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the gay "gene" = misleading media hype

Leviticus 18:22

This is a passage from the Mosaic Code that is often used to condemn homosexual behavior in general. In transliterated Hebrew, the verse is written: "V’et zachar lo tishkav mishk’vey eeshah toeyvah hee."

The first part of this verse is literally translated as "And with a male you shall not lay lyings of a woman"

Which is the correct translation?

Obviously, it is important for a student of the Bible to resolve exactly what behavior is forbidden: is it:

All homosexual behavior, by either men or women, or
All sexual behavior between two men, or
Only anal sex between two men, or
Only anal sex in a Pagan temple ritual, or
Sexual activity between two men in a woman's bed?

Unfortunately, there is no consensus on the meaning of this verse. Many people tend to select that interpretation that most closely reinforces their initial beliefs about the Bible and homosexual behavior.


http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibh.htm
 
Turbo Monk said:
Miss_Spitfire,

Do you think murder is wrong?
Click to expand...

Do I think murder is wrong? Do you think I think murder is wrong? Do you think murder is wrong? Tell ya what Pharisee, I really think you need to ask someone else who hasn't had to deal with your bigoted, homophobic, bible thumpin, religious terrorism views........mmmmmmmmmkay? ;)
 
skywise said:
You know, I've noticed that he tends to mostly respond to your posts too. My guess was it was because a Christian believing something different than him threatens the promise of something immutable that he can always cling to in the Christian faith much more than than if we infadels disagree with him. Then again, maybe I wasn't the only one who found your clever responses to his bigotry attractive, in which case perhaps Turbo Monk is a bit bolder than I thought.
Click to expand...

Thanks sweetie! ;) Glad I'm not the only one who noticed.........;)
 
From a Rabbi discussing the Torah .. on the topic of the passages in Leviticus and scriptures regarding homosexuality in general.


...................................................
QUESTION - What about the passages in Leviticus, especially in chapter 18, verse 22 and chapter 20, verse 13? Does not these verses specifically prohibit male to male sexual acts?

ANSWER - First, let's take a look at the passages you are referring to; Leviticus 18: 22; which states: "V-et zachar lo tishkav mishkevey eeshah TOEYVAH hee." (Do not lie (sexually) with a male as you would with a woman, since this is an abomination (TOEYVAH).

And, Leviticus 20: 13, which states: "V-eesh asher yishkav et-zakhar mishkevey eeshah TOEYVAH. Asu shenayhem mot yumatu dameyhem bam." (If a man has sexual intercourse with a male person, in the same manner as with a woman, they have both committed a TOEYVAH (an idolatrous abhorence). They shall die by their blood being upon them).

These two verses are found in the book originally written as a handbook for the Priesthood of the Tribe of Levi, thus the name Leviticus. It was not meant, when written, as a rule book for all Israelites until after the time of Ezra (5th century BCE). That said, to use it as ammunition against a loving, caring, homosexual relationship is to take it out of context.

Leviticus 18: 1-4, which is the beginning of this particular message, states: "Vaydaber YHVH el-Mosheh leymor: Daber el-Bnai Yisrael veamarta aleyhem" (verses 2-3) "Anee YHVH Elohaykhem!" (I Am is ADONAI your Creator God!) "Kema'aseh eretz-Mitzrayim asher yishavtem-bah; lo ta'asu" (You shall not imitate the cultic sexual practices of the land of Egypt where you previously dwelt) "ukhma'aseh eretz-Canaan asher Anee meyvee etkhem shamah; lo ta'asu uv'chukoteyhem, lo telekhu!" (or of the land of Canaan to which I Am is guiding you; you shall not follow after their laws.) "Et-mishpatai ta'asu veet-chukotai tishmiru lelekhet bahem. Anee YHVH Elohaykhem!" (My laws alone shall you observe, faithfulling doing them. I Am is ADONAI your Creator God!)

