The Discuss Your Views on Sex Work or Prostitution Thread

[Jabberwocky]

I notice several people come up with ideas like legalizing prostitution and regulating it so prostitutes for instance have to get std tests.

But I never hear anything about how they expect that to work.

Like, when I was involved in sex work on a part time basis it was at the street level. I did it as needed to fund my heroin habit.

I wouldn't have had time to get tested to renew my license to do sex work.

So say I don't. What happens then if I'm caught?

You can't enforce this stuff without getting back into punishing the most vulnerable.

I find a lot of suggestions to be well intended but not very practical when you really start looking at it.

I think the answer to that is that street work may remain criminalised, or otherwise deterred, while legal prostitution takes place in brothels, hotels (call girls), or a woman’s own home. It would also be problematic to enforce testing on call girls and women working from their own home.

Part of the benefit of testing is that it also creates opportunity for education: about STD’s, safe sex, safe drug use, legal rights, and services to deal with any of those issues and other things like homelessness, domestic violence etc. From conversations I have had with sex workers in Sydney, their mandatory every 2 week test includes exposure to all these services.

However, even if street work were to remain illegal, I don’t think women need to be arrested. Rather they should be taken to the testing centre and passed through the same education and access to service as others. Only if they utterly refuse to participate should they be treated more legally. I’m squeamish about the state forcing blood tests on anyone but I don’t have a problem locking people up if they don’t comply with providing a sample. It happens in vehicle accidents where drugs are suspected or where a person has been injured. There is no right to refuse being tested there.

That said, the policy should be to provide services to street walking sex workers such that they are able to survive off the street. Whether that is as simple as channeling them into a brothel if they need/‘want’ to continue sex work or getting them into stable public housing to solve their homelessness is something to be debated (I’m not sure why they should get priority when public housing waiting lists are 10 years long). I’m also openminded towards medically-supervised temporary incarceration and drug treatment for people who are at that point in their lives.

I don’t know how to overcome the personal rights issue and I’m generally against state coercion regarding the use of out bodies. But @JessFR and @chinup do you think being picked up off the streets and being put in a locked ward while you detoxed and were able to be put on a substitution treatment program would have been better or worse for you than continuing to turn tricks for hits?

 

[Jabberwocky]

I have no problem if one person shoots up fentanyl to other.
I have no problem if one person knocks out other in the ring.
I have no problem if one is person euthanized by other.

Only one requirement - consensual, with both parties being adults and understanding fully to what act they are consenting.

Regarding morals, I have nothing to say. To each his own. What is considered to be a "crime deserving death" in one culture (alcohol consumption and casual sex in Saudi Arabia) is "a good night out" or "evening in a pub" in another (USA or UK). On the flip coin, pill mill owners and pill dealers are imprisoned in USA, but in India it is a normal thing for pharmacies to sell opioids "over the counter". In both cases we are talking bout militarily allied states. So I would leave morals completely out of the picture when thinking about this kind of themes. Everybody has a moral code and it would be best if we all stick to it no matter the laws (if not contrary to the law). I mean millions of people watch and cheer when some UFC fighter is trying to damage and possibly kill another one. People pay, enjoy and cheer. Everybody applaud when some UFC fighter makes it from being poor African to world UFC champion. Nobody is talking from what place and what traumas is his motivation coming. So it is very hypocritical to look just part of the picture...

I thought this is going to be a short and condensed post, and it actually is kinda condensed.

This is a common argument towards legalising or decriminalising all kinds of behaviour. But it omits consideration of two things. The first is externalities, the idea that action between 2 consenting people can have outcomes that affect a third person. The second is that, human agency is not binary (i.e. free consent vs refusal to consent). Rather it is constrained by all kinds of things ranging from education (so that one can fully understand what ones options are) to responsibilities (that close off certain routes of action).

The other problem is that, like it or not, we live in a particular society governed by particular history, values, and culture. Saying Australians should or should not do something just because Saudi Arabians do it or Indians do it is simply a fallacious argument. The fact that we live in a particular society, governed by social contract theory, also means that the ‘follow your personal morality’ argument is a very under-developed argument (usually because opponents of social contract theory next argue ‘but didn’t ask to be born here’).

All societies require norms. They can evolve, develop, be challenged and debated. But without them we don’t have a society.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Regarding externalities, I said:

Everything we do has impact on other human beings.

