, inexperienced and fragile, thus their expieriments are eating away at their minds, the minds that play god. Theories become increasingly disproovable, because the "observer's" idle time has run a muck on the choice of hetero and homosexual existance as a whole.
 

Why is the guilt always projected onto those who oppose homosexuality?


Part of the reason could be because a lot of people become frustrated with the fact that some people who are against homosexuality will never listen to a word anybody has to say. You are one of those people, and if you dont know what I'm talking just take a look at your responses to my posts. They dont address anything that I brought up.

I have seen a number of people say show me this, show me that, have a discussion without throwing words, insults, dont project guilt.. etc.. etc... When I try to do that, I either get ignored or everything I said is just put aside and not addressed even indirectly. It gets to be tiresome.

What is the point of having a discussion if its not really a discussion? Seems like for the most part those who oppose homosexuality are the ones who wont listen to reason. I mean, the same thing you use evidence to prove your claim does not even directly approach the issue of homosexuality. If you take all word for word translations of scriptures in the most literal sense, no act of homosexuality is mentioned.

Besides, if it was referring to sexuality... It would mean that homosexuals are to be put to death. Do you honestly believe in putting them to death? What kind of fucked up shit is that? Should somebody condemn you to death for being christian because they believe in their own interpretation of a not completely accurate translation of something some book says? Where is the reason or logic behind that?

Deroxor,


Honestly, I dont see how this could be interpreted in many ways. This is just a guess, but I would say most people who read that would think it means "Homosexuality is an abomination". My question is, how many ways can that be interpreted in and still make sense. How would you understand that statement???


Just listen to the statement. "And a man who will lie down with a male in beds of a woman, both of them have made an abomination; dying they will die. Their blood is on them."

I dont know to me it sounds pretty clear.

If man lies down with another man in some womens bed, this is an abomination. They will die with their blood on their body.

Makes sense to me..

Another version could be..

If a man pretends that another man is not really a man but a woman while lying next to him in bed and the other men is ok with that, that is disgusting. When they die, they will not be happy with the way they have lived their life and feel perverted.

Another version could be..

If a man cheats on his wife with a man while pretending that that man is his wife, that is disgusting and the people doing it will be disgusted with themselves so much that emotionally they will be dying. They will eventually die in this same state from commiting suicide in such a way that their blood will be on their body.

I could go on and on and on and on and on...... You see, interpretations mean fucking nothing. The literal translation is as close as you get. If you take what it says literally ... It does not mention any homosexual act..
 
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Turbo Monk said:
Remaining single and having a painful physical ailment does not make one gay.

Why is the guilt always projected onto those who oppose homosexuality?

Dude, I'm not the only one who has postulated this...quite a few of your Christian brethren, including noted scholars and members of the clergy, have also held this view:

"His character was torn apart by inner conflicts. One trouble was that he suffered on occasion from what he describes as a "scolops", a "thorn" in the flesh, a disability of which he three times asked God to relieve him, without success. Certain Fathers of the Church and many subsequent writers thought it referred to sexual temptation.

The great Pauline scholar, Arthur Darby Nock, although unwilling to commit himself on the meaning of the particular phrase in question, has lent his authority to this interpretation of Paul's general attitude: "The point of difficulty for him perhaps lay in sexual desire, of which he speaks." Paul's hostility to sex cannot be entirely attributed to his belief in the imminence of the Second Coming. His unmistakably pejorative attitude does raise insistent questions about his own tastes and practices. Suppressed and frustrated sexual desire, then, may be the "thorn in the flesh" of which Paul complains."

-- Michael Grant
St. Paul, 1967


"The war that went on between what he desired with his mind and what he desired with his body, his drivenness to a legalistic religion of control, his fear when that system was threatened, his attitude toward women, his refusal to seek marriage as an outlet for his passion -- nothing else accounts for this data as well as the possibility that Paul was gay."

"To me it is a beautiful idea that a homosexual male, scorned then as well as now, living with both the self-judgment and the social judgments that a fearful society has so often and unknowingly pronounced upon the very being of some of its citizens, could nonetheless, not in spite of this but because of this, be the one who would define grace for the Christian people. Grace was the love of God, an unconditional love, that loved Paul just as he was. A rigidly controlled gay male, I believe, taught the Christian church what the love of God means and what, therefore, Christ means as God's agent. Finally, it was a gay male, tortured and rejected, who came to understand what resurrection means as God's vindicating act."

