US Politics the 2025 trump presidency thread

[-=SS=-]

disobeying judges and arresting judges. what happened to rule of law? due process?

As I said earlier somewhere, if this problem hadn't been allowed to build to this point over decades by the border jumps, the bureaucrats, and the public who supported it, then we wouldn't be where we are. Same thing is going to happen to EU countries and the UK, it's only a matter of time.

If we'd had an honest conservation about it thirty fucking years ago and got serious about it then. But no. The politicians, media, and idiot public decided to play this delusional game where they believe ideology can defeat reality.

Telling you man, this is going to explode right across the EU, it's going to be way more brutal than what we're seeing in LA. And the people who cheered on this insanity will be the first ones to flip and demand the state quash the ensuing chaos with whatever means necessary.

 

[alasdairm]

what percentage of these people do you think actually fit the criteria/definition of someone genuinely seeking asylum.

i don't know.

but here in the u.s. there's a process. the president and his minions don't get to just point at anybody and deport them. and that's what's happening.

the current administration is deporting people - even u.s. citizens - without due process (which is guaranteed by the u.s. constitution). the current administration is deploying the military on the streets of a u.s. city. and they're employign palantir to gather personal data on u.s. citizens.

isn't this exactly the kind of government tyranny some 2nd-amendment and gun-toting bluelighters tell me their guns are for?

We have to draw the line somewhere out of self preservation, we can not just take on the whole world; and that question is never answered by the left

am i "the left"?

i can't speak for the left but i lean left and can answer your question.

i believe the u.k has to draw a line somewhere and can't accept an unlimited number of immigrants.

there you go

alasdair

 

[someguyontheinternet]

As I said earlier somewhere, if this problem hadn't been allowed to build to this point over decades by the border jumps, the bureaucrats, and the public who supported it, then we wouldn't be where we are. Same thing is going to happen to EU countries and the UK, it's only a matter of time.

If we'd had an honest conservation about it thirty fucking years ago and got serious about it then. But no. The politicians, media, and idiot public decided to play this delusional game where they believe ideology can defeat reality.

Telling you man, this is going to explode right across the EU, it's going to be way more brutal than what we're seeing in LA. And the people who cheered on this insanity will be the first ones to flip and demand the state quash the ensuing chaos with whatever means necessary.

which reality is that? the one you hear about on the news? on twitter? or have you personally observed immigrants committing rapes right in front of you?

immigrants aren't the ones raising rent

immigrants aren't suppressing wages

who is actually causing problems through exploitation?

 

[tryptakid]

Not really. Little enclaves and pockets of parallel cultures doesn't make it multicultural, that word gets thrown around like it actually has weight when it really doesn't. There is always the culture of a nation, and other little pockets can exist within it.. but there has never been actual multiculturalism.. it doesn't exist because it doesn't work. This is why national borders exist in the first place, it literally defines the boundaries of a cultural system. The dominant culture was always very much twinned with national identity.

National borders and nation states are a result of modernity. From wikipedia:

Beginning in the late 18th century, particularly with the French Revolution and the spread of the principle of popular sovereignty or self determination, the idea that "the people" should rule is developed by political theorists.<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism#cite_note-oxford_dict-10"><span>[</span>10<span>]</span></a> Three main theories have been used to explain the emergence of nationalism:

1. Primordialism developed alongside nationalism during the Romantic era and held that there have always been nations. This view has since been rejected by most scholars,<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism#cite_note-11"><span>[</span>11<span>]</span></a> who view nations as socially constructed and historically contingent.<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism#cite_note-Mylonas-12"><span>[</span>12<span>]</span></a><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism#cite_note-:12-9"><span>[</span>9<span>]</span></a> Perennialism, a softer version of primordialism which accepts that nations are modern phenomena but with long historical roots, is subject to academic debate.<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism#cite_note-13"><span>[</span>13<span>]</span></a>
2. Modernization theory, currently the most commonly accepted theory of nationalism,<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism#cite_note-14"><span>[</span>14<span>]</span></a> adopts a constructivist approach and proposes that nationalism emerged due to processes of modernization, such as industrialization, urbanization, and mass education, which made national consciousness possible.<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism#cite_note-Mylonas-12"><span>[</span>12<span>]</span></a><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism#cite_note-Deanna_Smith-15"><span>[</span>15<span>]</span></a> Proponents of this theory describe nations as "imagined communities" and nationalism as an "invented tradition" in which shared sentiment provides a form of collective identity and binds individuals together in political solidarity.<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism#cite_note-Mylonas-12"><span>[</span>12<span>]</span></a><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism#cite_note-Anderson-16"><span>[</span>16<span>]</span></a><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism#cite_note-17"><span>[</span>17<span>]</span></a>
3. Ethnosymbolism explains nationalism as a product of symbols, myths, and traditions, and is associated with the work of Anthony D. Smith.<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism#cite_note-oxford_dict-10"><span>[</span>10<span>]</span></a>

This isn't some inherent truth that has existed throughout time - it's a modern understanding of culture and the boundaries inherent to the admixture of identity, culture, politics, and other related ways of conceptualizing 'a people'. You speak as though it's a universal monolith and that isn't a view that is widely accepted, nor (in my opinion) is it healthy. I know we disagree on that so I'll not push further as I don't imagine you'll respond favorably to my read on this matter. We just see this issue differently.

It's guff saying we're multicultural or "a nation of immigrants". Total bollocks.

Most people in this country are a few generations removed from immigrants - My family on both sides came here 100 years ago or less, which is true for the vast majority of people I know and grew up around. There are areas of the US that have been widely settled for less than that amount of time. Areas of this country remained under indigenous autonomous rule before being forced out within that time frame as well. There are fusions of multiple immigrant groups creating music, cuisine, architecture, and normative behaviors that continue to evolve within wider american culture. Further, there are vastly different identifies that coexist within the US and that continue to evolve both in parallel and synergistically.

Calling my read foolish is disrespectful, knock it off.

There is more about a cultural identity than just seeing people as interchangeable tax revenue units, which is what we're being conditioned to accept these days (under the obfuscating banner of diversity and all the rest).

And I'm saying that identity is always in flux. I'm not talking about revenue units. I agree with you on this latter piece and it troubles me.

Cultural identity. True community. Family. Relationships. Friendships. All aspects that make up the cultural fabric, held together by shared values and experience, which have all been under systematic attack for decades now in order to destabilize the culture and make it ripe for subversion. The whole immigrant situation is just one wedge of several being used to break that fabric.

Culture has been resilient and progressive as evidenced by the ebbs and flows of human history. Cultures may die out while still leaving their mark on a society - Ionic columns on buildings that adorn streets named with latin-rooted names are within a stones throw of my home, next to restaurants serving korean/mexican fusion cuisine and that hosted st. patrick's day events. There are remnants and pieces of cultures that actively exist within my neighborhood while others died off 2000 years ago yet still remain alive in their influence on the community I live in.

 

[alasdairm]

very generally speaking, research tends to show that immigrants do not cause a disproportionate amount of crime compared to native populations. further, there tends to be no causal relationship between immigration and crime rates. there is even evidence to suggest that increased immigration can be associated with a decrease in crime rates.

for example:

Immigration and Crime: An International Perspective

"The association between immigration and crime has long been a subject of debate, and only recently have we encountered systematic empirical evidence on this issue. Data shows that immigrants, often younger, male, and less educated compared to natives, are disproportionately represented among offenders in numerous host countries. However, existing research, inclusive of our analysis of new international data, consistently indicates that immigration does not significantly impact local crime rates in these countries. Furthermore, recent studies underscore that obtaining legal status diminishes immigrants' involvement in criminal activities. Finally, we discuss potential explanations for the apparent incongruity between immigrants' overrepresentation among offenders and the null effect of immigration on crime rates." (my emphasis)

Has immigration really led to an increase in crime in Italy?

