The Ferguson thread / additional race discussion

[Bardeaux]

'He pulled up ahead of them. And then he got a call-in that there was a strong-arm robbery. And, they gave a description,' said the friend in an interview with Josie on The Dana Show.

'And, he’s looking at them and they got something in their hands and it looks like it could be what, you know those cigars or whatever. So he goes in reverse back to them.
'Tries to get out of his car. They slam his door shut violently. I think he said Michael did. And, then he opened the car again. He tried to get out. He stands up.

'And then Michael just bum-rushes him and shoves him back into his car. Punches him in the face and them Darren grabs for his gun. Michael grabbed for the gun. At one point he got the gun entirely turned against his hip.

'And he shoves it away. And the gun goes off.

'Well, then Michael takes off and gets to be about 35 feet away. And, Darren’s first protocol is to pursue. So, he stands up and yells, 'Freeze!# Michael and his friend turn around.
'And Michael taunts him… And then all the sudden he just started bumrushing him. He just started coming at him full speed.

'And, so he just started shooting. And, he just kept coming. And, so he really thinks he was on something.'

Which part was inaccurate?

 

[What 23]

This source is entirely different.



"Begins at 6:28/6:29 of video

Man 1 ''How’d he get from there to there?'

Eyewitness: 'Because he ran, the police was still in the truck – cause he was like over the truck'

Eyewitness: 'But him and the police was both in the truck, then he ran – the police got out and ran after him'

Eyewitness: 'Then the next thing I know he doubled back toward him cus - the police had his gun drawn already on him'

Man 1: 'Oh, the police got his gun'

Eyewitness:' The police kept dumpin on him, and I’m thinking the police kept missing – he like – be like – but he kept coming toward him(crosstalk)'

Eyewitness: 'Police fired shots – the next thing I know – the police was missing'

Man 1: 'The Police?'

Eyewitness: 'The Police shot him'

Man 1: 'Police?'

Eyewitness: 'The next thing I know … I’m thinking … the dude started running … then something about he took it from him'"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...s-teen-surrendered-Officer-Darren-Wilson.html

 

[Bardeaux]

^It's a bit of a leap to turn this into the accusation that Brown charged the officer. Even the testimonies that suggest Brown had surrendered have acknowledged that he turned to face the officer, and that the cop kept approaching Brown, rather than Brown approaching the officer.

NSFW:

I would post the interview with Brown's friend that was with him, but this is obviously a biased source.

 

[What 23]

Cop-cars need omnidirectional cameras on top, or at least dash cams, and cops need to wear cameras.

 

[bit_pattern]

These are unarmed, innocent civilians, what23.

Have you know no empathy for your fellow countrymen? This apologist approach to an unarmed man being killed in the street is disturbing. Really, it is.

Of course not - they're black. LutWut23's ideas about white nationalism shouldn't come as any surprise to anyone here.

 

[bit_pattern]

But among them some were, unfortunately for them.

They may have a right to assemble peacefully, but not to block streets, as has happened. And not to disrupt things. I doubt they were fired upon with gas without certain provocation.

You would have made a great Royalist during the American Revolution

 

[What 23]

If he was approaching him after assaulting him, I'm not going to let empathy get in the way.

Frankly, although people say it is unrelated, the robbery happened 10 minutes before. I saw the disrespect Brown treated that man with in the video, and I don't feel at this point he was much of a loss to the world. So no, my empathy isn't going to take much precedence here.

 

[Droppersneck]

Don't they execute murderers in Missouri?
Arguably that's not "ruining his life" - its just taking away the privilege of having a life at all.
Or whatever the pro-capital punishment 'argument' is.

Wat? this event is already ruining his life.

Understatement. The so-called libertarians here are a complete fucking joke. The police response after the fact is EXACTLY the kind of big government overkill that people like Droppers claim they keep guns to prevent.

And to say it isn't about race is an even bigger load of cod shit. If the police responded to, say, Cliven Bundy the glibertarians would be going ape-shit right now. But, because it's happening to black communities they're all like - in the immortal words of NWA - "just another nigga dead"

Cliven Bundy was a moron, but at least he didnt go rob a store and then allegedly attempt to assault a police officer. Not a valid comparison.

I'm not saying it's not a racial issue. I'm saying it's not a racial issue on the side of the police. Had a black officer done the shooting, we would be seeing the same outrage. Although, the Ferguson PD isn't really representative of the racial demographics of Ferguson. The racial aspect of this story is that this isn't anything new. Despite the armed white guys intimidating small towns, despite the Bundy ranch situation, despite episodes like the one in the video I posted, despite rampage shootings perpetrated by white people, blacks (armed or not) are disproportionately killed by police than their white counterparts. It happens every day across the US. Once in awhile a story is going to break through and draw much attention to the issue.

Media coverage and public reaction are two steps of the social problem process in any case, this being no different. Sometimes the media over reacts, while most of the time it under-reacts regarding any given issue. The same applies to public reaction. If this sort of reaction were to happen every time something like this happened there would be major systemic conflict at every level of our society.



I'm also working in the legislature though.

Changing the michigan legislature one latte at a time. I am proud of you Bardo!

