The Ferguson thread / additional race discussion

[What 23]

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289614000312

The relationship between Microcephalin, ASPM and intelligence: A reconsideration
Michael A. Woodley, Heiner Rindermann, Edward Bell, James Stratford, Davide Piffer(...)

Abstract
Despite the fact that the recently evolved Microcephalin and the related Abnormal Spindle-like Microcaphaly Associated (ASPM) alleles do not appear to be associated with IQ at the individual differences level, the frequencies of Microcephalin have been found to correlate strongly with IQ at the cross-country level. In this study, the association between these two alleles and intelligence is examined using a sample of 59 populations. A bivariate correlation between Microcephalin and population average IQ of r = .790 (p ≤ .01) was found, and a multiple regression analysis in which the Human Development Index, Disability Adjusted Life Years (DALY) lost due to Infectious diseases, DALY Nutritional deficiencies, and Würm glaciation temperature means were included revealed that Microcephalin remained a good predictor of IQ. Path analysis, with both direct and indirect paths from Microcephalin to intelligence, showed good model fit. These multivariate analyses revealed strong and robust associations between DALYs and Microcephalin, indicating that the former partially mediates the association between the latter and IQ. A second smaller correlational analysis involving ten country-level estimates of the frequencies of these two alleles collected from the 1000 genomes database replicated this pattern of results. To account for the findings of this study, we review evidence that these alleles are expressed in the immune system. Microcephalin is strongly associated with DNA repair, which indicates a special role for this allele in the intrinsic anti-viral immune response. Enhanced immune functioning may have advantaged both hunter–gatherer and agrarian societies coping with the heightened disease burden that resulted from population growth and exposure to zoonotic diseases, making it more likely that such growth and concomitant increases in intelligence could occur.

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[ebola?]

It's funny about the only responses people have for me are of this tone. You have no ammo.

No.
It's honestly the type of reply your repeated straw-men (ie, your attempts to mischaracterize your opposition) garner, and not unfairly so. I also tend to doubt the intentions of people who post in flurries of this sort.

ebola

 

[Bardeaux]

It's funny about the only responses people have for me are of this tone. You have no ammo.

Or you're just an easy target. As for your other enlightening musings:

“Once Sharpton’s on board, he plays the race card all the way through,” said a source who has worked with the Harlem preacher. “He just keeps asking for more and more money.”

http://nypost.com/2015/01/04/how-sharpton-gets-paid-to-not-cry-racism-at-corporations/

no shit. Fair enough?

Regarding your "science" stuff, what's the point?

 

[What 23]

As for the interruptors, I find them highly annoying. I shake my head. I don't want to live with these types. I don't want them around. Not with.

As for the "science" as you quote it, there is enough evidence that more separates us than "skin tone" and facial features.

The funny thing is I'm open to the possibility of being wrong about this, or somehow misinterpretting. Most of you do not seem open to my ideas, or what I promote, at all. If one can provide different interpretations for this science, I'd be interested to see it. Sincerely interested. No sarcasm at all.

At the least: The newer alleles referenced correlate with among populations higher scores on testing for intelligence. The supposed time they came about in history coincides roughly with the rise of complex civilizations, written languages, agriculture, art, etc, also in these populations. Again... I'm very open to interpretations as to what is happening.

 

[Bardeaux]

As for the interruptors, I find them highly annoying. I shake my head.

Don't worry, we all have those

As for the "science" as you quote it without reason (you just assume because it doesn't conform to your leftist paradigm that it can't be valid; you belong to a different religion that won't accept my God or even engage), there is enough evidence that more separates us than "skin tone" and facial features.

There is also ample evidence that there is more genetic diversity within a single ethnic group than when compared to another or with humanity as a whole.

The funny thing is I'm open to the possibility of being wrong about this, or somehow misinterpretting. None of you seem open to my ideas, or what I promote, at all. If one can provide different interpretations for this science, I'd be interested to see it. Sincerely interested. No sarcasm at all.

Because you're (to the best of my knowledge), wrong.

For instance, a quote from the meme you posted, about the single greatest difference in modern human genetic variation is between sub-Saharan Africans and non sub_Saharan Africans is entirely backwards. The greatest volume of genetic variation belongs to groups within sub-Saharan Africa within itself. This is well known and very well documented. Hence, we don't take your scientific dribble seriously.

The newer variants of alleles referenced correlate with among populations higher scores on testing for intelligence. The supposed time they came about in history coincides roughly with the rise of complex civilizations, written languages, agriculture, art, etc, also in these populations. Again... I'm very open to interpretations as to what is happening.

