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US Politics The 2021 Former President Trump Thread - I look very much forward to showing my financials, because they are huge.

time will tell.

i understand your frustration @JessFR. i disagree with trump supporters saying that he did not mock a disabled reporter but i try hard to understand that they look at that footage and do not see the president mocking a disabled man.

i heard everything he said on the pussy grabbing tape. it makes my skin crawl and it's hard for me to understand how that might have sounded to a woman. or how a parent could explain to their teenage daughter who heard the tape, and explain it away as harmless locker-room talk. but i try hard to understand that many trump supporters think it was just that.

but i am struggling, really struggling, to understand how anybody could look at the evidence of that georgia call - especially in the context of the earlier call he made to brian kemp - and not see a man trying to chance the result of an election. but, i also know that's on me.

i read the transcript, @birdup.snaildown. i do you the simple courtesy of not making assumptions about you. it would be delightful if you could offer me the same simple courtesy?

alasdair
 
alasdairm said:
i heard everything he said on the pussy grabbing tape. it makes my skin crawl and it's hard for me to understand how that might have sounded to a woman.
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I can only speak for myself, but I suspect most women, the ones who aren't part of that women for trump group that is, (and I couldn't even begin to speculate what goes through their heads, I can only suppose it's the same thinking that goes through women who support religions or cultures or belief systems that treat them like objects or property) just sighed.

I've heard or seen similar disgusting or offensive shit from men countless times. I doubt there are many women who haven't. The only difference is trumps the first I've seen go on to become president of the United States and gain such a large number of cult like worshipers.

Frankly this was one thing where I'm saddened to say I was wrong. You see, I naively thought when it came out he said that and a whole bunch of women accused him of sexual abuse, that it would do him serious political damage. I underestimated the number of disgusting voters out there who secretly or otherwise either agree or don't care.

You certainly wouldn't make that mistake again today, especially not now that trump has emboldened the assholes of the world and set back years of progress.
 
Xorkoth said:
Twilight zone... that's where we're living. Where two people read or hear the same exact thing and come to conclusions that are seemingly the conclusions of someone who saw something totally different. It's disturbing.
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Yes it is. But make no mistake. This isn't a case of different opinions or multiple subjective interpretations.

One side are in a world of willful self delusion, and the other is not. And it's trump world that is the deluded side.

That's why the courts wouldn't help them. That's why trump lost and all they could do to keep their delusions alive is cry fraud.

And believing that the president asking an election official to "find" exactly the votes he needs to win is just "asking for data" is a perfect example of it.

"fake news" is a mental self defense used to get rid of the problems of selfdelusion rubbing up too hard against reality.
 
@alasdairm

For the record, I didn't like Trump making fun of that disabled person and I didn't like the pussy grabbing comment either. I think he's an offensive and unpleasant person. I've never said otherwise. I also think the way he treated the so-called election fraud stuff was certifiably insane. He lost to Biden. I never disputed the result of the 2020 election... But none of that has any bearing on the conversation.

You picked two sentences out of a fifteen page transcript. I assumed you didn't read the entire thing, because (in my opinion) you are taking those sentences out of context. You can assume things about me all you like. I'm not going to not make assumptions out of courtesy. You're a big boy. I'm sure you'll be okay.

Burnt Offerings said:
To the rest of us simpletons it just sounded like the president leaning on some officials in order to get the result he wanted
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He was certainly pressuring them too much for my liking, but he was pressuring them to allow his team access to data and increased freedoms to conduct fraud investigations. He wasn't pressuring them to add votes to his count. Not that such a thing is beyond him ethically. It just wouldn't work. You can't add votes. They need to be accounted for. If you read the transcript, he (and his team) repeatedly requested access to data and requested signature verification, etc. If you take sentences out of context, I understand how it might seem like he was requesting electoral fraud but - well - that's the problem with taking things out of context... especially with Trump.