I just love how all of you consider a violent robbery and alleged assault on a police officer to not enter the equation in any way!

 

[bit_pattern]

You wouldn't be much loss to the world either.

 

[bit_pattern]

Cliven Bundy was a moron, but at least he didnt go rob a store

No. He robbed the state over a period of years (decades?) for sums greater by orders of magnitudes than the ALLEGED shoplifting incident you refer to.

 

[spacejunk]

Wat? this event is already ruining his life.

My heart goes out to the killer, it really does.
It goes out to you as well, droppers, for offering such a mediocre trolling effort.
You really must try harder - it will ruin your life otherwise.

 

[What 23]

I just love how all of you consider a violent robbery and alleged assault on a police officer to not enter the equation in any way!

Notice how this will just be ignored.

 

[bit_pattern]

Wat? this event is already ruining his life.

Not as bad as it ruined Brown's life 8)

 

[What 23]

bit pattern is a looter.

 

[bit_pattern]

Notice how this will just be ignored.

The alleged "violent robbery" does not enter the equation because even the police acknowledge the killer was not aware of the alleged robbery at the time the victim was killed. The alleged assault is contested - either way, assault does not justify deadly force.

bit pattern is a looter.

Cool story, bro. How long did it take you to think up that zinger?

 

[bit_pattern]

Fuck it must suck to be an American. To live in a state of fear and violence where people actually think it's normal that a person risk death just for objecting to the instructions of a police officer. Or to think that it's normal for the police to react to social disruptions with military-style weapons and tactics. What sort of a sad existence must you people live? I actually feel sorry for the apologists here. Laughingly they are the same numpties that think freedom = gun ownership. You will never know what it's like to live in REAL freedom - i.e. the freedom to go about your business without the fear of being murdered, either by your fellow civilian or a paramilitary "police" force that actually act like an occupying army. The one thing I get out of frequenting this forum is the sense that as fucked up as shit gets in my society, it's nothing on the dysfunction and horror that you flogs celebrate and think is reflective of the "best" or the "freest" country on earth. It just reminds me of how lucky I am to live in a country that is ACTUALLY free (at least in comparison). Ironically enough, it's the patriotism of the numpties that hold in such contempt actually increases my own sense of patriotism. Thank fuck I don't live the pathetic existence of the apologists. THANKS AMERICA! GOD BLESS! :D

 

[What 23]

It does enter the equation because

1. It happened just prior. It shows him assaulting a man. It says he is perfectly capable.

2. You are going off of old news. Allegedly, Wilson didn't know at first/this was not why he approached Brown, but then he connected it when he saw cigars.

This could bring escalation to this situation. And, not wanting involvement with police could spark even more defiance, having just committed a robbery/assault, even if Wilson didn't know. What mindstate was Brown in?

------------

You keep saying allegedly, when it has been determined that he did rob and assault that man. Johnson's lawyer has admitted it.

There is no such thing as freedom. Only on levels.

When the Caliphate reaches your land, you'll wish you had our "freedom", and paramilitary police force. Hypothetically. You're blind. So am I. But I know it.

 

[drug_mentor]

Why is this? People listen to music that resonates with them, right? If it wasn't them doing the raping murdering and robbing and disrespecting others, they probably had it done to them by their community, right?

I don't think that liking a style of music that often talks about violence or crime means that the idea of being a criminal resonates with someone, one explanation might be (I am sure there are many more) that many people find a criminal counter culture quite fascinating for whatever reason. I am one of those people, I have watched endless documentaries on gangs, prison, organised crime, serial killers etc. I also happen to be a fan of rap. I am not a violent person, when I was younger I guess I used to get into a few scraps but that was a long time ago. I don't react to situations I don't like with violence and I don't fantasize about committing violent acts on others.

I've known a lot of people, too. My friend tells me every time I see him that he wants to commit suicide, yet he's still here, years and years later. It doesn't mean he won't commit suicide. But maybe he won't. I also touch on this, about your friends, above. They hardly represent a statistical sample.

Yes, not everybody who talks about something goes through with it, I don't see what that has to do with rap. When your friend talks about wanting to kill himself that is an expression of his desire to kill himself, as I pointed out in my last post, you cannot take lyrics from an artistic form of expression as a literal expression of intent or desire, the two situations are not comparable.

My friends might not be statistically relevant but I would be willing to bet if there were any scientific grounds to associate rap music with a dramatically increased proclivity for crime and violence it would of been in the news by now, and you would of dragged it into this thread in a further attempt to smear this kids image.

I am pressed to find nearly as much in rock, and it is usually done more artfully, or seemingly in a more benign way, than I often seem to see in rap.

Who are you to decide what is more artful? Just because you have a preference does not make it more valid than anybody else'es preference. Even if one were to conclude the violent references in rock were more "benign" than in rap (how one would go about determining this, I have no idea...) what does that prove? By saying "more benign" it is implied that it is not entirely benign in rock music, why would some non benign violent references be okay, but less benign violent references not be okay? You are drawing a completely arbitrary line to suit your argument.