"Immigration has been a key topic in Italy’s election campaign, with several candidates arguing that the flow of people into the country during the migration crisis has increased the risk of crime. But has immigration really generated more crime in Italy? Drawing on data from the Italian National Institute of Statistics, Donato Di Carlo, Julia Schulte-Cloos and Giulia Saudelli illustrate that crime rates across Italian regions and the share of crimes committed by foreigners have both fallen significantly over the last decade." (my emphasis)

Do refugees impact crime? Causal evidence from large-scale refugee immigration to Germany

"Previous studies about the effect of immigration on crime show mixed results. Part of the literature finds the effects of immigration on crime in host countries to be close to zero in general...Other studies tend to conclude that immigration increases crime under certain circumstances, particularly if immigrants have poor prospects on the labor market or if they face labor market restrictions." (my emphasis)

obviously it's a complex issue but "immigrants cause crime" is both unnuanced and inaccurate.

alasdair

 

[alasdairm]

i'm acutely aware that i'm guilty of dragging this off topic but, to get it back on topic, it's abundantly clear that the trump administration is using immigrant and immigration fearmongering to defend questionable, and in many instances illegal, activity while also attempting to distract from other things they're doing.

alasdair

 

[-=SS=-]

which reality is that? the one you hear about on the news? on twitter? or have you personally observed immigrants committing rapes right in front of you?

I'm pretty sure I've told you I'm from the UK several times. Do you really want me to drag up some national news headlines for you? There's lots to choose from. There also happens to be riots going on right now in Ireland because two Romanian teenagers tried to rape a young girl. There's a plethora of stories of rape, assault, violence, and murder, here in the UK and across the EU from immigrants.

immigrants aren't the ones raising rent

immigrants aren't suppressing wages

who is actually causing problems through exploitation?

No one forced these people to come here and be exploited, if after all they fit the definition you all seem to be claiming as 'asylum seekers'. Right? So, in that case trying to just pin the blame on the bureaucrats is misleading because really it takes two to tango.

Which is why I have always blamed both sides of the equation. Those who facilitate it (government and public), and those who try their luck (the immigrants). Which is why I'm difficult to classify, because I think both sides are full of shit, whereas the left or right typically only choose to focus on one half of the equation.

 

[-=SS=-]

Cultures may die out while still leaving their mark on a society

Or, they may be forced to die out. Or at least broken down far enough to facilitate agendas - e.g. this is why Islamophobia is bollocks, British people (or Germans, Swedes, etc) should be within their rights to actively fight against a competing cultural system trying to insert itself.

Culture is fragile. England has changed beyond recognition, and we've lost so much to the point where natives aren't even sure any more what the hell our culture represents. Our leaders certainly don't seem to think it represents anything beyond soundbite platitudes while secretly, sometimes openly, despising the concept of the nation state and cultural processes that are an impediment to "progressive" ideologies.. such as community, family, friends.

Doesn't matter if immigrants make up 15% of the population. The majority of natives are the ones who should be getting first say, given they are the majority and therefore the ones whose energy truly holds up the entire enterprise, whose family lineage has forged that country to the point where half the fucking world wants a bite of the sandwich.

I want America to be America. England to be England. Mexico to be Mexico. Pakistan to, nah. Point is, there's a fabric worth preserving.. a rich and fertile soil that has taken generations to curate.. which could birth so much more than these regressive progressive ideological fantasies and trying to shove everyone together and do away with distinctions, despite the fact actual diversity is what makes the world an interesting place (mixing everyone together everywhere destroys that).

 

[someguyontheinternet]

I'm pretty sure I've told you I'm from the UK several times. Do you really want me to drag up some national news headlines for you? There's lots to choose from. There also happens to be riots going on right now in Ireland because two Romanian teenagers tried to rape a young girl. There's a plethora of stories of rape, assault, violence, and murder, here in the UK and across the EU from immigrants.