The closest he gets in that conversation to outright saying something that might be illegal was his thinly veiled threats about upcoming elections and criminal charges being applied to the secretary for taking part in electoral fraud. That was unpleasant. He is an unpleasant man, but that doesn't mean he was asking for votes to be fabricated.

JessFR said:
I can only suppose it's the same thinking that goes through women who support religions or cultures or belief systems that treat them like objects or property
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That's funny. When you repeatedly described Trump supporters as disgusting earlier and said "how dare you" to me for supposedly supporting him throughout this discussion, I thought to myself - I wonder if she would describe members of a particular religion disgusting.

You're not going to hurt my feelings. You have a tendency to get super emotional and lash out viciously against people during online political discussions. I don't take it personally anymore. But, I'd prefer it if you try and keep your cool and not describe Trump supporters as disgusting. If you're going to frequently participate in a Trump thread online, you're probably going to encounter people with opinions about Trump. At the end of the day, they are just opinions. Calling people disgusting isn't particularly respectful... and it's honestly not worth letting this stuff upset you so much. Your opinions don't upset me in the slightest.
 
JessFR said:
Yes it is. But make no mistake. This isn't a case of different opinions or multiple subjective interpretations.

One side are in a world of willful self delusion, and the other is not. And it's trump world that is the deluded side.

That's why the courts wouldn't help them. That's why trump lost and all they could do to keep their delusions alive is cry fraud.
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I never cried fraud.

I'm not blindly pro-Trump but I'm not blindly anti-Trump either.

Nobody has made any effort to explain to me what I'm missing about the conversation. I explained my perspective in detail. Burnt Offering made a smug comment. You went nuts and started typing in capital letters. alasdairm started pussy grabbing tangents.

I've changed my mind (and admitted I'm wrong) on this forum before.

If you could be bothered having a discussion, rather than calling me disgusting and telling me I'm wilfully ignorant, I'm happy to listen to your point of view. Perhaps I am missing something. I've left that open as a possibility from the beginning and repeatedly asked you to tell me what exactly I'm missing. Everybody has blind spots. Even you.

The ball is in your court.
 
birdup.snaildown said:
You're not going to hurt my feelings. You have a tendency to get super emotional and lash out viciously against people during online political discussions. I don't take it personally anymore. But, I'd prefer it if you try and keep your cool and not describe Trump supporters as disgusting. If you're going to frequently participate in a Trump thread online, you're probably going to encounter people with opinions about Trump.
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Yes, this is true. I know I have a flaw where I have difficulty keeping my emotions in check, and it's gotten harder over the past year with covid and being repeatedly faced with the real world consequences of a lot of these political beliefs.

Nevertheless it's probably true to say it doesn't serve anybody including myself to lose my cool. For what it's worth, it's a personality flaw that I am aware of and try to keep under control to greater or lesser effectiveness.

I'll deal with replying to the rest of what you said tomorrow I'm going to bed soon. Lack of sleep also messes with my emotions.
 
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How have Trump’s trade wars affected Rust Belt jobs?​


"...with Trump’s tariff tantrums and a lot of his other very erratic economic actions and economic tweets, economic threats, he introduced a lot of uncertainty into the global economy and into the U.S. economies. That has led to lower investment. I mean, it’s very evident in all the charts that investment in the U.S. has been less than it was under the Obama administration. For example, in Michigan, the auto firms’ investment declined by 29 percent over the three full years of Trump’s presidency compared to the last three years of Obama’s presidency. Well, when you look at all of these factors together, it affected overall job growth in Michigan, not only in manufacturing, which began to slow in 2017 and 2018. Job creation in Michigan plunged in 2019. Now, it has basically collapsed. It’s down 360,000 from when Trump took office."
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www.brookings.edu

How have Trump’s trade wars affected Rust Belt jobs?