--John Shelby Spong, Episcopalian Bishop of Newark (heterosexual and married, btw)


"A man is better off having no relations with a woman." 1 Cor. 7:1.
 
glowbug said:
Well, apparently the meaning of the term arsenokoitai is not as clear as you would wish...here's a more objective treatment of the term:

The original Greek text describes the two behaviors as "malakoi" (some sources quote "malakee,") and "arsenokoitai." Although these is often translated by modern Bibles as "homosexual," we can be fairly certain that this is not the meaning that Paul wanted to convey. If he had, he would have used the Greek word "paiderasste." That was the standard term at the time for male homosexuals. We can conclude that he probably meant something different from persons who engaged in male-male adult sexual behavior.

"Malakoi" is translated in both Matthew 11:8 and Luke 7:25 as "soft" (KJV) or as "fine" (NIV) in references to clothing. It could also mean "loose" or "pliable," as in the phrase "loose morals," implying "unethical behavior." In the early Christian church, the words were interpreted by some as referring to persons who are pliable, easily influenced, without courage or stability. Non-Biblical writings of the era used the world to refer to lazy men, men who cannot handle hard work, and cowards. [John] Wesley's Bible Notes defines "Malakoi" as those "Who live in an easy, indolent way; taking up no cross, enduring no hardship." 6

One knowledgeable but anonymous reviewer of our web site said that the word translated here as "effeminate" really "means men not working or advancing ideas so as to concern themselves with love only. Not working for the good of the whole....Our present culture has all sorts of connotations associated with the word 'effeminate' that simply don't apply" to Paul's era. It would seem that the word "effeminate" can only be regarded as a mistranslation.

"Arsenokoitai" is made up of two parts: "arsen" means "man"; "koitai" means "beds." The Septuagint (an ancient, pre-Christian translation of the Old Testament into Greek) translated the Hebrew "quadesh" in I Kings 14:24, 15:12 and 22:46 as "arsenokoitai." They were referring to "male temple prostitutes" - people who engaged in ritual sex in Pagan temples. 4

Some leaders in the early Christian church also thought that it meant temple prostitutes. Some authorities believe that it simply means male prostitutes with female customers - a practice which appears to have been a common practice in the Roman Empire.

One source refers to other writings which contained the word "arsenokoitai:" (Sibylline Oracles 2.70-77, Acts of John; Theophilus of Antioch Ad Autolycum). They suggest that the term refers "to some kind of economic exploitation by means of sex (but no necessarily homosexual sex)." 2 Probably "pimp" or "man living off of the avails of prostitution" would be the closest English translations.

It is worth noting that "[Though] much Greek homosexual erotic literature has survived, none of it contains the word arsenokoitai."

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibc1.htm


Glowbug, one of the main sources for the 'article' above came from Christianity, Social Tolerance & Homosexuality (1980) by a chap named Boswell.

Here is an analysis of that from my good mate Stephen C. You'll find that what you pasted was of poor quality ;)

http://www.mindspring.com/~scarlson/greek/boswell.html
 
Originally posted by glowbug
"A man is better off having no relations with a woman." 1 Cor. 7:1.



Why did you paste (and bold) this Bible verse? Am I right in guessing that you pasted this verse which at first glance appears to be relevant to the topic at hand, but you have no idea what is really being talked about?
 
Yeah, I'm sure to take the word of your "good mate's" unpublished blog. 8)

Hoo boy, no agenda there from an uncredentialed and un-peer reviewed source, no sir...8)
 
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dimmo said:
Why did you paste (and bold) this Bible verse? Am I right in guessing that you pasted this verse which at first glance appears to be relevant to the topic at hand, but you have no idea what is really being talked about?

Because it's generally indicative of Paul's view toward women, which supports the theory that he was gay.
 
LOL.

It truly is laughable reading what people have to say about Christianity on Bluelight.

