The Ferguson thread / additional race discussion

[LosBlancos]

I could word this in a different way like say why should i as a member of the working class go against not only my own class interests but also the interests of every other working class person out there regardless of nationalianyone's surthering the interests of the elite by falling for the very same divisive strategies that you and other Conservatives endorse? Why should i support those who basically make their living off exploiting my class?

Why do i get the feeling that you would have been a part of the Nativist movement back in the old days throwing shit on the Irish and Italians as they got off the boats. Or do you only count immigrants as anyone that ain't pale?

Immigration is exactly what the upper class wants..an endless supply of cheap labour. Immigration of poor unskilled workers willing to price out Americans of service industry work and manual labour does not help the working class. Has nothing to the colour of anyones skin either immigrants can be from any country thanks for pulling the race card though.

 

[ebola?]

Just remember when the immigrants you say should be let in without any control go on to murder, rape, and be paedophiles remember the blood will be on your hands.

Are you, like, okay? Since there is no indication that a large proportion of immigrants are subject to higher rates of any of these behaviors than the domestic population, you're appearing decidedly delusional. You might want to check out the Darkside forum; it can help you deal with these types of negative emotions.

ebola

 

[What 23]

Rotherham. And that was just what they caught. I agree that it sounds a bit ignorant to say that they will be these things worse than or that 'whites' don't kill rape steal Etc, but I highly doubt that that many young white girls, that they-exactly would have been used as they were had the population of immigrants not been there. Why it continued to happen was in part natives being afraid to rock the multicultural boat and sound racist.

Oh and then there is the story of the Muslim that killed the girl for whoring too closely to their building- their mosque. Then there were the Muslims in Denmark who nearly killed this girl because they didn't like her dog. Bloodied her up. Tried to stone her and her dog. Threw her in a pond. Girl could have died.

Who knows though, maybe the universe course corrects. Maybe this girl would have been abused by a white guy (because they do it too), and the whore might have caught HIV. Maybe. But I doubt some gang of white guys are going to abuse a hot blond girl on the road/try to stone her for walking a dog. And without Muslims in the U.K., the whore, who was 'in their territory', may have lived on.

Then again to be real, HIV began in Africa it is thought. Had a white not had sex with a Black, or whomever in between had it with a Black... Yep. We wouldn't have to worry about dying when we have sex. But I don't 'blame' Blacks for this disease, either. But, that doesnt change the fact that unleashed upon us was an epidemic that has claimed a lot of lives, and caused us to alter the way we deal with things greatly (however, consequences ultimately cannot be ruled as bad or good, yet, but for these people... Ah fuck-it. Consequences).

And, man, think of the diseases us immigrants (our ancestors) to the Americas brought, to be fair.

 

[LosBlancos]

Are you, like, okay? Since there is no indication that a large proportion of immigrants are subject to higher rates of any of these behaviors than the domestic population, you're appearing decidedly delusional. You might want to check out the Darkside forum; it can help you deal with these types of negative emotions.

ebola

Studies show immigrants have less propensity towards violence than the domestic violation, however, the domestic population is already quite "diverse" and you would struggle to find many places more violent than America's diverse inner-cities which skews the data on the violence of the domestic populace.

Logic would tell you that examining the crime rates in Africa or South America you will see substantially higher rates of crime than America's rate. If we let in skilled worker's, those with degrees or aspiring toward's getting degrees, then I think chances are they will come to the USA and make a positive impact. The "right towards human migration" you note and the perceived policy of letting in every immigrant is extremely detrimental. Letting in poor, destitute people accustomed to violence in their native country I feel is a risk toward's the safety of Americans.

Let's examine this further this is some data from the UK:

Out of the Polish immigrants only 0.09% of them are criminals, whereas of the Algerians 3.38% of them are criminals. Now we can bury our head in the sand and outright dismiss these statistics or we could make informed decisions on our immigration policy and come to the conclusion that perhaps allowing in Polish people would be a better choice and Algerian applicants for citizenship/visas should be examined more thoroughly.

 

[Bardeaux]

Still haven't answered a single question about the Italiophobia of the late 1800s I've brought up repeatedly. It was identical to what you're describing now. The crime, the disease, the violence. These were all used to describe Italian immigrants. Are you not familiar with the nativist movement?

