The Ferguson Thread: Part II

[ebola?]

Whoa: the following interview with Judith Butler is both topical and comprehensible. I think that it does well in linking wider socio-historical forces, diffuse cultural forms and social technologies through which we render each other identifiable and comprehensible, and on-the-ground practices of violence. In particular, it begins to specify the fashion in which black lives don't matter in our society and how we got to this point:

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.co...es-matter/?ref=opinion&assetType=opinion&_r=1

ebola

 

[LosBlancos]

http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/25686-the-ferguson-effect-on-our-great-grandchildren

The Ferguson Effect on Our Great-Grandchildren

Excerpt: "...Because of epigenetics, whenever there's war, violence, poverty, famine or just about any other stressful situation, not only are our bodies changing, but those of future generations will, too.

That's why it's so important that we do everything possible to protect future generations by making the world work well today.

For example, we must confront America's racism and poverty epidemics head-on and start building a larger and more inclusive middle class, so that communities like Ferguson can leave the stress of poverty behind.

At the same time, we need to be creating a safer world, free of major stressors like wars, violence, and militarized police occupations.

Basically, we need to be working towards a more nurturing society..."

Is there any scientific proof toward's this? I can't reconcile this idea with so many examples to the contrary. For one look at the Jewish community, they went through horrible atrocities in the 1940's which is fairly recent, yet on average have demonstrated to have the highest IQ among the American's (especially in the verbal and reasoning subtests, Asian-Americans typically score higher in the visuospatial tests).

From Wikipedia: "Americans of Jewish descent have been disproportionately successful in many fields and aspects over the years.^[12][13] The Jewish community in America has gone from a lower class minority, with most studies putting upwards of 80% as manual factory laborers prior to World War I and with the majority of fields barred to them,^[14]to the consistent richest or second richest ethnicity in America for the past 40 years in terms of average annual salary, with extremely high concentrations in academia and other fields, and today have the highest per capita income of any ethnic group in the United States, at around double the average income of non-Jewish Americans"

This does not compute. I could produce numerous other examples but this was the most poignant to me to suggest that heritiability of violence and faminine is an utter farce.

 

[What 23]

I dont think it is the same...

There are many factors that are different. I'm not saying I know how it effects, but that it's plausible to have an effect on more than health. I consider some of the things like propensity for violence and other things to go along with "health", too.

I can't offer you science for it, right this second. I was just saying that there are more dimensions to consider, than what are considered.

 

[LosBlancos]

I dont think it is the same...

Why not? Slavery was over in 1865, the Holocaust was in 1945-ish, I know discrimination passed well beyond slavery but still...

BTW, the first article seemed to regard epigenetics as the study of how having a traumatic childhood can negatively impact someone later in life, that makes sense, but your great-grandparents going through war or famine should have zero effect on you.

 

[What 23]

That happened to one generation, and the effects probably missed a goof majority of Jewish people. Many Jews already lived in the U.S., and elsewhere. Slavery existed for centuries, perhaps longer in Africa considering the Arab-Islamic Slave Trade which predated the transatlantic slave trade and probably set things up for it, in good part, and before that even, I imagine. The people bought were already slaves. I'm not sure how it all worked... But surely multigenerational stressors over an entire group of people must amount to more than one single generation among many.

I know Jews have faced trouble over the centuries, but I don't think it compares to outright slavery and open discrimination/segregation, and then continued in forms, perpetuated by sickness. Sickness is stigmatised, naturally. One of the articles mentioned how people with leprosy used to be considered bad people.

This is not to say I don't still feel there are racial differences or whatever, but right now I'm just saying that this is interesting, and more should be considered than raw numbers and perceived opportunity/access.

 

[What 23]

Having zero effect (?), if you knew some about, or have read about epigenetics, you will see that it can carry over through generations. At least that's what I've seemed to have read of it.

Considering even it has only been, well, if my father had grown up as a Black man, he would have suffered as such, as he was born in 43'. I would have been born only one generation from. Id be subjected to different vibrations, multiple ways. I'm only 32. And still many Blacks live in poverty, or with so little. And they suffer from the effects of what has been. Like everyone really, but they are unique in a sense.

