The Big & Dandy AL-LAD Thread - Part 1

[ZFC]

Indeed, the 9,10 bond is saturated, how can I have missed that?

That still doesn't explain the discrepancy between Nichols' figures and the underground reasearchers' figures...

 

[Si Dread]

... pure speculation & I do doubt it's the case but it is remotely possible that the tabs are of varying dosage...

Most likely these discrepencies are much the same as those related to LSD. Set, setting & the simple fact that no two trips of anything are the same are probably at play.

As ever, go easy with new stuff, find your sweet spot & remember, YMMV!

 

[Chocolate-Salad]

Hey, I took what I believe to be 150mics of this stuff (one hit from a vendor). It absolutely blew me and everyone I took it with away. The visuals were immense, but i'm getting confused because some people are describing the amount we took as low, and I can't even imagine taking a higher dose for the life of me. Could I have gotten 25B? What are the subjective differences? I have no real experience of acid.

The only way to know that you didn't get 25x is by swallowing the paper(s) the second they enter your mouth.
It's hard to define the subjective differences without much research in the AL-LAD realm. Besides that, the data from some reports is unreliable if the product remains untested for legitimacy.

You say the visuals were immense, but what about the mind fuck? Was your brain 'frying' per se? What about the duration?

Quoting Shulgin on his subjective effects:

(with 160 µg) "I took 160 ug at 11 AM on an empty stomach and lay down to listen to a hypnotic relaxing tape, with eye shades and headphones. The onset was very gradual over two or three hours. There was some visual distortion similar to LSD, but mild. I decided that this was about as intense as it was going to get, so I lay down in the living room with the others. The experience continued to intensify over the next hour in intermittent waves. I had to verify that I was actually in a physical room rather than in the music I was hearing. There was never any fear or panic, but I chose to retreat to a private place for the next couple of hours. Soon I started to feel worse and I tried to gain some insight and relief from my negative attitude. I prayed, and I cried, and I began to feel calmer and had more positive thoughts as to how to deal with the others, but I was still afraid to go out into the group. I was afraid that my hopelessness would bother them but I eventually went back out at about the five hour point and the rest of the day was spent pleasantly and smoothly. I took 2.5 g of L-tryptophan to sleep, and I slept well, waking twice."

 

[PsychedelicSicknes]

i found there to be a minimal "mind fuck" 150ug was "ok" no REAL visuals for me until 300ug. flowing patterns brighter colors, no too crazy or vivid. lsd visuals are better ime. i wouldnt take it agian UNLESS i took at least 300ug, 2 blotters

 

[PsychedelicSicknes]

id have to agree with mr. shulgin about the visuals, at 150ug were minumal, 300ug they were there, but mild, spot on. Nothing like lsd or 2c visuals. for more intense id say at least 450ug. im not one to dose high on lsd or mush AT ALL. bu i find al-lad i could prob go high and feel comfortable. i would push 450ug next time or sometime in the future.

 

[RC Enthusiast]

The only way to know that you didn't get 25x is by swallowing the paper(s) the second they enter your mouth.
It's hard to define the subjective differences without much research in the AL-LAD realm. Besides that, the data from some reports is unreliable if the product remains untested for legitimacy.

You say the visuals were immense, but what about the mind fuck? Was your brain 'frying' per se? What about the duration?

Quoting Shulgin on his subjective effects:

I did take it under my gum. My brain wasn't exactly going crazy, but I did sort of get ego death at around the 6-7 hr mark. Maybe I could say that the mind element was like a reasonably strong hit of 2ce/i? I just honestly can't believe the visuals we all got. It was literally like i'd bombed an entire gram of 2cb or something. The entire world was just alive. Music sounded brilliant. A fair bit of bruxism, sort of like ecstasy/speed. Along with sort of fiendly rapid movement, dancing, music appreciation etc. I was still seeing some shit while I went to sleep.

My tummy was reasonably upset throughout the trip, and I felt sick for quite a lot at the start. I never felt any panic or real fear, but it was very overwhelmingly strong at certain points. I dunno what's going on to be honest.. whether we got legit stuff, and had a really strong reaction, because it's poorly laid? Or if we got 25B? But man, the visual component was probably the most striking. People around the internet are reporting a lot of visuals, then others... not so much. Maybe we got more from it because we haven't taken anything but week for ages?