No one forced these people to come here and be exploited, if after all they fit the definition you all seem to be claiming as 'asylum seekers'. Right? So, in that case trying to just pin the blame on the bureaucrats is misleading because really it takes two to tango.

Which is why I have always blamed both sides of the equation. Those who facilitate it (government and public), and those who try their luck (the immigrants). Which is why I'm difficult to classify, because I think both sides are full of shit, whereas the left or right typically only choose to focus on one half of the equation.

as we have been over this before and you seem to have forgotten, I found my old post and I'll copy paste it here for you:


'The central argument of the ‘grooming gangs’ narrative is, in short, that a ‘disproportionate’ number of Asian/Muslim/Pakistani-heritage men are involved in grooming (mostly) white British girls for organised sexual abuse. These claims are often substantiated with reference to a spate of high-profile prosecutions of so-called ‘grooming gangs’ in towns and cities such as Rotherham, Rochdale, Derby, Telford, Oxford, Huddersfield and Newcastle. The offenders in question – and undoubtedly many more – have absolutely committed horrific crimes; this article is categorically not about denying their existence, belittling their harms or otherwise excusing the inexcusable. The term ‘grooming gangs’, however, is itself a spurious media construct and one that has been heavily racialised from the very start.3 ‘Grooming gangs’ simply do not correspond to established legal or social scientific categories and the various weak definitions offered up by proponents of this racialised narrative fail to delineate these offenders meaningfully from other groups of child sex offenders.4'

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0306396819895727

'“When you just focus on the brown guy, you’re telling girls: ‘Beware of the brown guy.’ You’re not telling them that they’re 40 times more likely in this country to be abused by a British White guy,” he said, citing the Centre of expertise on child sexual abuse (CSA Centre)’s most recent data on child sexual abuse in England and Wales that indicates 2% of perpetrators are of Pakistani backgrounds, whereas 88% are White. The dataset represents the three-quarters of cases where ethnicity was recorded.

But those facts are often drowned out by the “grooming gang” scandal, particularly in towns like Oldham, with larger than national average non-White populations and high rates of poverty.'

https://www.cnn.com/2025/02/06/uk/musk-uk-child-sex-abuse-gbr-intl-cmd/index.html

'When the far Right complains of ‘political correctness’ preventing sexual violence from being named and addressed as a distinctive issue of Muslim culture, it seems obvious enough that they are weaponising ‘free speech’ and co-opting the language of feminism to further their anti-Muslim agenda. But mainstream media and politicians, across the spectrum, too, perpetuate racialised narratives of sexual threat, which obscure the systemic nature of sexual violence, whilst at the same fuelling anti-Muslim racism. This in turn legitimises state authoritarianism, whilst absolving the state of its responsibility to provide adequate support services for vulnerable people and survivors of sexual violence.'

‘Asian grooming gangs’: media, state and the far Right - Institute of Race Relations

On International Women’s Day, Kay Stephens reflects on how the far Right and the mainstream co-opt a feminist stance for racist and anti-feminist ends, particularly around issues of sexual violence. In 2018, we witnessed an escalation in far-right demonstrations in the UK as a response to the...

irr.org.uk

 

[-=SS=-]

Yeah yeah, "it's not that bad because white people do it too".

 

[someguyontheinternet]

Yeah yeah, "it's not that bad because white people do it too".

that is a severe misrepresentation of the text contained in the post and the studies

immigrants commit LESS crime than natural born citizens. so if you're actually concerned about crime and want to solve it with deportation, perhaps natural born citizens should be deported instead as they commit FAR more crimes per capita? yes, adjusted for population natural born citizens always commit more crime than immigrants

this has been stated multiple times with numerous sources backing up these claims yet you're still ignoring that entirely. it appears as if you are not engaging in good faith

 

[notsmokeymcpot42088]

Are you near LA?

No luckily not. Generally a pretty peaceful area, pretty pro trump and very heavy handed LEO though.