The rules that then follow are the rules that the Israelite Priesthood was not to follow in their cultic practices. According to Rabbi Jacob Milgrom, the translator and commentator of the prestigious Anchor Bible Series Translation of the Book of Leviticus, and the Jewish Publication Society Commentary on the Book of Numbers, these texts are referring to non-Israelite religious sexual and sexual abuse practices that Israelites were not to imitate when they came into the Land of Israel. It has nothing whatsoever to do with what we today term as being homosexuality.

If we examine these texts according to the Talmudic methods of hermeneutics, we find that on the basis of the Baraitha d'Rabbi Ishmael in the Sifra, on Leviticus, written in the mid-second century of the Common Era, and recited EVERYDAY in our Daily and Shabbat Morning Prayers, Rabbi Ishmael says: "The Torah is interpreted by means of thirteen rules. (Rule Four is...) When a generalization is followed by a specification, only what specifies applies (Miklal u'frat)." The generalization is the text; A man shall not lay with a man.... The specification is the text; ...as you would with a woman.

Based upon this earliest method of Jewish Torah interpretation, the biblical passages in Leviticus 18: 22 and also in Leviticus 20: 13, do not refer to homosexual activity at all as one of the males is heterosexual or perhaps bisexual, and is SUBSTITUTING the other male body for that of a woman in this cultic fertility ceremony. It is not the normal homosexual practice for one man to lie with another man thinking that his partner is a woman; as though he were laying with a woman. In fact, if a man was thinking of his sexual partner as though he were a woman, and not a man, it would not be a homosexual relationship, as one of the parties involved is PRETENDING that the person he is laying with is a woman. It is actually a permissive sexual situation in which the first man is USING the body of the sexual partner as a SUBSTITUTE for a PREFERRED female body. If we read the Torah this way, as it clearly is to be read, it is warning this kind of person that certain types of substitutional sexual behavior are not permitted, especially in a religious context.

QUESTION - Do you feel that allowing homosexuals the right to a legal civil marriage is detrimental to heterosexual marriages?

ANSWER - Not at all! First, you must explain to me how the marriage of ANY two people who love and care for each other will affect my own heterosexual marriage in any way. I think that if I am committed to staying in my marriage, no amount of outside influence would affect it. That said, I think that it is a great sin to not allow homosexuals the same civil rights as anyone else, including the rights and obligations around marriage and divorce.

QUESTION - A SIN? How so? That sounds like you believe that denying homosexuals the right to marry is against the Will of God.

ANSWER - That is correct. I think that denying homosexuals the right to marry and form families denies the Torah mandate to "peru urvu umil'u et-ha'aretz" (bear fruit, multiply and fill the earth) which was the first command that God gave to the androgenous Adam, before God took the female Adam from the side of the male Adam (Genesis 1: 28).

Previously, before modern medicine made it possible for in-vitro fertilization, sperm donor programs, and surrogate implantation, etc., it was almost impossible for two males or two females to be in a loving, long term monogamous relationship that could traditionally be defined as a marriage, IF you define a marriage as two people coming together to create a family with children. However, with many childless heterosexual marriages, and with many marriages ending in divorce, I question this defination of marriage.

By Torah standards, any marriage that did not allow for the propagation of the species, i.e. homosexuality or celibacy or barrenness, could be disolved by a divorce, but did not have to be. The fact that God is reputed to have said: "Lo-tov hayot haadam levado, e'ehseh-lo ezer kenigdo (It is not a good thing for a human-being to be alone; I will make a fitting helper for it), informs me that God's idea of marriage is that of companionship. Witness the physical barrenness of the major women in the Hebrew Bible whose child producing abilities were through intervention from Heaven. Today, homosexuals are producing children by the "miracles" of modern medicine, plus they are adopting previously unwanted children and giving them loving families to grow up in. I think the sin is that those who pretend to support the Will of God are doing everything they can to thwart that Will.


http://www.affirmation.org/learning/homosexuality_in_the_torah.asp
 
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Ok, I looked up the others. Basically, NONE of those scriptures directly address the issue of homosexuality. NONE of them.