Regarding

The fact that we live in a particular society, governed by social contract theory, also means that the ‘follow your personal morality’ argument is a very under-developed argument (usually because opponents of social contract theory next argue ‘but didn’t ask to be born here’).

I said

Everybody has a moral code and it would be best if we all stick to it no matter the laws (if not contrary to the law).

...with, "if not contrary to the law" included...

Regarding statement

Saying Australians should or should not do something just because Saudi Arabians do it or Indians do it is simply a fallacious argument.

I never said that they should do , I said that I will leave morals out of the picture as we are talking about the principle, and whole world (at least I am). I am not talking about Australia specifically or Saudi Arabia. I am pointing to a hypocrisy of military allied countries that have moral codes that are in direct opposition. It was a point why I am not willing to put morals of sex work into the arguments. I am trying to be practical and have my posts short. Not very easy to do.

Regarding

The second is that, human agency is not binary (i.e. free consent vs refusal to consent). Rather it is constrained by all kinds of things ranging from education (so that one can fully understand what ones options are) to responsibilities (that close off certain routes of action).

This can be applied in any area. In business where one person legally deceives and profits from another because he is more of an expert in that kind of business. I made my case with sports on that issue. In fact, when 2 people are making some sort of an exchange you can never take all things into consideration as they are virtually endless in scope. We all have different backgrounds, skills, current motivations, cognitive and emotional capacity/maturity...and that is the reason why society agrees to draw line somewhere. Not because it is ultimately correct but because it is probably best it can do at the moment. And because of that I fully agree with this:

All societies require norms. They can evolve, develop, be challenged and debated. But without them we don’t have a society.

Hope I made myself more clear, if not I will try tomorrow as I will try to sleep now. As I said, if I get some new insights I am open to change my stance. Things are complicated and require more dialogue to see from where and what depth one is coming from. I am happy to learn though as I realise that I can't be right about most of the things.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Hope I made myself more clear, if not I will try tomorrow as I will try to sleep now. As I said, if I get some new insights I am open to change my stance. Things are complicated and require more dialogue to see from where and what depth one is coming from. I am happy to learn though as I realise that I can't be right about most of the things.

You are clear. I misread a couple of your points. I apologise for that. Thanks for clarifying in a clear and professional way.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I don’t know how to overcome the personal rights issue and I’m generally against state coercion regarding the use of out bodies. But @JessFR and @chinup do you think being picked up off the streets and being put in a locked ward while you detoxed and were able to be put on a substitution treatment program would have been better or worse for you than continuing to turn tricks for hits?

definitely worse. any further violation of my bodily autonomy would exacerbate the feelings that turned my drug problem from 'manageable' (i.e. before the really bad shit happened) to completely out of control. in fact i had a couple of trips to my parents while i was selling my body, during which i detoxed, but because i did no psychological work i used straight away when i got back. would often have a punter lined up.

further, as i was smoking crack, you can't really detox for it. and there is no other way to support an expensive habit. i could very very easily smoke £100 in an hour if i was buying shots instead of weight. there just isn't another way that i know of that you can support a habit like that- i was doing any grafts that came along in addition to the sex work but it didn't matter how much money i made, it was gone in hours and most grafts require an element of planning and carry a higher risk of arrest.

it would be better if there was an option to give sex workers a high standard residential rehab program where they will be able to work on the trauma that lead them to do the sex work in the first place as well as treat their drugs problem. that would be expensive though so is unlikely to happen.

before i sold my body, i used to live in leeds where crime against sex workers got so rampant (one was found dismembered less than a mile from where i lived) that they actually started operating an official red light area. it only operated within certain hours but that seemed to work better in terms of reducing risk but it did not save Daria Pionko.

i never sold myself on the street, tbh every time i got in a strange mans car i thought of that poor Lyndsey Bourne and just hoped that the next time someone saw me it wouldn't be just my leg dumped in woodland. it is hard to articulate the level of desperation you have to feel to knowingly put yourself at that level of risk. breaks my heart tbh, not for me so much as for the girls still out there.

 

[JessFR]

definitely worse. any further violation of my bodily autonomy would exacerbate the feelings that turned my drug problem from 'manageable' (i.e. before the really bad shit happened) to completely out of control. in fact i had a couple of trips to my parents while i was selling my body, during which i detoxed, but because i did no psychological work i used straight away when i got back. would often have a punter lined up.