Or is that different somehow?

Duck and cover, I guess.

 

[LosBlancos]

Duck and cover, I guess.

You could use this lame argument for every immigrant group. What about the Anglo-Saxons who viewed by Native Americans as coming to take their land and radically change their way of life? Why aren't they empathizing with these current migrants? Was that just hysteria on the part of the Native Americans?

I don't blame anyone for exerting their first amendment right to free speech and saying they did not wish for their to be Italian or Irish immigrants. The situation then is much different from today, the United States is much more densely packed today we don't have acres upon acres of land ready for cattle to roam, and fields of crops to be planted. In those days we needed people to come and build the cities and settle the country, now well our cities are overflowing and we're trillions in debt and can't afford more immigrants that are costing more in benefit payouts and services they use than they bring in via tax revenue.

 

[Bardeaux]

You could use this lame argument for every immigrant group. What about the Anglo-Saxons who viewed by Native Americans as coming to take their land and radically change their way of life? Why aren't they empathizing with these current migrants? Was that just hysteria on the part of the Native Americans?

We kind of killed them all iirc, and popular culture is very, very aware of this. See: Redskins debate. WASP culture dominated the United States for hundreds of years, which didn't include Orthodox christians or catholics.

I don't blame anyone for exerting their first amendment right to free speech and saying they did not wish for their to be Italian or Irish immigrants. The situation then is much different from today, the United States is much more densely packed today we don't have acres upon acres of land ready for cattle to roam, and fields of crops to be planted. In those days we needed people to come and build the cities and settle the country, now well our cities are overflowing and we're trillions in debt and can't afford more immigrants that are costing more in benefit payouts and services they use than they bring in via tax revenue.

Oh. there's just not enough room now, that's why we can't accept any more unpopular immigrant groups. Why didn't they just make that case in the 1860s?

I also don't know what you're going on about regarding cattle and land. More than 80% of American land is rural, much if it is arable and most of it is suitable for raising cattle. (Open cattle ranging? Is that still an important pillar of the American economy?) Agriculture is still vastly important. Besides, not all undocumented workers are uneducated border jumpers. This is a major stereotype, the tech industry alone draws many undocumented immigrants.

If you love America so much you should help demolish the Statue of Liberty and its Emma Lazarus poem, because this is no longer what the country represents.

 

[LosBlancos]

We kind of killed them all iirc, and popular culture is very, very aware of this. See: Redskins debate. WASP culture dominated the United States for hundreds of years, which didn't include Orthodox christians or catholics.

Yes, they did suffer a very horrible fate aside from the few who own casinos now. However, I digress, surely the Native Americans held some anti-White sentiments which may have been well justified? There land is encroached on, they are killed, given diseases, I could go on. There was probably some of them who like you were multiculturalists and they sat down at the tribal meeting saying sure there's been violence and diseases but they aren't ALL bad, we need more diversity, we need to be culturally enriched, irregardless of the cost to our own way of life. I could see the situation of the Native Americans being analogous to present day Americans, we are at a crossroads in regards to immigration. This has nothing to do with "white supremacy" or any of that malarkey. Who do you think are most likely to be affected negatively by poor, destitute immigrants willing to work their ass of in manual labour and service industry jobs? More than likely lower-income people, statistically speaking mostly Hispanics and African-Americans.

On a typical day I will see numerous pick up trucks pass by my residence, many of them carrying several Hispanics ready for a hard days of work landscaping. Let's say they are earning a wage of $10 an hour. Now we open the flood gates of immigration and there are millions more looking for work and many of the recent immigrants also perform this type of labour. Now the people I see earning $10 an hour will either likely lose their job or have downward pressue exerted on their wages seeing them earn $9 or $8 per hour. This can go for a slew of different industries and this effect is not only basic economics but also cited by Marx in his idea of "reserve army of unemployed".

Oh. there's just not enough room now, that's why we can't accept any more unpopular immigrant groups. Why didn't they just make that case in the 1860s?

I also don't know what you're going on about regarding cattle and land. More than 80% of American land is rural, much if it is arable and most of it is suitable for raising cattle. (Open cattle ranging? Is that still an important pillar of the American economy?) Agriculture is still vastly important. Besides, not all undocumented workers are uneducated border jumpers. This is a major stereotype, the tech industry alone draws many undocumented immigrants.