And even with the genuine cases, I mean America is a bit different, the UK simply can not accommodate millions of extra bodies. We have to draw the line somewhere out of self preservation, we can not just take on the whole world; and that question is never answered by the left or political class, where the line actually is, at what point is it just suicide to keep on trying to cram more people into the life boat. You can't save everybody.

Also to be frank, I don't think we should either. Culturally it's foolish.

That is indeed a very UK/English attitude.

The point you quit letting people in is when there is no longer enough resources for everyone --- not when there is plenty to go around but 5 guys have all of em. (Hyperbole of course but you get it).

Once you declare "bring your tired huddled masses" (Brag about being a melting pot) you kinda gotta stand by that? I mean I know tearing the constitution and traditional values up and using it em as TP is in right now (and I don't know if that falls in the constitution, which is sad it is like 2-3 pages) -- Are we a country of principle or just a lot of talk.

Now please note how critical I am of the US before taking any offense -- we are the rabid dog. Don't get infected

isn't this exactly the kind of government tyranny some 2nd-amendment and gun-toting bluelighters tell me their guns are for?

Damn right it is. Prepping for fascism currently. Me going off half cocked with any weapon isn't going to help anything though. If there is a revolution I hypothetically will be in. (the guy that starts it dies slow and horribly historically though...)

 

[tryptakid]

Or, they may be forced to die out. Or at least broken down far enough to facilitate agendas - e.g. this is why Islamophobia is bollocks, British people (or Germans, Swedes, etc) should be within their rights to actively fight against a competing cultural system trying to insert itself.

Culture is fragile. England has changed beyond recognition, and we've lost so much to the point where natives aren't even sure any more what the hell our culture represents. Our leaders certainly don't seem to think it represents anything beyond soundbite platitudes while secretly, sometimes openly, despising the concept of the nation state and cultural processes that are an impediment to "progressive" ideologies.. such as community, family, friends.

Doesn't matter if immigrants make up 15% of the population. The majority of natives are the ones who should be getting first say, given they are the majority and therefore the ones whose energy truly holds up the entire enterprise, whose family lineage has forged that country to the point where half the fucking world wants a bite of the sandwich.

I want America to be America. England to be England. Mexico to be Mexico. Pakistan to, nah. Point is, there's a fabric worth preserving.. a rich and fertile soil that has taken generations to curate.. which could birth so much more than these regressive progressive ideological fantasies and trying to shove everyone together and do away with distinctions, despite the fact actual diversity is what makes the world an interesting place (mixing everyone together everywhere destroys that).

I'm sure the ancient greeks felt the same way as the bronze age collapse occurred, or Romans in the 3rd and 5th centuries as their government fell apart and their capital was sacked. Cultural relics have stood the test of time however, as latin became the foundation of languages, as architectural marvels remain intact throughout Western Europe and into the middle east, and roman history remains a vital part of the history of the west. Still, no one can stop the macrosystemic ebbs and flows that result in cultural rise and fall.

While your words are often viewed as hateful, narrow minded, and anti-progressive by some on this forum - I know that part of what informs your perspective is a deep and profound sadness for the loss of culture that you hold dear. I just want you to know that I do empathize with that, especially as I watch my own cultural memory become increasingly perverted by trashy displays of patriotism, xenophobia, reductionist thinking by those in power, and a suffocation of the vibrant multiculturalism that I knew and cherished as a younger person. Just as cultural preservation may attempt to prevent the influence of external factors on national cultural, so too can internal resistance to the changing needs of a dynamic civilization. America without immigration becomes isolated and disconnected from some of the unique characteristics of the American experiment (in my opinion). Our music, cuisine, art, and even the admixture of genetics and cultural identities from peoples around the world, all contribute to what I see as truly beautiful and relatively unique in the modern world. Still, there are people in the US who want to preserve their own notion of what American should be. In my view, it is the attempt to control these forces that will result, and has historically always resulted, in societal decay and collapse.