 

[LosBlancos]

Your first link you posted from medium, says "the new theory that could explain crime and violence in America".

The truth out link has "opinion" right in the URL, not to be pedantic but it seems pretty clear there's no conclusive proof of this.

I suppose if there was a large sample of people whose parents went through great violence and they were all adopted by nice middle-class families and still showed an effect from this then it would make sense, but using this theory of genetics when people are raised by their parents, how would you conclude it isn't just caused by the environment/nurture rather than genetics?

 

[What 23]

I don't have conclusions. I imagine it could be both.

 

[L2R]

Is there any scientific proof toward's this? I can't reconcile this idea with so many examples to the contrary. For one look at the Jewish community, they went through horrible atrocities in the 1940's which is fairly recent, yet on average have demonstrated to have the highest IQ among the American's (especially in the verbal and reasoning subtests, Asian-Americans typically score higher in the visuospatial tests).

From Wikipedia: "Americans of Jewish descent have been disproportionately successful in many fields and aspects over the years.^[12][13] The Jewish community in America has gone from a lower class minority, with most studies putting upwards of 80% as manual factory laborers prior to World War I and with the majority of fields barred to them,^[14]to the consistent richest or second richest ethnicity in America for the past 40 years in terms of average annual salary, with extremely high concentrations in academia and other fields, and today have the highest per capita income of any ethnic group in the United States, at around double the average income of non-Jewish Americans"

This does not compute. I could produce numerous other examples but this was the most poignant to me to suggest that heritiability of violence and faminine is an utter farce.

you don't measure these consequences in professional success or intelligence, but disease. the genetic markers at the basis for ancestral trauma supposedly cause things like susceptability for cancers or dispositions towards obesity or depression. it's not a foregone conclusion, but there are theories still out on the idea.

 

[Escher's Waterfall]

Why not? Slavery was over in 1865, the Holocaust was in 1945-ish, I know discrimination passed well beyond slavery but still...

By "well beyond slavery", you mean "up to and including today", right?

 

[L2R]

how would you conclude it isn't just caused by the environment/nurture rather than genetics?

relating to crime and violence, here i agree with your suggestion. our judgement and instinct are attuned to predispositions, which are programmed through exposure to such things as we grow and live. it has nothing to do with genes.

 

[LosBlancos]

By "well beyond slavery", you mean "up to and including today", right?

You do realize Black people aren't the only people to face discrimination. There's no way to quantify discrimination either, you can show me a few studies of people with "black sounding names" getting less callbacks but it's nothing concrete, or representative of endemic slavery.

Maybe police wouldn't stop black people so often if 12% of the population didn't account for over 50% of murders as per the link Bardeux posted earlier from the department of justice.

Any one feeling they are facing horrific discrimination is more than welcome to migrate elsewhere, I'm not sure why it hasn't been done and why America seems among the top destination for immigrants if it's a country full of discrimination as you claim.

 

[Escher's Waterfall]

You do realize Black people aren't the only people to face discrimination. There's no way to quantify discrimination either, you can show me a few studies of people with "black sounding names" getting less callbacks but it's nothing concrete, or representative of endemic slavery.

It's just not employment, but housing, etc. It's housing, employment, career advancement, etc. The research quite strongly points to an endemic racism that still hinders Americans of African descent.

Maybe police wouldn't stop black people so often if 12% of the population didn't account for over 50% of murders as per the link Bardeux posted earlier from the department of justice.

Your theory seems to be flawed, since black teens are arrested at 10x the rate of white teens for drug offenses, yet black teens have a lower rate of drug usage.

Any one feeling they are facing horrific discrimination is more than welcome to migrate elsewhere, I'm not sure why it hasn't been done and why America seems among the top destination for immigrants if it's a country full of discrimination as you claim.

Actually, the US is merely average for immigration. We're not among the top countries for immigration, and to say otherwise is just playing into a false myth of American exceptionalism. In addition, to claim that poor people should just up and leave seems to neglect both the problem that the poor lack money and that, at least in poor communities in the US, the poor seem to rely on their own family as a (weak) social safety net.

 

[LosBlancos]

It's just not employment, but housing, etc. It's housing, employment, career advancement, etc. The research quite strongly points to an endemic racism that still hinders Americans of African descent.

