Election 2020 The 2020 Candidates: Right, Left and Center!

[Xorkoth]

So why are there like 2,001 challengers in the Dem field?

Because the Democratic party is a dumpster fire right now.

We've had lots of cheerleaders for the civil rights movement. The more important thing is the resurrection of the US economy, reduction of national and state debts, and climbing out of the shit hole country we've become.

I agree we need to prevent ourselves from sliding further into a shithole. The way to do that is by making sure we don't succumb to toxic nationalism and we start spending the wealth we have and generate on things to raise the people back up again. Rather than fall into hatred while becoming enslaved to corporations, we need to dismiss this wave of fear while rebuilding the middle class. If people feel secure again, the need to blame "others" will start to disappear again. Money isn't even based on gold or anything physical anymore, it's not like "oops the money ran out" or "oops we only have a trillion left". We should stop wasting money but the answer to that isn't to cut taxes and leave everyone to somehow fend for themselves in an imaginary Libertarian paradise where no one pays taxes and the wealthy selflessly provide infrastructure work and everyone buys into private schools and so on, the answer is to put the money where it should go and extract it from those it should be extracted from (ie, all of us, with a higher proportion coming from those who hurt from it the least). Rebuild our public education, provide health care for people paid for by their taxes like every other civilized nation (almost), make higher education more affordable to those who seek it, and quit structuring society to serve a few. The reason I like Bernie is that these are the things he espouses, and I have no reason to think he's being insincere.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

we start spending the wealth we have

We tried that for so many R and D presidencies, tax plans, etc. All sorts of super majorities or lack thereof over the years. We're in a massive deficit. There is no more wealth to spend; this is why the rest of the world hates us, because we will practically have to take everyone who makes less than $1 USD per day, and take half their income in order to keep pumping MORE wealth into a nation with a 20 trillion deficit. Totally outrageous.

I wish AOC could do math, though it is forgivable for Sanders to not care as he's rich as fuck and can easily take the impact of finding himself in a greater tax bracket. There aren't $20 trillion more dollars to dig ourselves out of this hole immediately, let alone bankroll a $40 trillion New Green Deal and/or medicare/college for all, or whatever the price tags were on these Fabergé easter eggs. Easter eggs are supposed to be PLEASANT surprises, guys.

Money isn't even based on gold or anything physical anymore, it's not like "oops the money ran out" or "oops we only have a trillion left"

This is a common misconception. Money is based on something. The going rate for exchange of goods, and its relative purchasing power compared to itself and other currencies over time. Look at hyper-inflation disasters, and countries with a poorly performing currency. That's not what we want for the US. The poor have the most to lose if they can't afford a loaf of bread. The rich will always be able to withstand hyperinflation or a higher tax bracket.

where no one pays taxes

We are living in a world where CORPORATIONS AND THE RICH, i.e. Amazon, Netflix, DONALD J. TRUMP pay no federal income taxes. We need to destroy the illegal organization that is the IRS, and make CORPORATIONS pay their fair share, similar to the 35% rates Obama had, and eliminate personal income taxes entirely.

The inability for people to grow a pair and bully the corporations back into line is strictly why people like tathra believe in communism. This is a failing of American-brand centrism; for Obama was no leftist. If the government DID REGULATIONS CORRECTLY, which they have IN THE PAST when the R's and D's were willing to work on each other and not fall into clickbait singularities of modern internationalist politics, we'd have worked ourselves past most of these growing pains.

You cannot in all seriousness really believe that PERSONAL INCOME TAXES are justifiable in a world where multi-billion or 1 trillion valued corporations pay NO FEDERAL TAXES, and neither do people like DJT, do you? That seems like a neo-conservative Republican ideal if there ever was one.

make higher education more affordable to those who seek it, and quit structuring society to serve a few

HARD pass. The rest of your post had great ideas but I felt I had to pick it apart for non-leftist perspectives and to hopefully get the US out of this shit hole one day.