David Dollar and Sandra Polaski analyze how President Trump's tariffs and trade wars have affected workers in America's Rust Belt.
www.brookings.edu www.brookings.edu

 
alasdairm said:
yes, Ii chose to highlight those
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Out of context, they misrepresent the conversation. Kind of like how you said he called white supremacists fine people earlier.

alasdairm said:
i know i can. but i don't (or try very hard not to). out of basic respect.
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You're really not that respectful. You might try very hard not to make assumptions (I kind of doubt it, you often lump Trump supporters together and assign them a hive personality) but you certainly don't seem to try at all to not mock people or make sarcastic comments. Personally, I find the latter to be more disrespectful... but to each their own. You can be disrespectful. I'm a big boy. I can take it.

alasdairm said:
i know it doesn't. i was using those things to illustrate my point to jess.
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I will allow it.
 
Senate voted to acquit Trump 57-43 in his impeachment trial. The number of votes needed for a guilty verdict was 67. Seven Republicans broke ranks and voted guilty.

www.wsj.com

Senate Votes to Acquit Trump in Impeachment Trial

The Senate voted to acquit former President Donald Trump on the charge he incited an insurrection at the Capitol, capping a weeklong impeachment trial fueled by his efforts to hold on to the White House after losing the election.
www.wsj.com www.wsj.com
 
McConnell voted to acquit and then called Trump guilty. Then he leaned into the argument that Trump isn’t eligible for impeachment as a private citizen.

McConnell unloads on Trump: 'Morally responsible' for provoking mob​

Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) on Saturday unleashed blistering criticism of former President Trump, blaming him for sparking the attack on the Capitol while also explaining why he didn't vote for a conviction.

McConnell also suggested that Trump could face criminal prosecution for his actions.

"There's no question, none, that President Trump is practically and morally responsible for provoking the events of the day. No question about it. The people that stormed this building believed they were acting on the wishes and instructions of their president," McConnell said.

"And having that belief was a foreseeable consequence of the growing crescendo of false statements, conspiracy theories and reckless hyperbole, which the defeated president kept shouting into the largest megaphone on the Earth," McConnell added.

McConnell's remarks came after the Senate fell short of the 67 votes needed to convict Trump. Though McConnell voted to acquit him, arguing it fell outside the Senate's jurisdiction, his remarks are a stinging rebuke of Trump's actions and rhetoric.

McConnell said the mob breached the Capitol because it was fed "wild falsehoods" by Trump, who was "angry he had lost an election."

McConnell, like most Senate Republicans, refused to acknowledge for weeks that President Biden had won the election. But he publicly congratulated Biden on the floor in mid-December after the Electoral College certified the victory.

McConnell marked the day as when Trump "opened up a new chapter of wilder and more unfounded claims."

"The leader of the free world cannot spend weeks thundering that shadowy forces are stealing our country and then feign surprise," the GOP leader said, adding that Trump "seemed determined to either overturn the voters decision or else torch our institutions on the way out."

Trump's legal team defended his actions on Jan. 6, when he repeated false claims that the election was "stolen" and encouraged his supporters to march on the Capitol just as former Vice President Mike Pence and lawmakers were counting the Electoral College votes.

Trump's team also argued that the former president did not realize that Pence was in danger.

McConnell rejected those claims, noting that attack played out on live television.

"We know that he was watching the same live television as the rest of us. A mob was assaulting the Capitol in his name. ... The president did not act swiftly. He did not do his job. He didn't take steps so federal law he could be faithfully executed and order restored," McConnell said.

But the GOP leader also said that impeaching Trump falls outside the Senate's jurisdiction because Trump is no longer in office. McConnell voted twice previously to try to declare the trial unconstitutional, an argument that has been rejected by a swath of legal scholars.

Though the House impeached Trump while he was still in office, the Senate trial didn't start until after Biden was sworn in. Senate Majority Leader Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.) tried to get McConnell to bring the Senate back into session early to start the trial before Trump left office, but the GOP leader shot down the request.


"The question is moot because former President Trump is constitutionally not eligible," McConnell said.

McConnell, however, hinted that Trump could still face legal repercussions.

"President Trump is still liable for everything he did while he was in office, as an ordinary citizen, unless the statute of limitations has run. ... Didn't get away with anything yet," McConnell said.
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