If you love America so much you should help demolish the Statue of Liberty and its Emma Lazarus poem, because this is no longer what the country represents.

It's not a popularity contest. Is it that hard to understand that when we're trillions in debt we can't afford more people who need food stamps, health care, public education for their kids, a slew of other benefits and contribute little in taxes? I'm not saying every immigrant is like this and that's why we should evaluate on a case-by-case basis.

Picture America as a company, a small business perhaps. They have a team of salesmen, the business is in serious debt, they have several successful salespeople who bring in much more revenue than they are paid out in commissions and base pay, and several rather ineffective employees who are costing the company money. Nonetheless, they are on the brink of bankruptcy and in serious debt. It would obviously not be wise for the business to hire scores of new employees who would not bring in sales revenue in a sum greater than their base pay, as it would drive the company further into debt. Simple economics.

 

[paranoid android]

Immigration is exactly what the upper class wants..an endless supply of cheap labour. Immigration of poor unskilled workers willing to price out Americans of service industry work and manual labour does not help the working class. Has nothing to the colour of anyones skin either immigrants can be from any country thanks for pulling the race card though.

Yet you Conservatives are the first people to cry "but they will just move the jobs out of the country if we raise the minimum wage" every time the topic of raising the minimum wage comes up. We should boost the minimum wage to a livable wage and build up the unions again to make sure that companies can't hire cheap scab labour. Under our current political climate there is no will to do this through the political process so the workers are going to have to do this themselves by uniting and forcing the hand of the elite.

As for unskilled immigrants undercutting domestic workers i have seen companies try to take advantage of immigrants in this manner and it sickens me. When i was working for this shit company but thankfully was in a decent union they tried to bring in scab labour by getting these poor fucks right off the boat from Africa to do our work for us by bringing them in from a temp agency instead of paying us unionized workers OT if we wanted the hours. The union had it in the contract that basically non unionized workers could only work there if no unionized employees where around to do the job but every so often they would try to get away with sending us home early and then bringing in the scabs. I caught them at this one night and went right to my union rep and it was awile before they tried that one again. After that they stopped trying to pull that one pretty much altogether. As much as i dislike many aspects of bourgeois unionism they do have their place in capitalist society as otherwise minimum wage would be at rock bottom.

As for your argument about immigrants and crime look up 5 points Manhattan which was first a predominately Irish ghetto with possibly the worst conditions and highest crime rate in the western world at it's peak then became a mixed neighborhood as more Italians and Jews moved in. Crime is linked to Socio-Economic status not how dark the person happens to be. Even the moderates can seem to grasp that but the far right are so orthodox in their thinking that they will not let the idea of class being a factor seep into their thick fucking skulls.

 

[LosBlancos]

Yet you Conservatives are the first people to cry "but they will just move the jobs out of the country if we raise the minimum wage" every time the topic of raising the minimum wage comes up. We should boost the minimum wage to a livable wage and build up the unions again to make sure that companies can't hire cheap scab labour. Under our current political climate there is no will to do this through the political process so the workers are going to have to do this themselves by uniting and forcing the hand of the elite.

Jobs that can be outsourced for lower wages will be, that's a fact and a harsh reality of corporations. They aren't charities, they aren't out for "social justice", their obligation is to their shareholders and making a profit. I have no issues with workers forming unions but I also have no issue with a company firing every worker belonging to the union if they routinely strike for higher wages, that's the way a free-market should work.

I've seen plenty of data to suggest there is a strong correlation between a higher minimum wage and higher unemployment rates, at least here in the United States.

As for unskilled immigrants undercutting domestic workers i have seen companies try to take advantage of immigrants in this manner and it sickens me.

You do realize that many of these immigrants likely earn in one hour of work in United States or Canada the equivalent of what they would earn in a whole day of work in their native countries (which is likely why the emigrated in the first place). It's hardly exploitation, they voluntarily entered into the employment contract and agreed to their wages and can leave at any time.

As for your argument about immigrants and crime look up 5 points Manhattan which was first a predominately Irish ghetto with possibly the worst conditions and highest crime rate in the western world at it's peak then became a mixed neighborhood as more Italians and Jews moved in. Crime is linked to Socio-Economic status not how dark the person happens to be. Even the moderates can seem to grasp that but the far right are so orthodox in their thinking that they will not let the idea of class being a factor seep into their thick fucking skulls.