 

[Transform]

I have removed a post asking for help identifying whether a substance taken was AL-LAD or not. I am sure you are all aware that the unreliability of answers to such questions makes it borderline dangerous for us to answer them, and as a result they are not permitted on bluelight. Instead of replying to such posts or ignoring them I would appreciate if users reported them.

Thanks :D

Ergoloids are active when swallowed but NBOMes are not. This is a dangerous test but it does appear to be reliable. The most sensible method combines assessment of the taste, oral activity AND the reaction to ehrlich's reagent.

 

[RC Enthusiast]

I have removed a post asking for help identifying whether a substance taken was AL-LAD or not. I am sure you are all aware that the unreliability of answers to such questions makes it borderline dangerous for us to answer them, and as a result they are not permitted on bluelight. Instead of replying to such posts or ignoring them I would appreciate if users reported them.

Thanks :D

Ergoloids are active when swallowed but NBOMes are not. This is a dangerous test but it does appear to be reliable. The most sensible method combines assessment of the taste, oral activity AND the reaction to ehrlich's reagent.

What does AL-LAD taste like?

 

[Transform]

Ergoloids are generally accepted not to have any taste. NBOMes taste bitter and may numb the mouth, The DOx series is also quite bitter.

Unfortunately there is the complication that inks used on blotters may also be bitter, and low doses of NBOMes may not have a noticeable taste. This is why a multi-criterion check is required.

 

[Lady Codone]

Qualitatively, how similar is this stuff to acid? I recently tripped for the first time on LSD and wasn't too impressed. Maybe something with a shorter duration would be better.

Will probably wait until this chem gets more established before diving in. Just curious

 

[Incunabula]

Hi,

nobody mentionned the fact that Nichols often talked about AL-LAD (example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ZJtdZUy1LYE#t=2393s table around 40 minutes) always mentioning the fact that the active dose really seems to be higher than that of LSD-25 (in my link: 110% the potency of LSD-25 in humans, 285% (!) in rats). Even Shulgin seems to argue in favor of that idea with his dosage range of 80 to 160 µg (against 60-200 µg for LSD-25).
And yet the latest TR seem to view this batch as weaker than your regular lucy. Call me paranoid but I find this suspicious...

About the dosage discrepancies

First, Shulgin has been wrong before, at the top of my head allylescaline and escaline comes to mind. Most people found these to be less potent than Shulgin reported. I think there's several reasons for this, one being that some of the chems he made wasn't ever trialed that many times, by that many people, making the recommended dosages in pihkal and tihkal quite subjective for some of the chems. And also making the dosage recommendations susceptible to Shulgins own set and setting.
Another example is 4-ho-met which he describes as "Qualitatively a lot like psilocin" which is just so absolutely completely wrong, in my opinion, 4-ho-met is NOTHING like psilocin.

And Nichols, He's a legitimate researcher. he doesn't do in vivo testing (although I've heard him allude of having tasted psychedelic drugs in the past) but tests the potency of drugs in drug discrimination tests on rats. I don't see were he can have the information from that AL-LAD should be 10 % stronger than LSD in humans. It would be illegal of him to give psychedelics to humans without special permission, so that info must be second hand. Don't get me wrong, I have huge respect for Nichols and I know that he knows what he's talking about, but.......

And nother thing is, how can some one compare two drugs that do actually have subjectively slightly different effects. And say that one is 10 % more potent? If AL-LAD feels more calm and is less visual than LSD, it can also feel less potent. Even though science says it should be more potent.

in vitro rat tests just doen't hold up to in vivo! in my opinion. And Ki values and all that stuff just means fuck all in the end, if you ask me.
I find it logical that lengthening the methyl of LSD to not only ethyl, but propyl with a double binding (allyl) to cause a drop in potency because of the bulkyness of the group. It's very rare in psychedelic pharmacology that potency goes up when a carbon chain is lengthened. (or what? correct me if I'm wrong here )
In the case of LSZ, I can understand why it should be more potent than LSD, because the 2 ethyl "antlers" have been locked in place by the azetidine wrong, so more/all molecules will fit snuggly into the receptor. What we still need to see though, is wether it is actually subjectively better than LSD, which I am actually doubtfull about.