 

[alasdairm]

nice post.

in short, conservatism vs. progressivism?

alasdair

 

[-=SS=-]

While your words are often viewed as hateful, narrow minded, and anti-progressive by some on this forum - I know that part of what informs your perspective is a deep and profound sadness for the loss of culture that you hold dear.

It's not even that. I don't care for a lot of British traditions or cultural stuff, past or present - the human race in general feels alien to me most of the time. Waving flags never appealed to me, nor the remembrance poppy stuff, it always felt duplicitous even as a child.. I had the feeling we were failing to truly honour them by being better.

The greatest loss is the lost potential, the loss of momentum for increasing emotional, intellectual, and philosophical talent.. and even physical too these days, with young people burdened with toxicity from all angles. If you look at where we were just prior to WW1 and compare it to afterward WW2, we have been totally derailed as people. There was an upswing in ability, in potential, in promise for the future. People were rising out of drudgery and growing.

This is what I think a lot of the 'right' yearn for. It's not the cultural stuff they're really attracted to, they just can't articulate what it truly is. What it is, is this potential. Sounds nebulous, but if you go back even to 1950 and listen to the way people spoke, the difference in ability and even how people hold themselves is remarkable. We have sunk quite far and I don't think people understand it.

We're just in danger of debasing ourselves even further, is the problem. Again I don't really care about the surface level stuff. It would be great if we could all live in the USA or UK or whatever, like theoretically it doesn't bother me or what colour people are, the actual issue is that immigration (and many other issues) are serving this degenerative momentum we're caught in. And when it's gone, it's gone.. and with the level of technology at the fingertips of the elites now.. it would be a herculean task to ever rise back up to where we were. We will be serfs in perpetuity, not just economically, but in spirit as well.. because all these pressures are making people less healthy physically, emotionally, intellectually people are being stunted, and philosophically doesn't even register for a lot of people thanks to materialism.

We should be way more concerned about throwing the launchpad away than we are. It's tragic.

 

[tryptakid]

It's not even that. I don't care for a lot of British traditions or cultural stuff, past or present - the human race in general feels alien to me most of the time. Waving flags never appealed to me, nor the remembrance poppy stuff, it always felt duplicitous even as a child.. I had the feeling we were failing to truly honour them by being better.

The greatest loss is the lost potential, the loss of momentum for increasing emotional, intellectual, and philosophical talent.. and even physical too these days, with young people burdened with toxicity from all angles. If you look at where we were just prior to WW1 and compare it to afterward WW2, we have been totally derailed as people. There was an upswing in ability, in potential, in promise for the future. People were rising out of drudgery and growing.

This is what I think a lot of the 'right' yearn for. It's not the cultural stuff they're really attracted to, they just can't articulate what it truly is. What it is, is this potential. Sounds nebulous, but if you go back even to 1950 and listen to the way people spoke, the difference in ability and even how people hold themselves is remarkable. We have sunk quite far and I don't think people understand it.

We're just in danger of debasing ourselves even further, is the problem. Again I don't really care about the surface level stuff. It would be great if we could all live in the USA or UK or whatever, like theoretically it doesn't bother me or what colour people are, the actual issue is that immigration (and many other issues) are serving this degenerative momentum we're caught in. And when it's gone, it's gone.. and with the level of technology at the fingertips of the elites now.. it would be a herculean task to ever rise back up to where we were. We will be serfs in perpetuity, not just economically, but in spirit as well.. because all these pressures are making people less healthy physically, emotionally, intellectually people are being stunted, and philosophically doesn't even register for a lot of people thanks to materialism.

We should be way more concerned about throwing the launchpad away than we are. It's tragic.