Differences in approval for home loans or being able to lease an apartment are not indicators of systemic racism. Asians have higher home loan approval than whites, the people working at banks must be bias towards Asians? Right? Career advancement, well that is precipitated on education, college degrees, ect. When only 68% of African Americans graduate high school, for the 32% that don't, would you expect much career advancement without a high school degree? It must be "endemic racism" that caused these students to drop out.

Your theory seems to be flawed, since black teens are arrested at 10x the rate of white teens for drug offenses, yet black teens have a lower rate of drug usage.

What does this have to do with my statistics I posted on murder rate? Should the rate at which drug's are used directly correlate to drug arrests? Aren't their drug dealers that don't use drugs? Isn't there the simple explanation as well that in many middle-class predominately white neighbourhoods that don't have daily murders, rapes, robberies there simply aren't police stopping as many people to search because they don't really need to.

Actually, the US is merely average for immigration. We're not among the top countries for immigration, and to say otherwise is just playing into a false myth of American exceptionalism. In addition, to claim that poor people should just up and leave seems to neglect both the problem that the poor lack money and that, at least in poor communities in the US, the poor seem to rely on their own family as a (weak) social safety net.

This is ignoring the fact that:
1) our government is actively deporting people, around 400,000 per year
2) we have large numbers of undocumented people
3) the clear fact stated in the article that more foreign born people live in the US than any other country (the author of this piece decides to use the metric of foriegn born as percent of population as their metric) as consequence it's primarily countries with smaller populations in the top

 

[Escher's Waterfall]

Differences in approval for home loans or being able to lease an apartment are not indicators of systemic racism.

And what's your explanation for large studies that show a difference in equally qualified applicants whose major distinguishing feature is race? Here's a study with 8,000 tests which shows a bias towards whites. Both a white individual, and a non-white individual would apply for the same apartment, in random order. Both would be the same gender, the same age, and claim the same income.

The sample size and the difference in results both are large enough that such an outcome is extremely unlikely to happen by chance. (The statistical analysis in that study looks remarkably well done, btw.)

Asians have higher home loan approval than whites, the people working at banks must be bias towards Asians?

If you have a study showing that all factors being otherwise equal (income, age, gender, etc) yet Asians are favored over whites, I'd be interested to see it.

Right? Career advancement, well that is precipitated on education, college degrees, ect. When only 68% of African Americans graduate high school, for the 32% that don't, would you expect much career advancement without a high school degree? It must be "endemic racism" that caused these students to drop out.

I've already cited how black teens are more likely to be arrested for drug offenses, even though they are less likely to use drugs. Black teens are also far more likely to be suspended than white teens, even though there is no evidence that black teens are committing more suspension-worthy acts. There's a lot of other factors in play as well, many of which are due to current and historical patterns of racism. Black teens, especially black teen boys, are set up to more likely fail. Hence, they do.

What does this have to do with my statistics I posted on murder rate? Should the rate at which drug's are used directly correlate to drug arrests? Aren't their drug dealers that don't use drugs? Isn't there the simple explanation as well that in many middle-class predominately white neighbourhoods that don't have daily murders, rapes, robberies there simply aren't police stopping as many people to search because they don't really need to.

Daily murders? Hell, in my city, the murder rate for the entire city was less than 20 for the entire year - a little over two murders a month, in all neighborhoods. My old neighborhood, which was predominately black, never had a murder that I recall while I lived there.

You need to get out more and actually learn about how things work.

1) our government is actively deporting people, around 400,000 per year

How does this compare and contrast to the deportations of other countries?

we have large numbers of undocumented people

About 30% of the foreign born in the US right now are illegal, and they were counted in the statistics.

the clear fact stated in the article that more foreign born people live in the US than any other country (the author of this piece decides to use the metric of foriegn born as percent of population as their metric) as consequence it's primarily countries with smaller populations in the top

We're the third most populated country on earth. Using per capita statistics is the norm, not the exception.

 

[LosBlancos]

And what's your explanation for large studies that show a difference in equally qualified applicants whose major distinguishing feature is race? Here's a study with 8,000 tests which shows a bias towards whites. Both a white individual, and a non-white individual would apply for the same apartment, in random order. Both would be the same gender, the same age, and claim the same income.

