The Big & Dandy Ego Death Thread

[knock]

It's a load of horseshit. For a start there's no such thing as the "ego" - it's a theory Freud dreamed up 100 years ago that's been discredited for decades. Leary mentioned it a few times in his writing in the 60's to try and sound scientific and that's why it got associated with psychedelics.

I think people seem to associate it with taking a big dose, but it would be more accurate to call it a "Big dose psychedelic experience" rather than worry about crap like "ego-loss".

Come now Ismene, there is Freud's definition of the ego which is part of his non-scientific theory, and there are vernacular meanings of "ego" which, although ultimately subjective, are possible to discuss, and if some people can agree on a meaning that makes sense to them, then they can agree on ego-phenomena such as ego death.

It does seem to mean different things to different (groups of) people, though.

The closest I have come to what I might call ego death was on methoxetamine. I was aware that things which define me as an individual, and indeed a human, were no longer available to me. I am normally keenly aware of my "personal history", what happened yesterday and earlier today; and I'm aware of things I plan to do. I'm aware of who I am - my behavioural characteristics, if you like - and the values I hold, the things which give my actions some purpose and meaning. I'm aware of my position in the world - my relationship with family, friends, co-workers. My responsibilities and expectations.

So in this methoxetamine experience I was stripped of all these things. I had no idea who I was, how I was likely to behave, what a human is, what i was supposed to do, who my friends were, what a friend was. I had only a vague awareness of what the recent past was (I knew on some level I'd taken a drug), but I had no attachment to or memory of other events of the day. I hoped that this was a temporary situation, but I wasn't by any means certain.

That might not be ego death but it was pretty close.

On the other hand I was perfectly capable, after a while of physically spinning around in bed, of deciding I needed grounding, locating my music player and earphones and putting on some tunes.

 

[interleukin]

I like to think of it as a loss of self identity - having no access to memory to let you put what you see into context causing you to be only an observer. I also relate it to the times when I think I'm someone/thing else. I've had this happen to me on 5-meo-mipt, 5-meo-dmt, dpt and salvia.

 

[IamMe90]

It's a load of horseshit. For a start there's no such thing as the "ego" - it's a theory Freud dreamed up 100 years ago that's been discredited for decades. Leary mentioned it a few times in his writing in the 60's to try and sound scientific and that's why it got associated with psychedelics.

I think people seem to associate it with taking a big dose, but it would be more accurate to call it a "Big dose psychedelic experience" rather than worry about crap like "ego-loss".

"Ego" is commonly used philosophical vernacular that refers to subjectivity and self. If you're dense enough to think that when people refer to ego loss, they refer to the loss of the subconscious mediation between desire and reality...

First of all, you're just wrong from a theoretical standpoint that memory of an "ego loss" experience contradicts itself. There is no logical contradiction between memory and ego loss - there is no reason why only subjective consciousness can record memory.

As for communicating the experience - you precisely hit the hit on the nail, unwittingly. Most people can't adequately convey the essence of their experiences with ego loss because language is designed to be subjective - it is at odds with the entire ego loss experience. But language can be manipulated and we can give people at least an idea of our experience after enough contortion.

 

[IamMe90]

But if you can remember it happened then by definition you understood you were present - otherwise your memory wouldn't have been recording it.

you don't exist and nothing else exists, everthing is one

The trouble is with using phrases like this is that they can mean different things to anyone. I know the feeling that you mean (I just call it tripping) but are you definate that you wern't at all aware of where you were? If your dog was laid beside you would you simply stand up and tread on him because you thought you were one with everything? Or would you step around him because you know "My dogs sat down there and I don't want to tread on him and hurt him" - obviously if you are capable of stepping over your dog or not walking into the door with your face then your sense of self is still very much present.

And you may be very much correct that most peoples' purported "ego loss" experiences are not so. However, there are a plethora of experiences where people truly aren't aware of their surroundings. I myself, on a 4th plateau DXM experience, perceived the area surrounding me as entirely devoid - black, spaceless, contentless, and I was sure that I had experienced God (interestingly, I was an atheist and still am). I could certainly NOT discern my surroundings.

 

[DwayneHoover]

So what's the point of pursuing "ego-loss" experiences? If by definition you cannot remember anything since for it to be "real" ego-loss (according nto a poster above) "you" must be gone, thus your brain is not recording any memory of the event, thus "you" have no memories of it, and "you" were in effect in a total blackout during the period and "you" experienced exactly ZERO.

So therefore there would appear to be ZERO point or utility or reason to pursue the experience.