I'd go so far as to argue that I recall a time in my own lifetime (1990s) where people seemed hopeful and optimistic about the future - where things seemed to be on an upswing intellectually, culturally, and humanely. From my perspective, 9/11 was the departure point for the cultural trajectory that I felt like I was born into, from the cultural trajectory that occured. The wars in Iraq/Afghanistan and the move away from economic regulation in favor of corporate autonomy, all while cheap products and deceptively cheap credit flooded the US from China. We numbed our pain with plastic, opioids, and internet while our culture became performative and subsumed by capital. There was a hopefulness in the US when I was finishing high school that I have not felt in a long time.

I guess I see the same ills that you see, I just see immigration as culprit that is often used as a boogeyman by those in power to obfuscate their own complicitness in social problems. Trump and Elon have done innumerably more overt and covert damage to the US than any immigrant group ever has. They siphon wealth into crypto, they sew division as a conduit for their own power, and they use immigration as a distraction to fascilitate threats of violent oppression.

 

[-=SS=-]

I'd go so far as to argue that I recall a time in my own lifetime (1990s) where people seemed hopeful and optimistic about the future - where things seemed to be on an upswing intellectually, culturally, and humanely. From my perspective, 9/11 was the departure point for the cultural trajectory that I felt like I was born into, from the cultural trajectory that occured. The wars in Iraq/Afghanistan and the move away from economic regulation in favor of corporate autonomy, all while cheap products and deceptively cheap credit flooded the US from China. We numbed our pain with plastic, opioids, and internet while our culture became performative and subsumed by capital. There was a hopefulness in the US when I was finishing high school that I have not felt in a long time.

I guess I see the same ills that you see, I just see immigration as culprit that is often used as a boogeyman by those in power to obfuscate their own complicitness in social problems. Trump and Elon have done innumerably more overt and covert damage to the US than any immigrant group ever has. They siphon wealth into crypto, they sew division as a conduit for their own power, and they use immigration as a distraction to fascilitate threats of violent oppression.

But the thing is, it is a massive issue. All this left-right, Trump Biden, Tory Labour, theatrics that gets put forward doesn't mean it isn't a big issue. People love to rag on the right about being knuckle dragging racists or whatever but that is just projection to excuse their own wilful blindness to the tremendous damage immigration is doing across the board. It's not the only issue, absolutely not, but it can't be ignored or waved away as just the paranoid frothing of right-leaning people. That binary attitude is precisely the problem, and precisely what the ruling class love because it obfuscates the whole thing.

Something that gets lost in these discussions is the fact that virtually nobody ever tables the idea that, "hey, maybe if somehow we made their home countries better places then they wouldn't all even want to pile in here". Besides it damages their countries as much as ours by splitting up community in pursuit of money, or depriving that nation of skills (doctors for example).

The answer isn't anything either the left or right is proposing in my view. We don't need these people here e.g. in the UK they always use the argument that the NHS would collapse without them.. when in reality if the government wasn't so fucking stingy and paid proper wages and invested in the youth it wouldn't be an issue. We shouldn't have to resort to naked force to evict these people either i.e. they should not have been incentivized to come here in the first place, and their home nations should have been good enough that they'd never want to leave in the first place.

Unfortunately it comes down to self-preservation at this point. I don't hate these people, but I don't want them here either given our system is competition based and that just makes it unnecessarily harder for those of us already here. Particularly young people, like what the fuck is going to happen for my age group and younger in regards to housing and pensions. There's 10 million people in the UK who shouldn't be here, think of how much housing that is that could aid young people in starting families (fuck, even just living rather than existing).

Like we can't ignore immigration. Both sides are focusing on it in a way that that only benefits the ruling class in the end. It should never have reached this point in the first place either.

 

[someguyontheinternet]

But the thing is, it is a massive issue. All this left-right, Trump Biden, Tory Labour, theatrics that gets put forward doesn't mean it isn't a big issue. People love to rag on the right about being knuckle dragging racists or whatever but that is just projection to excuse their own wilful blindness to the tremendous damage immigration is doing across the board. It's not the only issue, absolutely not, but it can't be ignored or waved away as just the paranoid frothing of right-leaning people. That binary attitude is precisely the problem, and precisely what the ruling class love because it obfuscates the whole thing.

