The Ferguson Thread: Part II

[Bardeaux]

I don't see institutional racism being mentioned at all, but it was a wholly unjust killing where no charges were brought against the police.

I mentioned it. This is what the current protests and controversy pertains to, hence there was no outrage from the politicians or majority group as there is no disproportionate state violence against whites vs blacks.

How would you explain the disproportionate media coverage, no comment from Obama or Holder and no dialogue on the issue following the Gilbert Collar case ?

see: above

 

[LosBlancos]

I mentioned it. This is what the current protests and controversy pertains to, hence there was no outrage from the politicians or majority group as there is no disproportionate state violence against whites vs blacks.

So disproportionate state violence in and of itself is unjust to you? Despite their being disproportionate levels of crime and violence between the two groups. To me it makes sense for state violence to commensurate fairly directly with the civilian violence of a particular population.

Should there be only proportional amounts of state violence for each group in the population? Exact proportions of state violence to each group or is there some acceptable degree of variance ?

 

[Bardeaux]

So disproportionate state violence in and of itself is unjust to you?

Yes.

Despite their being disproportionate levels of crime and violence between the two groups. To me it makes sense for state violence to commensurate fairly directly with the civilian violence of a particular population.

There is quite a disparity between the rates of violence perpetrated by each ethnicity and the use of lethal force and imprisonment as a result. Homicide rates between the two races are statistically not that wide, 52% (black) compared to 45% (white). Compare this to the use of deadly force in the field, blacks are around three times more likely than whites to be killed by police even after factoring in racial demographics.

If we look into prison population statistics we can find similar results.

Should there be only proportional amounts of state violence for each group in the population? Exact proportions of state violence to each group or is there some acceptable degree of variance ?

I think state violence across the board needs to be curbed.

 

[LosBlancos]

Yes.



There is quite a disparity between the rates of violence perpetrated by each ethnicity and the use of lethal force and imprisonment as a result. Homicide rates between the two races are statistically not that wide, 52% (black) compared to 45% (white). Compare this to the use of deadly force in the field, blacks are around 30% more likely than whites to be killed by police even after factoring in racial demographics.

If we look into prison population statistics we can find similar results.



I think state violence across the board needs to be curbed.

Can you cite where you got those rates from? Are those per capita rates or for the overall population? 7 percent difference is insignificant ?

 

[Bardeaux]

Can you cite where you got those rates from? Are those per capita rates or for the overall population?

US Department of Justice

7 percent difference is insignificant ?

Yes, when there's a 300 percent difference in who gets shot by police as a result.

 

[LosBlancos]

US Department of Justice



Yes, when there's a 300 percent difference in who gets shot by police as a result.

Why are you being so disingenuous when it comes to the data? If you look at the very website you linked me to:

You would see the rate at which Blacks perpetuate homicide is 34.4 per 100k people and the rate whites perpetuate homicide is 4.5 per 100k people.

I suppose it's easier to ignore that even with 82.9% of the population being white (according to the department of justice) and 12.6% being black, the raw frequency of homicides (with no regard to population size) was still higher for blacks.

 

[Bardeaux]

Why are you being so disingenuous when it comes to the data? If you look at the very website you linked me to:

The very same image has the exact same information I posted under total offenses. I never said it was per 100k people. This doesn't negate the fact that three times as many black citizens are killed by police than whites in total, while there is a margin of offenses committed of 7% in total. In addition, as you said, ~12% of the population is black and they are 300% more likely to be killed by a police officer than the 82% white majority even though whites are responsible for nearly the same rate of homicide in total.

 

[LosBlancos]

The very same image has the exact same information I posted under total offenses. I never said it was per 100k people. This doesn't negate the fact that three times as many black citizens are killed by police than whites in total, while there is a margin of offenses committed of 7% in total. In addition, as you said, ~12% of the population is black and they are 300% more likely to be killed by a police officer than the 82% white majority even though whites are responsible for nearly the same rate of homicide in total.

Homicide rates between the two races are statistically not that wide, 52% (black) compared to 45% (white). Compare this to the use of deadly force in the field, blacks are around three times more likely than whites to be killed by police even after factoring in racial demographics.

If we look into prison population statistics we can find similar results.



I think state violence across the board needs to be curbed.

See that right side of the chart, that's the side of the rate (look it even has a nice label that says so) Statistically, the rate is vastly different.

 

[LosBlancos]

Want to compare it all in total, go ahead. (this is from your link btw): So despite commiting less total murders, whites are killed by police more often than black people. Thanks for the sources Bardo!

Over the span of more than a decade, 2,151 whites died by being shot by police compared to 1,130 blacks.

P.S. a rate is a ratio between two measurements with different units.^[1] If the unit or quantity in respect of which something is changing is not specified, usually the rate is per unit time.

percentage is a number or ratio expressed as a fraction of 100. It is often denoted using the percent sign, "%", or the abbreviation "pct."

 

[Bardeaux]

Over the span of more than a decade, 2,151 whites died by being shot by police compared to 1,130 blacks.

Right, which means a group that makes up 12% of a total population made up for nearly 30% of all police killings (along with the "other" category in the report).

I don't see how this helps.

 

[nuttynutskin]

I've already said I own one myself and would use it if necessary. There's a difference between someone pointing a gun at you and someone making threatening gestures. If I was also carrying mace, a taser, a baton etc I would try to subdue an apparently unarmed but belligerent person before deciding to empty my clip into him at rapid fire.