You can interpret those passages many different ways. If you take any of them literally, none of them actually address the issue of homosexuality at all.

If you resort to interpretations of translations. For every translation or interpretation that you find which point to homosexuality. I can find one you that doesn't for the same passage.

That speaks for itself...

What do you have to say about any of this? Your interpretation is obviously the right one because you just decided that? Do you realize that you believe the word of god, but so do millions of other people who do not agree with you?
 
Tr6ai0ls4 said:

"V'ish asher yishkav et zachar mishk'vei ishah to'evah asu shneihem mot yumatu d'meihem bam."

Literal word for word translation:

"And a man who will lie down with a male in beds of a woman, both of them have made an abomination; dying they will die. Their blood is on them."

This could be interpreted so many differents ways. It doesn't even necessary have to have anything to do with a homosexual act. It just says, a man lying down with a man in a womans bed.
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Honestly, I dont see how this could be interpreted in many ways. This is just a guess, but I would say most people who read that would think it means "Homosexuality is an abomination". My question is, how many ways can that be interpreted in and still make sense. How would you understand that statement???
 
Miss Spitfire,

You must think murder is okay because you obviously ignore Christ's commission for us to obey the Mosaic Law.

Your pandering to gain unbeliever acceptance by blantantly ignoring and lying about the Word of God is only pushing God further out of yours and their lives. You are disgracefully whoring out the gospel in your valiant campaign to not offend anyone by staying socially and politically correct.

Tr6ai0ls4,

The answer is right there in front of you. God finds homosexual behavior detestable. Women are subject to the law as well.
 
^
Well since God didn't mention lesbians ANYWHERE in the Bible.. Miss Spitfire can still be non-judgemental to them right .. i mean.. if god didn't mention it, then it must not be important.
 
Turbo Monk said:
God finds homosexual behavior detestable.
Click to expand...

here's a question: if god finds homosexuality so detestable, why doesn't a phrase like

"and then the lord thy god said I HATE HOMOSEXUALITY"

appear in the bible?

don't blow any fuses trying to answer that.

now personally, if i, as an omnipresent omnipotent being, observed behavior in my minions i found utterly detestable i would put a stop to it - but why would we expect your god to act in any sort of a rational manner?
 
skywise said:




You know, I've noticed that he tends to mostly respond to your posts too. My guess was it was because a Christian believing something different than him threatens the promise of something immutable that he can always cling to in the Christian faith much more than than if we infadels disagree with him. Then again, maybe I wasn't the only one who found your clever responses to his bigotry attractive, in which case perhaps Turbo Monk is a bit bolder than I thought.
Click to expand...

No, thats not why...Because the Bible plainly says He hates luke-warm christians. People like spitfire who claim to be a christian and defile the Word of God by changing what it says or means because of what they think or feel are very destructive to those christians who believe that the Word calls us to be seperate from the world - and not to confirm to its ways...people like her dilute that truth.

People like her are the reason why there are so many "different" ways of interpreting the Bible. They take the work of God into their own hands and try to have things both ways, on one hand they can enjoy the things of this world and on the other they get to reap the benefits of believing in God. But if they actually studied the Bible they would know it warns against this behavior, and they are only fooling themselves. In the Book of James it says that "you do well in believing in one God. Even the Demons believe in God; and they tremble". What it is talking about is that saying you believe means NOTHING, if you believe your actions will show it.

He is not singling her out for the reason you said, he is doing it because she is the only one who is misrepresenting christianity, and is the one who God commands christians to accountable for their actions. The command to not judge is saved for chrisitans judging NONCHRISTIANS - that is the work of the Lord...but for those who claim the faith - they are open to criticism from fellow believers at all times.
 
1 Cor 6:9 does talk about homosexuals... but I can see how it can be confusing for some of you :) I made some of this post some time ago, but hey, it's certainly relevant :p


1 Corinthians 6:9, in six different translations:

King James Version:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

New King James Version:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

New American Standard Version:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit R214 the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

New Living Translation:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't you know that those who do wrong will have no share in the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, who are idol worshipers, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Revised Standard Version:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Message:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't you realize that this is not the way to live? Unjust people who don't care about God will not be joining in his kingdom. Those who use and abuse each other, use and abuse sex
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Lets look closer at 1 Cor.