Where do you suppose all these things began? Sweden?

 

[What 23]

As for the genetic variation wording in the "meme", I also had a hit of "what" on that. I posted it because he makes some interesting observations otherwise. Of course you will hinge on one thing though to invalidate the entire thing. Once again, weak sauce. I imagine the guy is a layman, or confused his words.

But there is one major thing that separates groups, and that is frequency. And these genes, which occur almost nil in frequency in sub-Saharan Africans, and also in their timing of occurrence correlate roughly with the supposed rise of complex civilizations, including with them agriculture, art, written language...

You simply believe I'm wrong but you really don't have the guts (I doubt they're there, but am open if you gottem') to prove it, at all. Believing I'm anything other than "wrong" here would basically be like a Christian believing that Jesus was not the Son of God, for you. Your religion requires you to believe I'm wrong. Am I wrong?

I'm not sure. Maybe Turkey. Maybe East, or slightly further North-East Africa after initial populations split (this is, where the variant or variants began... Though the ASPM variant probably closer to Turkey- I don't have the numbers in front if me).

 

[Bardeaux]

As for the genetic variation wording in the "meme", I also had a hit of "what" on that. I posted it because he makes some interesting observations otherwise. Of course you will hinge on one thing though to invalidate the entire thing. Once again, weak sauce.

This is how the idiom "for instance" is designed to function. Rather than running down every bullet you've copy/pasted from a website I chose one. Shall I choose another? I'm not going to sit here and write a 50k word response for you. Do you own homework.

You simply believe I'm wrong but you really don't have the guts to prove it, at all.

Again
Do
Your

Own
Homework



There's enough material there to keep you busy all day. It;s your turn to put in some effort and read.

 

[What 23]

I see you've got nothing. Not even a highlight. I hate to say it, but, whatever dude.

Anyways, my main concern here (that you choose to ignore completely in favor of redirecting) was in fact the correlation of these alleles, and frequency of them, with traits, in populations. I'm not even arguing with you otherwise right now. I stand by that populations have different frequencies of types of genes (that isn't quite covered in the whole "not enough 'variation'" argument), such as the example I laid down much earlier in this thread about how the Danes have the highest frequency of a gene that correlates strongly with life satisfaction, and that those related to the Danes, depending on how related, carry this gene at correlative frequency, and also report a somewhat sliding scale of life satisfaction, accordingly. Of course that was shot down (attempted with various ad hominems for a good majority of responses) as well.

And you ask me to read 170 pages. Maybe later. I asked you to read the equivalent of maybe 2 (for starters, with some focus).

Sorry to offend your religion, bro.

 

[Bardeaux]

I see you've got nothing. Not even a highlight. I hate to say it, but, whatever dude.....

And you ask me to read 170 pages. Maybe later.

Later indeed.

 

[What 23]

The same predictable tactic. Ignore. Redirect attention elsewhere and hope nobody notices.

 

[Bardeaux]

If you're not going to read the 170 pages of "proof I don't have the guts to post", then we're done here. What do you want from me?

I've addressed what's wrong with your argument. You've rejected it. I'm not playing any more games with you.

 

[Escher's Waterfall]

The funny thing is I'm open to the possibility of being wrong about this, or somehow misinterpretting. Most of you do not seem open to my ideas, or what I promote, at all. If one can provide different interpretations for this science, I'd be interested to see it. Sincerely interested. No sarcasm at all.

Flynn effect. 'Nuff said.

 

[What 23]

Hilarious.

I guess the Flynn effect could account for something, but even still, sub-Saharan Africans from my knowledge test the lowest. To begin. And compared to far distant populations such as Native Americans.

Bard- I didn't even argue about the diversity thing. I knew that within Africa there is more genetic diversity. And yes, this statement is wrong, that that guy made. It seems to be all you're hinging on- again simply ignoring my main focus in favor of something you can "win" with (and something I've already agreed with you on).

Like I said I may approach that later.

Tell me, does it have anything to do with my main focus? Did I even try to argue what you said about genetic variation? No. I admitted that I was, or at least wrote it down- maybe I didn't say, that I may have been irresponsible for linking to the one guy's blog, knowing that what he said didn't sound right.

Does it have anything to do really with what I was saying, dear Bard? NO. A search of that paper that you linked to reveals absolutely no mention of ASPM or Microcephalin genes, which were mains of my focus.