I never said there's no use for the other types of weapons/tools police have in certain situations, but when you have an aggressive subject deciding to charge you from a close distance they aren't necessarily good options. It all depends on the situation, but just because a subject is not armed does not mean they are exempt from the use of lethal force.

I thought police were trained professionals who are supposed to be prepared to handle these kinds of situations. Any guy on the street can wear a badge and shoot whoever looks threatening.

Yes, because cops are out mowing down people for just looking threatening but are minding their own business. You're just being silly now.

 

[LosBlancos]

Right, which means a group that makes up 12% of a total population made up for nearly 30% of all police killings (along with the "other" category in the report).

When 12% of the total population accounts for 52% of the murders, it's hardly baffling that same population would have a high rate of violent encounters with police.

To remind you again though, of your earlier claim:

\This doesn't negate the fact that three times as many black citizens are killed by police than whites in total.

 

[Escher's Waterfall]

I don't believe it's a cop's job to put a violent aggressor's life above their own.

Isn't that exactly a cop's job? They are tasked with dealing with potentially violent people every day. Your statement is like saying that it isn't a firefighter's job to deal with any situation where they may get burned.

 

[nuttynutskin]

You're missing my point entirely. Of course cops know that their job is dangerous and that they're potentially risking their lives, but it's not their job to give an aggressor the upper hand. Is that better? From what I gather if it were up to Bardeaux fist-fighting would be a suitable means for a cop to deal with someone trying to harm them or kill them. This is simply not the case. Like I've said over and over, just because someone isn't armed doesn't mean shit as far as if lethal force is warranted. If I was carrying and someone comes at me aggressively I'm not mandated to let them get to me and get into a mma match with them hoping they don't overpower me and take my gun away. I can shoot them dead. Some obviously don't like that fact, but at least where I live the law would be on my side.

In the United States, stand-your-ground law states that an individual has no duty to retreat from any place they have lawful right to be and may use any level of force, including lethal, if they reasonably believe they face an imminent and immediate threat of serious bodily harm or death.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand-your-ground_law

 

[Escher's Waterfall]

I'm not seeing it.

Compare and contrast a soldier and a cop. A soldier sees a guy that isn't of his team, holding what appears to be a weapon, looking aggressive. The soldier will either shoot him or avoid him.

But for a cop, we require more. A cop should, at the bare minimum announce their presence and demand that the weapon be dropped.

 

[nuttynutskin]

A cop should, at the bare minimum announce their presence and demand that the weapon be dropped.

As far as I know they do that, but if an aggressive suspect is charging towards them lethal force is permissible. I mean what are they supposed to do, just stand their and get attacked or try to run away? I swear if it were up to some people cops would just runaway from criminals and danger.

 

[Escher's Waterfall]

As far as I know they do that, but if an aggressive suspect is charging towards them lethal force is permissible. I mean what are they supposed to do, just stand their and get attacked or try to run away? I swear if it were up to some people cops would just runaway from criminals and danger.

They need to analyze the situation and only use deadly force if necessary. They are professionals, they should be held to a higher standard when it comes to the killing other people.

 

[What 23]

I haven't heard this along with any reasoning for why Blacks may do worse in many areas, even when adjusting for current socioeconomics. This is not meant as a racist argument. Its something I've brought up in the past. Epigenetics.

If poverty and abuse over time can cause changes in the way genes are expressed, it would stand that it is very possible that for the generations Blacks were enslaved and restricted to lower levels, and discriminated against, that this could effect their behavior here. It could increase cortisol (something measured as higher in African Americans), and other things.

Anyways, I just feel that this should be considered when people quote statistics. Because it is true that Blacks don't test as well on average- this is not racist, its reality. And it is true that they disproportionately commit more violent crime.

Anyways I just haven't seen anyone, even on the liberal opposition use this in rational arguments (cant really expect rationality from them however in many cases). Here is a link, and although it doesn't mention anything other than health effects, I do believe it is possible that it could, along with continued socioeconomic perpetuation, play into things, and those with each other.

They're damaged, largely, to put it one way. Some rise above.

This is not meant to explain it all. Just an idea that "hey this seems to do something... Why couldn't it also do this?".

Anyways, I just wanted to share. I don't think I deserve to be attacked for it, as this post was more in their defense, or in defense of explanation/understanding.

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4094226

The Epigenetics of Being Black and Feeling Blue: Understanding African American Vulnerability to Disease

 

[What 23]

https://medium.com/matter/the-new-t...in-crime-and-violence-in-america-945462826399

The New Theory That Could Explain Crime and Violence in America

http://cureviolence.org/post/article-explores-whether-the-roots-of-crime-lie-within-our-biology/

"The results of epigenetics should force a broader rethinking of violence. If we look at it this way, we’re able to take it out of the realm of morality. We used to think of people with leprosy as bad people because we didn’t understand what was happening. Epigenetic damage is invisible, and neuronal circuits are invisible — so until we start to talk about violence as science we’re still in the Middle Ages.”

 

[What 23]

http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/25686-the-ferguson-effect-on-our-great-grandchildren

The Ferguson Effect on Our Great-Grandchildren

Excerpt: "...Because of epigenetics, whenever there's war, violence, poverty, famine or just about any other stressful situation, not only are our bodies changing, but those of future generations will, too.

That's why it's so important that we do everything possible to protect future generations by making the world work well today.

For example, we must confront America's racism and poverty epidemics head-on and start building a larger and more inclusive middle class, so that communities like Ferguson can leave the stress of poverty behind.

At the same time, we need to be creating a safer world, free of major stressors like wars, violence, and militarized police occupations.

Basically, we need to be working towards a more nurturing society..."