From a NYT article http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/30/books/the-first-slum-in-america.html:

"Anbinder, an associate professor of history at George Washington University, addresses himself to just this question, and the results are always enlightening. Yes, the Five Points was violent and crime-ridden. Yet the neighborhood's murder rates were probably well below what we would expect from a slum today (not least because the residents had very limited access to firearms). Yes, there was plenty of prostitution and public drunkenness. Anbinder quotes an inebriated woman telling a health official who asked her why she drank, ''If you lived in this place you would ask for whiskey instead of milk.'' But most Five Points residents -- like most residents of modern American slums -- seem to have worked like demons, sent everything they could back to their relatives in the old country and, in at least some cases, saved up astonishing amounts of money."

 

[Bardeaux]

Yes, they did suffer a very horrible fate aside from the few who own casinos now.

Most Native Americans divide the assets generated by the casinos among the tribe. Besides, this doesn't negate the past. They weren't given casinos in 1804 and told "off you go".

However, I digress, surely the Native Americans held some anti-White sentiments which may have been well justified? There land is encroached on, they are killed, given diseases, I could go on. There was probably some of them who like you were multiculturalists and they sat down at the tribal meeting saying sure there's been violence and diseases but they aren't ALL bad, we need more diversity, we need to be culturally enriched, irregardless of the cost to our own way of life.

A few things:

-The Natives (in North America anyway) weren't initially hostile on a large scale to European settlers. And vice versa, the Europeans depended on the natives for their very survival. It was a very cooperative first acquaintance.

-You're lumping all Europeans together with other Europeans. The French were not the British, who were not the Spanish. The French were not interested in exterminating the native population because they were after trade and commodities. It doesn't really set up an ideal marketplace when all of your associates are dead. Think of current immigration as the way the French wanted business with the natives. Immigrants don't want to exterminate the Americans like the British so they can reclaim New Mexico. They want jobs. And we have plenty of those for them. The Spanish wanted gold, and of course, gold is gold. This means certain death. As the most heavily armed nation on Earth that spends more on defense than every country on the planet combined, I'm not particularly worried about boat people invading and pillaging the US.

On a typical day I will see numerous pick up trucks pass by my residence, many of them carrying several Hispanics ready for a hard days of work landscaping. Let's say they are earning a wage of $10 an hour. Now we open the flood gates of immigration and there are millions more looking for work and many of the recent immigrants also perform this type of labour. Now the people I see earning $10 an hour will either likely lose their job or have downward pressue exerted on their wages seeing them earn $9 or $8 per hour.

Or an upward pressure will be exerted on wages in order for employers to remain competitive.Why are people kicking down the door to get into Costco, but not Sams Club? This is what happened in the 1950s and prior when suddenly millions of black southerns migrated north for industrial work and when vets returned home from the war. Also, assuming you're talking about illegal Hispanics in the back of those trucks, I will bet you every penny I own that they're not making $10 an hour.

PS - "labour" is spelled "labor" in the US. Just a heads up

It's not a popularity contest. Is it that hard to understand that when we're trillions in debt we can't afford more people who need food stamps, health care, public education for their kids, a slew of other benefits and contribute little in taxes?

Where exactly does every dollar in tax go? If we had a central bank that didn't charge exuberant interest in order to control the money supply, we'd owe a lot less to the bank. If we didn't spend as much on abandoned machines of war that are scraped before thy hit the dance floor, we would have a lot more revenue. I'm not taking millions if dollars, I'm talking about hundreds of billions. These resources could be allocated elsewhere, in sectors that could actually reduce the debt rather than contribute to it. Besides, Obama has racked up a slower rate of federal debt growth since Eisenhower.

Picture America as a company

I'd rather not, but I'll humor you.

a small business perhaps. They have a team of salesmen, the business is in serious debt, they have several successful salespeople who bring in much more revenue than they are paid out in commissions and base pay, and several rather ineffective employees who are costing the company money. Nonetheless, they are on the brink of bankruptcy and in serious debt. It would obviously not be wise for the business to hire scores of new employees who would not bring in sales revenue in a sum greater than their base pay, as it would drive the company further into debt. Simple economics.