The sample size and the difference in results both are large enough that such an outcome is extremely unlikely to happen by chance. (The statistical analysis in that study looks remarkably well done, btw.)



If you have a study showing that all factors being otherwise equal (income, age, gender, etc) yet Asians are favored over whites, I'd be interested to see it.

First of all, that link was in no way related to this discussion.

Secondly, even if a study found it was more difficult to get an apartment as a Black person than a white (both with similar incomes) I don't follow where having to apply for a few more apartments would somehow lead to a snowball effect of other horrible outcomes.

According to this study (http://www.washingtonpost.com/poste...men-as-much-as-incarceration-hurts-black-men/) Black women account for about 9% of the population in Milwaukee yet represent 30% of the evictions. Surprisingly enough, many landlords likely wouldn't be too thrilled about regularly receiving late rent payments or none at all and having to go through a lengthy government process of having a tenant evicted so perhaps some would rather mitigate that risk by choosing applicants less likely to require eviction.

The free market is a beautiful thing though, I think most people even those with racist tendencies would lease an apartment to someone with proof of stable income. It's hard to imagine some people would prefer to loose money or have a property sitting there uninhabited simply because they choose not to rent to a minority.

Black teens are also far more likely to be suspended than white teens, even though there is no evidence that black teens are committing more suspension-worthy acts. There's a lot of other factors in play as well, many of which are due to current and historical patterns of racism. Black teens, especially black teen boys, are set up to more likely fail. Hence, they do.

So if you get suspended you can no longer complete high school? Where's the evidence that white students do more "suspension-worthy" acts? There's absolutely nothing stopping any Black student from going to school everyday and graduating high school, it's a matter of personal choice. It's shameful you'd blame racism on a 68% graduation race. Let me guess the high rate of out of wedlock births is due to KKK members putting afrodisiacs in Black people's food and hiding the condoms?

Daily murders? Hell, in my city, the murder rate for the entire city was less than 20 for the entire year - a little over two murders a month, in all neighborhoods. My old neighborhood, which was predominately black, never had a murder that I recall while I lived there.

That's the reality in Chicago and in New York city. I didn't realize we were discussing your city exclusively.

We're the third most populated country on earth. Using per capita statistics is the norm, not the exception.

Only when it suits your position I suppose. Look at the countries on the most popular immigrant destinations, it doesn't tell the whole picture. Andorra only has about 80,000 citizens, so add a few boats worth of migrants and it's already at a huge percentage relative to the population. Monaco is also on the top list, and it only has 35,000 people. Hard to compare percentage of foreign born people when the United States has 316 Million people.

 

[alasdairm]

Only when it suits your position I suppose. Look at the countries on the most popular immigrant destinations, it doesn't tell the whole picture. Andorra only has about 80,000 citizens, so add a few boats worth of migrants and it's already at a huge percentage relative to the population. Monaco is also on the top list, and it only has 35,000 people. Hard to compare percentage of foreign born people when the United States has 316 Million people.

are you just playing dumb deliberately now? that's why bardeaux said that per capita statistics is the norm. it allows these kinds of things to be compared where nation sizes differ...



alasdair

 

[LosBlancos]

are you just playing dumb deliberately now? that's why bardeaux said that per capita statistics is the norm. it allows these kinds of things to be compared where nation sizes differ...



alasdair

He did? Seems per capita rates is less favoured when looking at crime statistics.

Homicide rates between the two races are statistically not that wide, 52% (black) compared to 45% (white).

If you go to the link ( http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/htus8008.pdf ). You would see your buddy Bardeux choose overall percentage of homicide perpetrators which was 52.5% for African-Americans and 45.3% for Whites, as it was much more favourable than the rates (per capita) which stand at 4.5 per 100,000 for Whites and 34.4 per 100,000 for African-Americans. This was all on page one of this thread. I suppose whichever metric supports the agenda is the preferred choice...

 

[alasdairm]

lies, damned lies and...

alasdair

 

[LosBlancos]

lies, damned lies and...

alasdair

What exactly did I lie about?

I know sometimes the truth is a hard pill to swallow.