It's so common for people, like you, to find one verse - thinking it means something it doesn't - and using that as a basis for more ridiculous claims ;)

No different to people constantly quoting Matthew 7:1 regarding judging; people quoting skepticsannotedbible only to find out later there were for inconsistencies - but OOPS, you'd think they'd check first... wouldn't you? :)

No, no, no. That's not the Bluelight style. Just like the time Psychoblast kept saying that Bethlehem was a person, saying it shows just how poor my reasoning and understanding of the Bible really was... when we all know there wasn't a person called Bethlehem at all! TRY RESEARCHING yourself, before you just paste crap which you have no knowledge of anyway.

Yeah, I'm sure to take the word of your "good mate's" unpublished blog.

Hoo boy, no agenda there from an uncredentialed and un-peer reviewed source, no sir...


It's ok, Glowbug. I understand it's a little out of your league.

After all, it would require READING the Bible. 8)
 
Glowbug, recommended reading for you:

Gagnon, Robert A. J., The Bible and Homosexual Practice: Texts and Hermeneutics, Nashville, Abingdon Press, 2001

If you happen to find a PDF/DOC copy online, let me know!
 
^^^Sorry, but I don't do your homework for you...and I don't accept uncredentialed, unreviewed "good mate" blogs as authoritative over published works.

And like I said, it's not like I made up the theory on Paul's homosexuality.

Again, I quoted the verse to reflect generally on Paul's noted aversion to intimacy with women. That's WELL documented. Just because the verse I quoted may not be DIRECTLY on point doesn't mean there isn't a wealth of other evidence, AS NUMEROUS SCHOLARS HAVE NOTED, to support the theory. So go ahead, stick your head back in the sand and ignore the theory if you wish...doesn't mean there isn't enough evidence out there to lead serious scholars to conclude Paul was gay.

By the way, how does it feel to know that the foundational work of your religion, in which you wholeheartedly endorse discrimination against gays, may have been laid down by A FLAMING SISSY-BOY TWINKIE? ;)

Wouldn't that be the ultimate joke on you? How rich would that be? You anti-gay Paulians being led in the Paulian Pride Parade by SISTER RU-PAUL OF THE IMMACULATE DECEPTION!

I gotta tell ya, I'd laugh my ass off at that one!
 
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Originally posted by glowbug
It is worth noting that "[Though] much Greek homosexual erotic literature has survived, none of it contains the word arsenokoitai."

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibc1.htm

And anyway, I would tend to view with great skepticism anything Paul had to say condemning homosexuality, since he was most likely a self-loathing homosexual himself.


Yeah, I'm sure to take the word of your "good mate's" unpublished blog.

Hoo boy, no agenda there from an uncredentialed and un-peer reviewed source, no sir...


Right.... so you send me to that website above... and what do we see as its references at the bottom of the page? :)

2. "How to be true to the Bible and say 'Yes' to same-sex unions," at: http://members.aol.com/DrSwiney/bennett.html

3. The Lesbian, Gay, and Bisexual Catholic Handbook contains many articles devoted to a detailed analysis of homosexuality and the Bible. See: http://www.bway.net/~halsall/lgbh.html#c3

4. Paul Thomas Cahill, "An investigation into the Bible and homosexuality," at: http://www.yougogirl.com/

5. "Celebrating diversity: texts recently applied to homosexuality," at: http://members.tripod.com/~uniting/resource/bible.html

6. "Wesley's Notes: 1 Corinthians 6," at: http://www.godrules.net/library/

7. "Robertson's Word Studies - 1 Corinthians 6," at: http://www.godrules.net/library/


2: What we have here is an 'uncredentialed and un-peer reviewed source'
3. URL NOT FOUND - although, I have a sneaking suspicion from the URL it's a USERS personal webpage, as above.
4. URL NOT FOUND
5. members.tripod.com? This is another 'uncredentialed and un-peer reviewed source' webpage, which also gives bad information! :) This can easily be apparent when you READ it and CHECK with the Bible! :)
6. Loads a copy of 1 Corinthians 6 with what looks like Strong's concordances.
7. URL NOT FOUND


Haha. That made my evening! :)

Gee, and I was right. Some people on here continually paste rubbish which they don't check one iota.
 
^Oh boy, they didnt realize what they were up against with 'ol Dimmo did they? hehe ;)

Isnt it funny Dimmo how it is the same old song and dance only from different people his time? BL reallly gives me a laugh sometimes. Awesome posts bro! :)
 
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