Here it is again with the Greek words they used (Please follow me on this):

9 . . . Be not deceived: neither fornicators [PORNOI], nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate [MALAKOI], nor abusers of themselves with mankind [ARSENOKOITAI], 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

There has been a little confusion as to the meaning Paul was trying to give here. The Greek word used for 'homosexuals' is arsenokoitai. That is made out of two words, arseno and koitai.

The plural of koitai is koiths (used in Romans 13:13 as debauchery).

Here are a few words which use "koiths"

DOULOKOITHS
consorting with slaves,
MHTROKOITHS
incestuous person, i.e. with mother,
PARAKOITHS
bedfellow,
KLEYIKOITHS
seeking illicit sex,
ANDROKOITHS
having intercourse with a man,
hHMEROKOITHS
sleeping by day,
XAMAKOITHS
sleeping on the ground,
ENWTOKOITHS
with ears large enough to sleep in,
BORBOROKOITHS
in the mud--relating to a kind of frog,
AKOITHS
bedfellow,
SUGKOITHS
bedfellow,
hOMOKOITHS
bedfellow,
DEUTEROKOITEW
to have a bedfellow,
POLUKOITOS
sleeping with many men or women,
ADELFOKOITIA
incest of brother or sister,

From that, you can clearly see that those words are generally follow the same pattern, and are sexual/sleeping with type terms.

There are many words with the first part of arsenokoitai (arseno- or in its Attic form, Arreno-)

ARRENOGAMEW
to marry men,
ARRENOGONEW
to bear male children,
ARRENOKOITHS (Attic form)
a sodomite,
ARRENOKUEW
to bear male children,
ARRENOMANHS
mad after males,
ARRENOMIKTHS ~ ARSENOMIKTHS
sodomite,
ARRENOMICIA
sodomy,
ARRENOOMAI
to become a man, and
ARRENOPIPHS
one who looks lewdly on males. one who looks lewdly on males

The first part is 'male'. From this it could be something like 'male-bedder'.

Remember there was no word for a 'homosexual' in those times. The term homosexual was invented in 1862. I also believe that 1 Cor 6:9 is a direct reference to two parts of Leviticus, check it out:

Leviticus 18:22 KAI META ARSENOS OU KOIMHQHSHi KOITHN GUNAIKEIAN, BDELUGMA GAR ESTI.

Translated...

Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Leviticus 20:13 KAI hOS AN KOIMHQHi META ARSENOS KOITHN GUNAIKOS, BDELUGMA EPOIHSAN AMFOTEROI: QANATWi QANATOUSQWSAN, ENOIXOI EISIN

^^ WOW! And translated...

Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

^^ Very clear here to me... thoughts anyone?

Paul has simply used (or even coined) a word that strongly alludes to the Levitical verse. This is not a technique unknown to Paul. In 2Co6:14, Paul coopted the compound HETEROZUGOUNTES which normally meant "mismatched" in the Greek world to allude to Lv19:19 and all of its connotations in being "unequally yoked." Similarly, Paul probably used ARSENOKOITHS to pick up both the genericity of the the activity (a man lying with a man as with a woman) and its accompanying moral condemnation

Louw and Nida (http://gramcord.org/) define ARSENOKOITHS as "a male partner in homosexual intercourse - homosexual'.

The fact that the ARSENOKOITHS is already a rare term, euphemistic, and apparently coined within a small Christian community to allude to a Levitical prohibition readily explains why other Christian writers would use words that were either more current or provocative.
 
^You are going way too deep bro, that type of stuff is saved for those of us who are willing to accept the truth. The rest would just ignore it and believe what they want. ;)
 
SoHiAllTheTime said:
No, thats not why...Because the Bible plainly says He hates luke-warm christians. People like spitfire who claim to be a christian and defile the Word of God by changing what it says or means because of what they think or feel are very destructive to those christians who believe that the Word calls us to be seperate from the world - and not to confirm to its ways...people like her dilute that truth.