If I did not argue with you, why in the fuck do you continue, other than to keep the focus elsewhere?

Again, I'll look at it later. It might be an interesting read. I'm not exactly an idle person outside of Bluelight or my attempt to prove we are not a grey-brown mass.

 

[Engage]

Nuff said. <---Nuff said.

 

[L2R]

What 23, firstly you are completely wrong in your assumptions about race having any direct affect on behaviour.

but let's imagine for a second that you were right. let's humour that fiction for only a moment.

do you want to be a part of a solution or contribute to making the problem worse? behavioural concerns are alleviated not through vilification and threat of punishment, but through assistance, guidance, respect and care. by inessantly pointing the finger and judging, which of these are you doing?

 

[What 23]

On the assuming I'm right part, you may have a point (and it is one reason I fight with or disagree with most 'racists' I come across- That they may make it worse, in their certain tactics or behaviors), but I think you're wrong on the other part. On an individual level, we may not have the resolution to see, but 'races' are different. And there is enough data to at the very least keep the door open that genes and their frequencies may play a role in... "Behavior". There is definitely not enough to close the book on it, which is the religion of 'the left', or liberals (I know- I don't mean to conflate) on this subject, seemingly.

I feel more kinship with non sub-Saharan populations.

 

[L2R]

On the assuming I'm right part, you may have a point (and it is one reason I fight with or disagree with most 'racists' I come across- That they may make it worse, in their certain tactics or behaviors), but I think you're wrong on the other part. On an individual level, we may not have the resolution to see, but 'races' are different. And there is enough data to at the very least keep the door open that genes and their frequencies may play a role in... "Behavior". There is definitely not enough to close the book on it, which is the religion of 'the left', or liberals (I know- I don't mean to conflate) on this subject, seemingly.

I feel more kinship with non sub-Saharan populations.

you didn't answer the question

 

[Bardeaux]

Bard- I didn't even argue about the diversity thing. I knew that within Africa there is more genetic diversity. And yes, this statement is wrong, that that guy made. It seems to be all you're hinging on- again simply ignoring my main focus in favor of something you can "win" with (and something I've already agreed with you on).

I'm focusing on this because if he can get something so fundamentally understood and recognized absolutely wrong, how much credibility can we possibly entrust in him on anything else the man has to say?

It's like someone saying the sun revolves around the earth. Let's listen to his theories on relativity. Nevertheless, I'll humor you.

Tell me, does it have anything to do with my main focus?

Yes. See: above.

Does it have anything to do really with what I was saying, dear Bard? NO. A search of that document reveals absolutely no mention of ASPM or Microcephalin genes, which were of my focus.

With the other gene, ASPM, a new allele emerged some time between 14,100 and 500 years ago, the researchers favoring a mid-way date of 5,800 years. The allele has attained a frequency of about 50 percent in populations of the Middle East and Europe, is less common in East Asia, and found at low frequency in some sub-Saharan Africa peoples.
...

Meaning what exactly? What's the point?

Testing the IQ of those with and without new ASPM allele has shown no difference in average IQ, providing no evidence to support the notion that the gene increases intelligence

source

We found no evidence that the selected alleles were associated with increases or decreases in brain volume. This result suggests that the selective pressure on these genes may be related to subtle neurobiological effects or to their expression outside the brain.

source

Five independent samples were used, totaling 2393 subjects, including both family-based and population-based datasets. Our overall findings do not support a detectable association between the recent adaptive evolution of either ASPM or Microcephalin and changes in IQ.

source


Am I getting any closer to your argument?

Next "scientific racist" theory plz.

 

[What 23]

You're at least being respectable and fair. Thank you. I'll look into these.

Edit: Just saw your edit. Just because some draw different conclusions doesn't really mean much (for it to be absolutely concluded).

Here are highlights of a study reconsidering...

The relationship between Microcephalin, ASPM and intelligence: A reconsideration

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289614000312

Though, I see some possible error there...

Maybe it's all just coincidence. Maybe. There are still many other things, and I guess Blacks (West African) just win more races because they try harder, and Whites more in the water, because they have access to better pools or something. Or they try harder.

 

[Bardeaux]

I'm not paying $40 to read the "results" page of this study. If you have, feel free to post them.

Meanwhile, according to Oxford...

Five independent samples were used, totaling 2393 subjects, including both family-based and population-based datasets. Our overall findings do not support a detectable association between the recent adaptive evolution of either ASPM or Microcephalin and changes in IQ.