Yeah. I feel like this would have been very traumatic for me too.

And what's gonna happen as soon as I'm let out? I didn't decide to quit.... I wasn't ready to quit. I'd immediately go back out and use, only now I don't have my tolerance and so it's substantially more dangerous now.

I think it's a very bad idea. Frankly, I don't think street sex work should be illegal for the prostitute in any way. I don't think sex work should be illegal for the prostitute in pretty much any form. Offer support, send people out to connect them with support and victims services. Provide it from the needle exchanges, the supervised injecting centers. And from sexual health clinics.

But making prostitutes into criminals is a terrible idea that just continues a cycle of trauma victimization.

Laws that target the customers I can get on board with. I think it's a complicated issue which needs a sophisticated approach that involves the input from sex workers of various different areas. Like I can only talk from the perspective of my experience with street sex work. I can't speak from the perspective of a prostitute operating out of a brothel, or a sole trader working from home, or someone who webcams on the internet. These have different needs and I'd want to have them involved in working out the ideal system because there are limits to how much I fully appreciate their circumstances because I haven't lived it. But anything that further victimizes, oppresses, criminalizes, or institutionalizes an already highly vulnerable group of people is a recipe for more problems.

And more broadly, NOONE should be forced into detox. I have heard of sooooooooo many people who've died because they underwent a detox and then started using again. It is EXTREMELY risky to detox and loose your tolerance, you gotta be ready and fully commited to a clean and sober future. You need a support network and to be prepared for the risks.

A much better idea if you wanna try and help addicted sex workers is to reduce the regulations involving maintenance therapy. Provide a way to readily get on it then access their dose from pharmacies all over the place.

But even with a maintenance therapy it has to be something that's offered. Not something that's forced. If you send police out there to try and force street level sex workers into treatment, even maintenance, it's going to further reenforce a mindset of victimization and of having no control over your life. And I doubt there's almost any abuse victims out there who don't have a significant issue with feeling like they're not in control of their life and their body. Which is violated by making them go somewhere or take something because of the very activity they're likely involved in because of prior victimization, along with drug habits.


So yeah, very much on the same page as chinup here.

 

[JessFR]

i never sold myself on the street, tbh every time i got in a strange mans car i thought of that poor Lyndsey Bourne and just hoped that the next time someone saw me it wouldn't be just my leg dumped in woodland. it is hard to articulate the level of desperation you have to feel to knowingly put yourself at that level of risk. breaks my heart tbh, not for me so much as for the girls still out there.

Indeed. Every time I did it it was in the back of my mind. Whether the guy might try and rob me or rape me or hurt me, what options I had to fight back or escape if something went wrong.

It's not just women though of course. While that's generally what we think of and what's most common, there's many young male sex workers too, who also take on many of the same risks. You also have all the LGBTIQ sex workers of various types. And tragically there's also the people in all of these demographics but with the added complication of being a minor.

While my experiences are pretty exclusively with street level sex work as a heroin addicted woman in my 20s, which is probably one of the larger demographics of street level sex workers. There's many others and I try to remain cognizant that we are better off as a united voice.

Not suggesting that you're not doing that, it's just you reminded me of it.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I misread a couple of your points. I apologise for that.

No need for apologies. I am aware that I could improve my English, or at least I should make sure that I don't shorten my posts when I write about matters complex and delicate like this. Especially if I have only general opinion and not practical experience. I never paid for sex or been paid for it. In fact when my friends (adolescence years) went into striptease club I went home. Paying for sex just turns me off. Even watching free porn, unless under influence of stimulants is not something I practice. But I know that the reason why I feel and act like this is because of my particular life circumstances (where I was born, what influences/pressures environment put on me while I was developing, particular life experiences that came my way without me choosing explicitly...). That is the reason I am open to all kind of choices other people make. I simply am not in their shoes and can not know what is the right way for everybody. That is why I talk about this kind of matters "in principle" terms. And it is maybe better to stick to what I am passionate about and what I can then articulate much clearer. But I wanted to be one more non judgmental voice in this argument. Now that I accomplished that I can stay off this thread/topic.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Thanks very much for sharing your personal stories @JessFR and @chinup. I think they go straight to the core human cost of a utilitarian, prohibitionist law and order society.