This is business, not economics. Business is incentivized by profits, accumulation of assets and market growth, not the general well-being of is employees. Simple economics would be to ensure that needs are met according to demand at the lowest possible cost. As for your company, I would suggest they change their attitude. It's obviously not working.

 

[cashfl0w_d0nkey]

Out of the Polish immigrants only 0.09% of them are criminals, whereas of the Algerians 3.38% of them are criminals. Now we can bury our head in the sand and outright dismiss these statistics or we could make informed decisions on our immigration policy and come to the conclusion that perhaps allowing in Polish people would be a better choice and Algerian applicants for citizenship/visas should be examined more thoroughly.

The emigrants coming from areas with high political instability are going to be poorer and less educated, and thus more prone to crime. Contrast that with Poland, a country with a highly educated population but with little economic opportunity-- their emigrants to the UK are obviously going to be less prone to crime.

Are these levels of crime really that high? Consider that in Florida, 23% of black males can't vote because of prior felonies.

I've seen plenty of data to suggest there is a strong correlation between a higher minimum wage and higher unemployment rates, at least here in the United States.

This is such a ridiculous and misleading chart, it's not even funny. The cause of the unemployment spike in 2008 is definitely the subprime mortgage crisis and not the raising of the minimum wage. If you'd just continue the chart to the present day, you'd see minimum wage is unchanged and yet unemployment is nearly half of its peak.

 

[Bardeaux]

^Meanwhile, the official unemployment rate (used in the graph) has been cut in half and minimum wage was been risen, in some places very drastically.

sounds like some devil voodo

 

[vincubus]

A white male in the country armed with a rifle raises no questions-especially in hunting season. a black man in a densly populated city (where the bulk of merican murders occur) armed with a rifle-or any gun-raises suspicions -largely because black males commit most of the aforesaid murders. always consider context.

 

[Escher's Waterfall]

A white male in the country armed with a rifle raises no questions-especially in hunting season. a black man in a densly populated city (where the bulk of merican murders occur) armed with a rifle-or any gun-raises suspicions -largely because black males commit most of the aforesaid murders. always consider context.

How many crimes are committed with long guns?

 

[vincubus]

How many crimes are committed with long guns?

do refer to the perception, or to statistical evidence? For some, an ar 15 represents untallied as of yet murders

 

[paranoid android]

do refer to the perception, or to statistical evidence? For some, an ar 15 represents untallied as of yet murders

Man you must have some oversized jacket to fit a fucking AR-15 in or a carbine version of it in it. I think you would raise suspicions long before you started shooting.

Oh and Los Blancos according to this source 1 shithole rooming house in the 5 points called The Old Brewery averaged a murder a night for a good 15 years. Pretty impressive for a time when most murders where not done with guns and the population of Manhattan would have been much lower then today.

 

[pill_billy]

America is no longer being policed, it's being occupied.

yup and it has been for years now

 

[vincubus]

Man you must have some oversized jacket to fit a fucking AR-15 in or a carbine version of it in it. I think you would raise suspicions long before you started shooting.

Oh and Los Blancos according to this source 1 shithole rooming house in the 5 points cal
lower then today.

my initial response eas to a poster wringing his hands that a black man was killed in a wal mart for holding an "assault weapon".

nothing personal, but your second par stat is meaningless without a sociological view, and in no way denies the fact that most merican murders manifest in densly packed, high population cities


Nothing perspnal, but

 

[LosBlancos]

Or an upward pressure will be exerted on wages in order for employers to remain competitive.Why are people kicking down the door to get into Costco, but not Sams Club? This is what happened in the 1950s and prior when suddenly millions of black southerns migrated north for industrial work and when vets returned home from the war. Also, assuming you're talking about illegal Hispanics in the back of those trucks, I will bet you every penny I own that they're not making $10 an hour.

PS - "labour" is spelled "labor" in the US. Just a heads up

I don't see how migrant worker's would cause an upward pressure on wages. I just don't. You think they would not work for minimum wage or below in America when they desperately need a job and they are earning significantly more than their native countries. For service industry work and manual labour even workers knowing their are hundreds are out of work and have a similar skillset is enough for them to know they won't be expecting a rise in pay anytime soon.