People like her are the reason why there are so many "different" ways of interpreting the Bible. They take the work of God into their own hands and try to have things both ways, on one hand they can enjoy the things of this world and on the other they get to reap the benefits of believing in God. But if they actually studied the Bible they would know it warns against this behavior, and they are only fooling themselves. In the Book of James it says that "you do well in believing in one God. Even the Demons believe in God; and they tremble". What it is talking about is that saying you believe means NOTHING, if you believe your actions will show it.

He is not singling her out for the reason you said, he is doing it because she is the only one who is misrepresenting christianity, and is the one who God commands christians to accountable for their actions. The command to not judge is saved for chrisitans judging NONCHRISTIANS - that is the work of the Lord...but for those who claim the faith - they are open to criticism from fellow believers at all times.
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roflmao - oh, I see SOHI is a modern day pharisee too - I didn't realize you too were a homophobic, bigoted, religious terrorist. How nice for you. Rofl...Ya know Pharisee #2 (I'll call you #2 to seperate you from Pharisee #1) God wants spiritual fruit, not religious nutsyou fool. I'm glad to see you're not letting your education get in the way of your ignorance. Care to spew hate and judge me again you bigoted Pharisee? I can certainly handle a little boy like yourself. You crack me up - you CLAIM to be a christian and all holier than thou and yet you sit there and down me (when I have done nothing to your bigoted rump) just b/c I disagree with you. You certainly have no right to speak to me about being un-true to Christianity. See, the difference between me and you Pharisee, is that people KNOW where they stand with me. I'm real, I'm honest and I don't pretend to know all the answers and I don't hide behind the bible like you do to spew your hate. If you think about it, you're worse than Hitler. SO before you go talking about something you know nothing about Pharisee, I suggest you think twice before you open that vile mouth of yours. If you have a problem with something I said - well, YOU ARE open to criticism from a fellow believer Pharisee.
 
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SoHiAllTheTime said:
^You are going way too deep bro, that type of stuff is saved for those of us who are willing to accept the truth. The rest would just ignore it and believe what they want. ;)
Click to expand...

ATTENTION ALL BLUE LIGHTERS - SOHI IS CLAIMING TO BE WAY SMARTER THAN ANY OF YOU. He thinks that we're all too stupid to interpret the scriptures b/c we do not see it his way. Typical of a modern day Pharisee. No wonder so many turn from Christianity - with people like you SOHI - you TURN people away from it.
 
I never said anything about your sin or mine because we both know we are sinners. I was specifically referring to your defilement of the Word of God by spreading lies about what it says. You just put a lot of words into my mouth, i didnt judge your sin because i have no idea who or what you are, i just know what i have read on this board. Go back and read it again, i talked about things like misrepresenting the Word and diluting the truth. I didnt call you a single name.

Now...go back and read your post and see who is the one who needs to keep a reign on their anger - your post is hate filled with personal attacks, mine was talking about the Bible and truth, nothing personal at all.
 
Miss_Spitfire said:
ATTENTION ALL BLUE LIGHTERS - SOHI IS CLAIMING TO BE WAY SMARTER THAN ANY OF YOU. He thinks that we're all too stupid to interpret the scriptures b/c we do not see it his way. Typical of a modern day Pharisee. No wonder so many turn from Christianity - with people like you SOHI - you TURN people away from it.
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LOL You have what, 200 posts? You have no clue about what i have said and done on this board. lol MY little winky was to Dimmo - someone i havent seen here in a while and whom i know from this board, and how nobody on here ever wants to actually study the scripture rather just debate it. Nobody here wants to here the truth.

Why is it you have to respond to everything i say? Didnt you just accuse Turbo of that same thing?
 
^
sohi ;)

This quote could be relevant here ;)

If you believe what you like in the Gospel, and reject what
you don’t like, it is not the Gospel you believe, but yourself.
 
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