Putting aside for one moment the prior trauma you both experienced, the idea that a substance abuse problem of all things can lead to the kind of degradation and trauma you both describe is despicable. As often happens, it seems the costs of larger social problems (if drugs are that) fall disproportionatly on women yet again.

Since a previous discussion about sex work months ago, I largely mended my wicked ways as a punter. What made me change my mind was being woken up to the fact that many/most sex workers cannot be giving genuine free consent because of the pre-drugs and pre-sex work trauma they experienced.

Now I don’t think all sex workers experienced such trauma and some mau have made what seems like a voluntary choice. Especially at the higher end of the business. But ultimately how is a punter to know and how is he to know his behaviour or requests are not re-traumatising that sex worker - and thereby perhaps increasing the chances s/he will not be able to leave that kind of work.

I was also strongly influenced by mama-san one day when she was feeling generous and smoked a couple of gratis points with me and opened up about how she manages the business.

She was scornful of many of the girls because they just wasted the money they made. She thought they should save it up to open a business or get an education. She also would not hire girls who actually used. So her team, were basically high school drop outs with no ambitions. Very nice people, not desperate, just full of ennui I think.

However she was adamant that in 30 years of running brothels in Australia, she had NEVER met a girl who enjoyed the work. In fact she likened them to old-school coal miners. She did say they sometimes had nice things to say about individual clients - but they were simply valued as a not-too-unpleasant break from the majority who treated the women as merely dolls to be ordered around as they saw fit.

All in all it was all too much for me, even though she assured me all had commented nicely about me. I just could not participate in something so despised by its participants.

Although, the woman I have mentioned a few time as seducing me with meth and a good time is a former sex worker (for reasons similar to jess and chinup) and I now have trouble seeing her as properly consenting and enjoying hanging out with me given the strong likelihood of a lot of trauma from men in her prior lives.

 

[Fiori di Bella]

I watched a program which featured a woman with a PhD in Psychology. She practiced as a Sexual Therapist and said that she occasionally has actual sex with her client(s), for teaching and guidance purposes only. She was in in a big wig and glasses, likely because her treatment methods may not be legal. I believe that she was in Florida.

I found this to be interesting. Obviously it is a gross misrepresentation to claim to be a doctor if one is not. But I wonder what’s to stop an enterprising prostitute from advertising herself as a Sex Therapist or Healer.

I’ve been thinking about another business venture for some time now. I think I’d make a great phone sex operator. It’s not illegal where I am, the set up is supposed to be quite easy, I’d get 1-2 other phones and talk dirty, which I enjoy anyway. I also live alone, so no one needs to be affected by this. I don’t think this would carry the same risk of soul-sucking damage that prostitution would. It’d be a bit more lucrative than the panty selling I’m sure.

I think it’s the act of physical sex with non-friends/lovers that would destroy me re: prostitution. I have had 1 singular one-night stand in my life. I cannot describe the utter emptiness that followed starting Sunday morning. I felt so incredibly gross.

In Tijuana, and I don’t know if this is true for all of Mexico, prostitution is legal. The girls carry health cards that verify which diseases they’ve been tested for and when they last tested negative. They must go to the clinic either every 6 or 8 weeks. This system seems pretty smart for the 3rd world country that’s so close to me. Pimps are illegal, BTW.

 

[JessFR]

In most places there absolutely nothing to prevent you calling yourself a therapist. It's not a regulated profession.

Calling yourself a doctor of course can get you charged with the unauthorized practice of medicine. But just a therapist? There's nothing in most jurisdictions that prevents anyone calling themselves one.

 

[Mr. Krinkle]

i think prostitution should be completely legal, organized, and legitimized

there's nothing wrong with paying for sex between 2 consenting adults

thats all i have for now

thanks

 

[SinninThotsandBears]

Everything we do has impact on other human beings. Imagine if every guy wanted to be MMA fighter and became one. How would that impact human race? This kind of "imagine what if" arguments are not something I feel capable of addressing. If everyone acted exactly like me I am sure that this place would not be a better one because other people see and know things that I don't. I just gave my opinions and for now I am sticking to it. Doesn't mean I could not change it if I see value in contra argument.