Besides that, there can be several reasons the blotters have subjectively been found to not be as strong as we might have expected:
- The dose in the blotters might actually be lower than 150 ug. Also we don't know the purity of the AL-LAD (as far as I know) which means that if it's less pure than the chemist thought, the blotters will end up containing less AL-LAD than they were aiming at. But it's still AL-LAD.
- The salt form? We don't know which salt form it is. (I find 2C-B HCl A LOT more potent than 2C-B HBr for instance. And I find it to have a lot quicker onset as well)
- Set and setting of the people who tried it so far ( as Si ingwe already mentioned)

actually. Reading Shulgin's AL-LAD page in TIHKAL again, I really don't find it that far off from my own findings with it.

Qualitatively, how similar is this stuff to acid? I recently tripped for the first time on LSD and wasn't too impressed. Maybe something with a shorter duration would be better.

Will probably wait until this chem gets more established before diving in. Just curious

It's subjectively very similar to LSD. The difference is in the detail, and in the onset and duration.

LSD is by far the best psychedelic ever created though, you just need to try it again, probably at a higher dose

 

[ZFC]

Another example is 4-ho-met which he describes as "Qualitatively a lot like psilocin" which is just so absolutely completely wrong, in my opinion, 4-ho-met is NOTHING like psilocin.

Well, it is certainly qualitatively a lot closer to psilocin than to, say, 2C-B...

in vitro rat tests just doen't hold up to in vivo! in my opinion. And Ki values and all that stuff just means fuck all in the end, if you ask me.

I agree that rat testing doesn't hold up to homo sapiens testing, but the rat discrimination tests Nichols does are in vivo. He does in vitro tests of binding affinities to rat tissues as well, but the discrimination experiments he does are with living rats, trained to discriminate LSD, so it's technically in vivo

It's very rare in psychedelic pharmacology that potency goes up when a carbon chain is lengthened. (or what? correct me if I'm wrong here )

Well, orally, MAOs can cause all sorts of surprises. DMT is not orally active per se, MET is. The Shulgin rule of thumb is that tryptamines become less active below two amine carbons and above 6.

Besides that, there can be several reasons the blotters have subjectively been found to not be as strong as we might have expected:
- The dose in the blotters might actually be lower than 150 ug. Also we don't know the purity of the AL-LAD (as far as I know) which means that if it's less pure than the chemist thought, the blotters will end up containing less AL-LAD than they were aiming at. But it's still AL-LAD.
- The salt form? We don't know which salt form it is. (I find 2C-B HCl A LOT more potent than 2C-B HBr for instance. And I find it to have a lot quicker onset as well)
- Set and setting of the people who tried it so far ( as Si ingwe already mentioned)

...or, this is just plain good ol' LSD-25 and they are targetting primarily a market of psychedelic connoisseurs... Still, it would be a first to see an active lysergamide (be it lucy) sold so openly as an RC.


Did somebody Ehrlich test these 150 µg blots anyway?

 

[Incunabula]

Well, it is certainly qualitatively a lot closer to psilocin than to, say, 2C-B...

Yes, but just slightly closer to psilocin than 2CB. I mean you can feel that 4-ho-met is a tryptamine, but just barely, in my opinion. All tryptamines could be called psilocin like.....
The point is more that Shulgin often didn't try his compounds more than 1 or 2 times max. He says so in that Vice interview. For example 2C-B, his favorite psychedelic, he says he's only taken it "a few times"
Of cause, AL-LAD was probably so exciting that it was trialed more than some other compounds, and spread out to more people in his circle of freinds. Still, the number of experiences he was basing his dosage recomendations on were probably less than the number of experiences in this thread.

I agree that rat testing doesn't hold up to homo sapiens testing, but the rat discrimination tests Nichols does are in vivo. He does in vitro tests of binding affinities to rat tissues as well, but the discrimination experiments he does are with living rats, trained to discriminate LSD, so it's technically in vivo

That's righ of cause, when I said in vivo, I meant human in vivo. I should have been more specific. Anyway, human subjective experience vs. science. I trust what I, or another human, feel. Before what a rat discrimination test says to be true.