However, if one aspect of the earlier remarks were wrong, it MAY be useful... what if the brain were still recording memories because, you know, the things are still happening to the same brain, so while IN the ego-loss state you really don't know who or what you are and cannot relate what is happening to any earlier experiences of your life, BUT memory traces are still being left. Then AFTER IT IS OVER, "you" could remember "you" as "you" but also remember the recorded experience during the ego-loss as well as remembering the fact that during it you had no knowledge of being "you"... but NOW that you are "you" again, you can recall AND INTEGRATE the formerly groundless experience and apply lessons learned to "your" life. It can be a useful experience to "you", BUT ONLY IN RETROSPECT. I think this is probably how it works, right?

 

[villian]

So what's the point of pursuing "ego-loss" experiences?

when ego is gone all that is left is the divine spark/god conciousness/samadhi

it is the entire goal of meditation.. (although psychs can get you there as well)


“Be still and know I AM God”. (Psalms 46:10)
Jesus said “The Kingdom of God is within you”. (Luke 17:21)
The Prophet Mohammad said: “He who knows his Self knows his Lord”.

 

[DwayneHoover]

when ego is gone all that is left is the divine spark/god conciousness/samadhi

it is the entire goal of meditation.. (although psychs can get you there as well)

I understand that and agree and have experienced it.

GREAT and perfect quotes, btw!

I guess really my point was to disagree with an earlier post that said "if you remember it then it was not 'real' ego-loss".

NOT TRUE... just because your ego is gone when it happens does not mean that there is zero memory, and that your "ego consciousness" cannot LATER recall the brain-recordings of the experience and realize "OH, that was ME that was going through that stuff" and apply many things from it to your life and future decisions.

If there is NO memory or trace of any kind, then its useless and happened in a total vacuum. Its total amnesia and for all practical purposes it never happened. No one would ever know there was even such a thing as ego-loss because all knowledge of it would be lost inside the event horizon of a mental black hole of "no memories can possibly be recorded of it."

Its only important if it can be remembered and connected back to you and used in some way AFTER it is over.

And in fact this is exactly what happens.

 

[Project Will]

So what's the point of pursuing "ego-loss" experiences? If by definition you cannot remember anything since for it to be "real" ego-loss (according nto a poster above) "you" must be gone, thus your brain is not recording any memory of the event, thus "you" have no memories of it, and "you" were in effect in a total blackout during the period and "you" experienced exactly ZERO.

So therefore there would appear to be ZERO point or utility or reason to pursue the experience.

However, if one aspect of the earlier remarks were wrong, it MAY be useful... what if the brain were still recording memories because, you know, the things are still happening to the same brain, so while IN the ego-loss state you really don't know who or what you are and cannot relate what is happening to any earlier experiences of your life, BUT memory traces are still being left. Then AFTER IT IS OVER, "you" could remember "you" as "you" but also remember the recorded experience during the ego-loss as well as remembering the fact that during it you had no knowledge of being "you"... but NOW that you are "you" again, you can recall AND INTEGRATE the formerly groundless experience and apply lessons learned to "your" life. It can be a useful experience to "you", BUT ONLY IN RETROSPECT. I think this is probably how it works, right?

You can still record memories while in a state of ego loss. During high dose salvia and DMT trips it's easy to lose your sense of self. The experience is quite accurately described earlier by ColtDan and IamMe90 (or as well as words can describe it.) I remember completely losing myself many times on DMT and a couple times on salvia - the brain records the experience but not in the normal sense. It feels like you are an observer, not a separate entity. Not a human or a life form, just an observer. Part of everything. Words don't do it justice in the least.

I have found it very rewarding losing myself. It has helped me put into perspective how much our perception of reality is a creation of our minds, and how that reality can be changed in a very real way. Speculating on why or not it is useful without having experienced it is pointless.

But if you can remember it happened then by definition you understood you were present - otherwise your memory wouldn't have been recording it.

you don't exist and nothing else exists, everthing is one

The trouble is with using phrases like this is that they can mean different things to anyone. I know the feeling that you mean (I just call it tripping) but are you definate that you wern't at all aware of where you were? If your dog was laid beside you would you simply stand up and tread on him because you thought you were one with everything? Or would you step around him because you know "My dogs sat down there and I don't want to tread on him and hurt him" - obviously if you are capable of stepping over your dog or not walking into the door with your face then your sense of self is still very much present.

Have you ever experienced what is described as ego loss? Recording memories does not require a sense of self.

Ego loss is perhaps not the best term for the experience. Bringing up the Freudian definition of ego is somewhat missing the point. It is a very real thing, whatever you want to call it.

 

[Slain]

I find ego loss a little unsettling at first. Even after several times, I find it a little scary at times.
But yeah, I find it fun to piece your self back together.

 

[Ismene]

1. It's a dissolving of your understanding of yourself as a seperate entity from everything else that exists.

2. having no access to memory to let you put what you see into context causing you to be only an observer

3. You can still record memories while in a state of ego loss

So that's at least 3 completely contradicting ideas of what "ego-loss" is just within this short thread. Until we can settle on a defintion that has some semblance of meaning then we're just pissing in the wind.