I should also point out here that the other style of music I referenced was not rock, it was heavy metal, I am by no means saying that all heavy metal songs have violent references but to deny that a lot do would be ludicrous.

With any of the above, which I admit may be a weak argument that I have attempted, I am not saying correlation equals causation, but there is likely a correlation, and the music might be representative of something, at least. Plenty of blacks don't listen to that kind of music, too. And they might be less likely to engage in their own life these things. I'd bet on it.

If you admit that your argument is weak, why make it in the first place? It seems like you are on a mission to prove this murder victim was a bad guy who deserved it, I just can't understand why.

Maybe I should have avoided this, because it's similar to how people try to blame violent movies and videogames when people murdered others. One difference is that in videogames you often play some hero, and movies often have similar themes. Someone interested in just nasty shit constantly might be more likely to be nasty.

Ever heard of the Grand Theft Auto game series? Manhunt? Thrill kill? Plenty of games put the user in the shoes of a criminal, while not all rap music glorifies crime.

Not true. There are many popular rappers that don't glorify crime in their rhymes. One of my favorite rappers is Lacrae. He is an extremely successful Christian rapper, many professional sports athletes and all kinds of people listen to him. He's been mainstream for some time now. Just one example of a famed rapper proving you can make good ryhmes with clean lyrics.

I never said there were no rappers who don't glorify crime, I said that as a young African American male trying to break into the rap scene it would be next to impossible to make it while avoiding the topics of crime and murder. There are a number of well known songs and artists who do the opposite of glorify crime and murder, but they are still generally common themes throughout their music. Maybe it is just the rap I listen to (which has been a lot over the years) but a great deal of it does tend to glamorize a criminal lifestyle, obviously there are exceptions, but if you look at mainstream rap as a whole I think more gangsta rap CD's are selling than Christian rap CD's, I could be wrong though.

I stand by the statement that a young, undiscovered African American male living in a relatively impoverished area of the United States trying to break into the mainstream rap scene would have a hard job without crime and killing being common themes throughout their music. I also think, generally speaking, they would probably have a better chance at success if they were talking up the criminal lifestyle, as opposed to talking it down.

In regards to this shooting, how could it possibly be justified to shoot someone multiple times in the head? After the first head shot the threat was surely neutralized.

I assume cops in the US have tazers, batons and pepper spray too, given the fact that the shooting victim was unarmed, why did the Officer need to fire any shots at all?

 

[What 23]

He had assaulted the officer. He had allegedly gone for his weapon. At least according to the officer's account, at one point the weapon was, if I heard this correctly, pointed into his hip. This was prior to it going off, during a struggle.

I'm not sure why he didn't decide to switch to a non lethal weapon when he began to pursue. Maybe he himself was scared at that point, having been allegedly assaulted by a 300 lb, 6 foot 4 man. People have said it was Wilson who was approaching Brown, which seems about right, but according to Wilson's account, he had told Brown to freeze as he pursued, and Brown didn't take him seriously, and taunted Wilson... "You're not going to shoot me". He turned around and began to rush Wilson.

I don't know, but I might assume it is not protocol to put a man's life, one who just assaulted you, above your own. Cops never know what the person is going to have on them or what they can do. I try to always put them at ease when I am pulled over, by letting them see my hands right away. They always approach with their hands over their weapon. I think using a taser or other non lethal weapon requires more knowledge of the situation. He didn't have full knowledge of this situation. He had just been assaulted, unless he decided to beat himself when nobody was looking or it happened some other way/accidentally. When Brown began to rush him, after what had happened, he was afraid for his safety... Maybe his life, if his story is true.

I would have to say that best case, it doesn't really sound like either party was doing everything they could to avoid this. But people are so hell bent on hanging the cop, and they have no real idea what happened. They just ignore what doesn't support that Brown wasn't tempting this. A lot of human error/ignorance. And I feel he deserves a fair shake.

It's too bad we don't have phasers yet.

Grand Theft Auto makes my chest hurt. Or it did when I was more in touch with my soul, certainly. All of it did.

Yes, something in you resonates. Something in them resonates.

 

[Bardeaux]

I just love how all of you consider a violent robbery and alleged assault on a police officer to not enter the equation in any way!

This is because it's not part of the equation. The officer had no idea Brown had stolen cigars. The assault, if true, sure I can understand a weapon being drawn. It doesn't however, justify shooting a suspect six times at long distance with his hands in the air.

I thought you were opposed to government interfering in our lives? Does this only apply to financial and safety regulation, or does this also include excessive police violence?

People have said it was Wilson who was approaching Brown, which seems about right, but according to Wilson's account, he had told Brown to freeze as he pursued, and Brown didn't take him seriously, and taunted Wilson... "You're not going to shoot me". He turned around and began to rush Wilson.

Always go with the least biased testimony. This is why I didn't post the interview with Brown's friend who was there as well. Who has more incentive to lie, a cop who could eventually face charges, or a group of witnesses who happened to be in the area?

It makes me wonder how the discussion would progress if the Eric Garner case wasn't caught on camera directly. I could see headlines like "Garner attacks police!", or "Garner, street thug struggles for officer's weapon". I bet somewhere there is even still talk about how he had it coming somehow.