Well, orally, MAOs can cause all sorts of surprises. DMT is not orally active per se, MET is. The Shulgin rule of thumb is that tryptamines become less active below two amine carbons and above 6.

Ah, yeah :D That's right actually.

...or, this is just plain good ol' LSD-25 and they are targetting primarily a market of psychedelic connoisseurs... Still, it would be a first to see an active lysergamide (be it lucy) sold so openly as an RC.

Well, the original source could sure pull that scam (for reasons I can't say here) But any one trying to sell this as an RC would be in serious deep shit if it turned out to just be normal LSD.

Did somebody Ehrlich test these 150 µg blots anyway?

Yes, I think so. But not here on Bluelight.

I must say I can understand you. Normally I am super sceptic when some one claims to have this or that rare chemical. But this one I'm believing.

 

[shishigami]

It's also worth noting that the Shulgin's frequently looked for dosages that would be good as therapeutic agents, if you're looking to go far out then his dosages are going to be low.

 

[THCified]

Qualitatively, how similar is this stuff to acid? I recently tripped for the first time on LSD and wasn't too impressed. Maybe something with a shorter duration would be better.

Will probably wait until this chem gets more established before diving in. Just curious

I had some more or less disappointing experiences with LSD when i was younger, and so, over the years carried the belief, that LSD is not what i'm looking for. I thought it messes too much with my head. But then, much later, i had ~3-4 experiences within one year, and i can just sign, that...

LSD is by far the best psychedelic ever created though

It really is!

There is absolutely nothing to be scared of, nor something which one couldn't enjoy. It's so pure, so intimate, it's like seeing the world trough some sort of all-encompassing, magnifying glass!

LSD is beautiful beyond what words can express

Whatever, i'm still interested in this AL-LAD-stuff, but besides having something new to discover, i see no reason why to ingest this when some decent LSD could be at hand?

 

[ZFC]

but besides having something new to discover, i see no reason why to ingest this when some decent LSD could be at hand?

I understand that most of this community is young, but some of us have too much to lose for prison (or other form of legal persecution) to be an option. These will usually prefer to possess only non-illegal substances no matter how absurd the whole situation is. These analogs are a godsend to these people.

 

[Just A Guy]

I've bought some before it is too late but unfortunately it will be quite some time before I actually get to try them...

As have I. I'll link to a detailed trip report once I've had an opportunity to experiment w/ this one. I am very psyched about it, though. Will consume (swallow immediately) 3 150ug tabs. I have experience with psychedelic agents, like LSD (albeit it has always been weak), psilocybin (only the best!), and other psychs including MDA, 5-MEO-DALT, 6-APB, and of course, marijuana.

I haven't even enjoyed thc in the last month or so, and it has been a couple or more months since I've used any other psychedelic, so I'm pretty excited.

As a sidenote: I miss Sepher. I will be concentrating on channeling huge amounts of positive energy to his memory.

EDIT: Actually, should this turn out to be pretty decent, I'm not going to leave a trip report at all. Can't stand this prohibitionist world we live in.

 

[ZFC]

Actually, should this turn out to be pretty decent, I'm not going to leave a trip report at all. Can't stand this prohibitionist world we live in.

Sooo... you'll only leave a TR if this doesn't go well for you, thereby giving more juice for journalists and politicians to spit on these chemical gemstones?

Don't be a selfish dick, the best way for the truth to spread out is to spread it out, eventually the right people will find it.

 

[Just A Guy]

Sooo... you'll only leave a TR if this doesn't go well for you, thereby giving more juice for journalists and politicians to spit on these chemical gemstones?

Don't be a selfish dick, the best way for the truth to spread out is to spread it out, eventually the right people will find it.

You think so? I invite some of the more "prominent" members to voice their opinion on this one.

 

[kidklmx]

Not a "prominent member" by any means, but you could make some quick notes on the effects it has on you and your body so that we can get a much clearer picture on what this chemical subjectively does. Not that I agree with ZFCs comments though, narrative trip reports of people having a good experience are 9 out of 10 times far too boring, so why bother?