Well, for one the sale of Ed Hardy shirts would skyrocket. as a former fighter myself I think there is an interesting parallel here. Fighting is much like sex work, you essentially rent your body to a promoter for oftentimes too little pay, siphoned off further by managers who oftentimes act as pimps, taking a large number of young, impressionable or economically disadvantaged people and doing or saying whatever they need to in order for them to sign up for that next bout. Many enjoy their time in the line of work, despite the ups and downs, many also end up with deep wounds, psychologically and physiologically. This is all with the benefit of legal status, state commisions, etc. so I hate to think of the exploitation that goes on in a "closeted" industry.

So who am I to deny someone else the ability to use their own sovereign space, their body, and regulate what they can and cannot do with it to earn money? But if we were to cut the puritanical crap that punishes sex and celebrates violence we could put organizations and systems in place that protect these workers, it wouldn't even have to be governmental, it could be community based, just by virtue of not being forced to evade the law there will be a greater chance that the workers will claim their work product and establish a better, safer environment to rise, avoid stigmatization and do as they please with their body.

 

[JessFR]

i think prostitution should be completely legal, organized, and legitimized

there's nothing wrong with paying for sex between 2 consenting adults

thats all i have for now

thanks

The problem is the consenting part. Some of us have questions about just how consenting some of these consenting adults really are.

 

[Mr. Krinkle]

The problem is the consenting part. Some of us have questions about just how consenting some of these consenting adults really are.

You mean like girls selling sex for a drug habit or something nefarious - along those lines?

 

[JessFR]

You mean like girls selling sex for a drug habit or something nefarious - along those lines?

Yeah that kinda thing.
The law does recognize that proper binding consent requires it be free of duress. As well it should.

 

[Mr. Krinkle]

Yeah that kinda thing.
The law does recognize that proper binding consent requires it be free of duress. As well it should.

Right - there's that whole element that can be a problem.....but maybe if it's legal a lot of that goes away? idk tough to say - like how is the legal prostitution business in Nevada going with that kinda stuff? i would think you wouldn't have a job if you were a junky like any other job?

 

[JessFR]

Right - there's that whole element that can be a problem.....but maybe if it's legal a lot of that goes away? idk tough to say - like how is the legal prostitution business in Nevada going with that kinda stuff? i would think you wouldn't have a job if you were a junky like any other job?

Ok. How's that gonna work practically?

Sure. You're right you could fully regulate the prostitution sector so that virtually everyone in it are aware mentally healthy adults.

Buuut then what do you do with the people who aren't in the official sanctioned prostitution? The ones most vulnerable and where consent is most questionable are ones like street prostitutes.

Sooo,what do you do? Do you declare that prostitution illegal? Then how do you stop it? How do you keep the system then becoming their abuser too?

And if it's legal you're back to the same problem again.

My suggestion is what I've suggested before. Have all prostitution be legal but with outreach programs to help those not giving exactly free and enthusiastic consent to get out.

 

[Jabberwocky]

My suggestion is what I've suggested before. Have all prostitution be legal but with outreach programs to help those not giving exactly free and enthusiastic consent to get out.

And if anything needs to be illegal to please the law and order voters, criminalise the customers. Who are after all, one of the root causes of the problem. The women, should they consent, may be diverted to welfare, outreach or rehabilitation programs that may reduce their need to prostitute themselves.

While the issue of drug addicted prostitutes is obviously highly relevant to Bluelight, it’s probably worth remembering the size and scope of the sex industry. Street walkers are a tiny proportion of women who sell sex (and in Australia, they’ve pretty much vanished).

 

[JessFR]

(and in Australia, they’ve pretty much vanished).

It's less visible, but I'd hardly say it's non existent.

I suspect you're thinking of women visibly trying to solicit customers. Which I never was. The side I experience was homeless and/or visibly desperate women being solicited. And I can assure you they still exist. It's just not nearly as visible as more obvious forms of street sex work.

But if a customer and a sex worker* come into contact on the street, regardless of who initiates it, and sex or sexual favors are exchanged for payment. That's street sex work.

* And I submit if they're not a sex worker before, it they start doing it and establish a continued transactional relationship, then they become a sex worker then.

It doesn't require obvious and visible prostitutes. And it doesn't require that the sex worker is the one finding the customers or if the customers are finding her. So long as sex work is happening on the street it's street sex work no?