Something that gets lost in these discussions is the fact that virtually nobody ever tables the idea that, "hey, maybe if somehow we made their home countries better places then they wouldn't all even want to pile in here". Besides it damages their countries as much as ours by splitting up community in pursuit of money, or depriving that nation of skills (doctors for example).

The answer isn't anything either the left or right is proposing in my view. We don't need these people here e.g. in the UK they always use the argument that the NHS would collapse without them.. when in reality if the government wasn't so fucking stingy and paid proper wages and invested in the youth it wouldn't be an issue. We shouldn't have to resort to naked force to evict these people either i.e. they should not have been incentivized to come here in the first place, and their home nations should have been good enough that they'd never want to leave in the first place.

Unfortunately it comes down to self-preservation at this point. I don't hate these people, but I don't want them here either given our system is competition based and that just makes it unnecessarily harder for those of us already here. Particularly young people, like what the fuck is going to happen for my age group and younger in regards to housing and pensions. There's 10 million people in the UK who shouldn't be here, think of how much housing that is that could aid young people in starting families (fuck, even just living rather than existing).

Like we can't ignore immigration. Both sides are focusing on it in a way that that only benefits the ruling class in the end. It should never have reached this point in the first place either.

what evidence do you have that immigration is doing the things you claim?

 

[-=SS=-]

what evidence do you have that immigration is doing the things you claim?

I can't speak for the USA, but I can speak for the UK (and many EU countries) because I'm very familiar with it all. To even ask that question in our context is ridiculous at this point, absolutely ridiculous. That's not hyperbolic or inflammatory, it is just literal fact at this point.

I mean where would you like to start? The sexual crimes is a big one; Ireland has had riots for a couple of nights now because of that. Or how about violent crimes, again Ireland had riots due to that. Southport and other terrorist attacks like the Manchester Arena bombing. The rape gangs of course. Then there's the crimes of those natures that happen to ordinary people that never make the news. I found out recently that there was a migrant hotel near me where one pulled a meat cleaver on people, severely inuring them, and he got jailed.

That's just the extreme stuff. How about demographics? London, Birmingham, and probably other major cities have seen dramatic decreases in white British people. London it has halved from 70% in 2001 to 35% in 2021. That is ridiculous. Then there's council housing and who gets prioritized.

Like I could go on but you'll never ever be convinced by anything I say so what's the fucking point? Anyone here in the UK knows, it's plain as day. Same story happening across multiple EU nations.

You could try asking a Swede, German, or French person how they feel about it. Maybe you'll get a different answer that might sway you..

 

[someguyontheinternet]

I can't speak for the USA, but I can speak for the UK (and many EU countries) because I'm very familiar with it all. To even ask that question in our context is ridiculous at this point, absolutely ridiculous. That's not hyperbolic or inflammatory, it is just literal fact at this point.

I mean where would you like to start? The sexual crimes is a big one; Ireland has had riots for a couple of nights now because of that. Or how about violent crimes, again Ireland had riots due to that. Southport and other terrorist attacks like the Manchester Arena bombing. The rape gangs of course. Then there's the crimes of those natures that happen to ordinary people that never make the news. I found out recently that there was a migrant hotel near me where one pulled a meat cleaver on people, severely inuring them, and he got jailed.

That's just the extreme stuff. How about demographics? London, Birmingham, and probably other major cities have seen dramatic decreases in white British people. London it has halved from 70% in 2001 to 35% in 2021. That is ridiculous. Then there's council housing and who gets prioritized.

Like I could go on but you'll never ever be convinced by anything I say so what's the fucking point? Anyone here in the UK knows, it's plain as day. Same story happening across multiple EU nations.

You could try asking a Swede, German, or French person how they feel about it. Maybe you'll get a different answer that might sway you..

can you cite any sources to back up your claims? to be frank I did ask if you had evidence to back up your claims but instead of presenting evidence you just made more claims without evidence to back them up