One thing I'm curious about Iamme90 - you say "I myself, on a 4th plateau DXM experience, perceived the area surrounding me as entirely devoid - black, spaceless, contentless". What part of you was perceiving this if you had no sense of self?

Have you ever experienced what is described as ego loss?

Seeing as I consider it a meaningless phrase then no, I havn't. It reminds me of someone who lived with Leary who said "After a trip everyone would come up and say "Did you see the white light?". I didn't know if I had or not but I'd say "Yes" just so I wouldn't be the odd one out".

 

[Ismene]

Bringing up the Freudian definition of ego is somewhat missing the point. It is a very real thing, whatever you want to call it.

That's just the point, the ego isn't a "very real thing" at all. It's a theory some bloke dreamed up 100 years ago in an age before brain scans, before the brain could be studied in any meaningful way. There's no supporting evidence for it whatsoever - so using that as your basis and trying to build complex theories about the "death" of the "ego" is obviously going to be shit as well.

 

[Project Will]

That's just the point, the ego isn't a "very real thing" at all. It's a theory some bloke dreamed up 100 years ago in an age before brain scans, before the brain could be studied in any meaningful way. There's no supporting evidence for it whatsoever - so using that as your basis and trying to build complex theories about the "death" of the "ego" is obviously going to be shit as well.

I am not debating theories of the ego. The question is clearly stated: "can someone break down this concept [ego loss] for me?" The term "ego loss" in relation to psychedelics refers to losing one's sense of self, to put it simply. Call it whatever you want, the point of this thread is about the concept of "ego loss" as it pertains to psychedelics - not the existence of the ego. You could call it "loss of self" if you are hung up on the word ego.

Your argument may very well have merit, Ismene, but that isn't the point of this thread as I see it. I do feel that the term "ego" as conceived by Freud is oversimplifying a very complex concept, however this isn't the time or place for that discussion

 

[Shambles]

The Big & Dandy Ego Death Thread - for all your ego-killerisation needs

 

[Psychodelirium]

I think that without comitting ourselves to any kind of theory about the "ego", Freudian or otherwise, we can still safely say that psychedelics can bring about a profound alteration of the sense of self. Loosely speaking, the "ego" is just the sense of self that is familiar, and the "death" or "loss" of the "ego" is just the disappearance of that familiar sense of self.

 

[Ismene]

Sure, I certainly agree psychedelics can change the way you feel about yourself and your surroundings. I don't agree that feeling at one with everything is mutually exclusive to losing all sense of yourself tho. I think you can feel at one with everything and still have a perfectly valid sense of yourself.

Incidentally I don't think feeling at one with everything is something unique to psychedelics. I think walking in the countryside, playing a sport, having sex etc can all make you feel at one with everything.

 

[Shambles]

Gotta disagree with you on this one, Issy. Have had the ego-death thing on two occasions and it bears no relation to a standard psychedelic experience or anything else. And yes, to use your famous test for ego loss, you could have taken my wallet without me noticing at the time. I couldn't have given it to you cos I wasn't there but I wouldn't have noticed it happen. Was aware of nothing of this Earth or myself for a while. Tis an amazing thing but very rare, I'd say.

 

[seagal26]

This is something I've spent some time considering. I've had a variety of high-dose experiences and some very intense "ego-loss" experiences. I use quotes just because it seems like the concept of ego-loss can apply to a wide variety of experience. The nature of these experiences are different from any kind of lower-dose ego-loss.

In my experience, ego loss is not something I would seek out. I am not easily separated so it takes a big dose and a lot of kicking and screaming. It's something that happens from time to time, and something I must be prepared for, but I won't go looking for it. I just don't respond well to it.

 

[Shambles]

See to me that doesn't sound like you're describing what I would consider an ego-loss experience at all cos by definition you have no ego to be concerned about anything at the time. Tis pure bliss. Neither of my two ego death experiences involved especially high doses - have used way higher doses than those occasions many times and just gotten the usual trip experience. Dose is irrelevant to ego loss, in my opinion. It's just luck if you happened to be blessed by it or not. Most don't get the chance and those that do tend to only get one or two bites of the cherry it seems.

 

[villian]

Most don't get the chance and those that do tend to only get one or two bites of the cherry it seems.

I've only gotten their once via drugs, but in the 3 weeks after that experience I was able to return to the exact same headspace for a couple seconds on 2 nights while lying in bed before going to sleep.. I'm positive meditation can get one back to this spot but I've yet to achieve it yet.. in due time I guess..

 

[Shambles]

I can totally see meditation being a non-druggy route to get There. Used to meditate daily during my college years and had rare flashes that definitely seemed to be getting close. Have known one person who claimed to have achieved a brief state of ego-loss whilst meditating. He said it was too intense for him and he broke the meditation before going too deep though. Silly sausage.