 

[tathra]

So why are there like 2,001 challengers in the Dem field? "Smell them by the hair" Biden is surely going to shake things up. #entitlement #privilege

because establishment democrats fucking hate their progressive base, and liberals are generally fascist sympathizers. the US is a one party state masquerading as a two party one; regulatory capture is an intended feature of capitalism, and they know that the gravy train will end if anyone other than right wing conservative authoritarians has political representation, so they're more than willing to sabotage bernie and do everything they can to keep him from being their nominee, because he's guaranteed to win, same as he was in 2016, and that'll mean they'll have to start actually representing their progressive base or be primaried by someone who will

 

[mal3volent]

Bernie really did kill at that Fox News townhall. I loved watching him annihilate the two hosts most of all.

 

[Xorkoth]

You cannot in all seriousness really believe that PERSONAL INCOME TAXES are justifiable in a world where multi-billion or 1 trillion valued corporations pay NO FEDERAL TAXES, and neither do people like DJT, do you? That seems like a neo-conservative Republican ideal if there ever was one.

I don't. I think corporations need to pay their fair share and it is one of the biggest problems in our society that they don't. I just think it's nonsense to say that individuals should pay 0 income tax. I know Libertarians like to say we should have no income tax and the government should provide no services for us and we should take care of ourselves but I think it's naive at best to think that would work at all. I have absolutely no problem paying income tax if it means that money is being used to better the lives of the people, including myself. Health care... I pay for health care now, AND I pay taxes. I want my taxes (and the taxes of the corporations) to go towards roads, bridges, schools, health care, social safety nets, social security, and all the things that help a society to be successful and robust.

HARD pass. The rest of your post had great ideas but I felt I had to pick it apart for non-leftist perspectives and to hopefully get the US out of this shit hole one day.

Why are you opposed to making higher education more affordable to those who desire it? I'm not talking about free college, I'm just saying people should be able to go get higher education without being in debt for 10+ years. Used to be people could work part-time and pay their way through college. A lot of people don't want or need college and that's fine and will always be the case, but a lot of people should be able to go to college, because we need skilled people to work in many areas. Those people should not have to be in debt for potentially the rest of their lives just to do that. I mean yeah, you become a doctor, or an engineer, you pay it off afterwards, no problem. But what if you want to be a teacher? Teachers make jack shit, how long is a teacher gonna be in debt after college? And therefore you end up with less people who might make great teachers even trying to be teachers. And this is (part of the reason) why we suck so much in primary education anymore, which is a big part of why we're such a "shithole country" (in your words).

The inability for people to grow a pair and bully the corporations back into line is strictly why people like tathra believe in communism.

Basically agreed here.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

The US is not a one party state.

Bernie was not guaranteed to win. Otherwise he would have commanded more than 45% of the primary. Similar to the O’Rourke defeat except O’Rourke had a harder time garnering so much of the vote because TEXAS.

Shadow; most of your post needs me to respond in depth. The US should definitely provide services like food stamp programs, firefighters and the courts, libraries, public museums, state parks. It’s stuff like public education and a public police force that are largely concepts lost on me.

 

[tathra]

I wish AOC could do math

jfc, she has a fucking degree in economics, she's better than you at math by several orders of magnitude

 

[tathra]

The inability for people to grow a pair and bully the corporations back into line is strictly why people like tathra believe in communism.

yet another thing you couldn't be more wrong about. capitalism is an inherently authoritarian, unsustainable, and unstable economic system which relies entirely on extortion and inevitably leads to regulatory capture and plutocracy, and then fascism as it starts cannibalizing itself. communists support communism because it's decentralized, democratic, doesn't cause its own collapse on a regular basis, doesn't promote sociopathy, etcetc. you might not be able to understand a worldview that isn't built upon authoritarianism, but i can assure you that nobody but wannabe dictators want systems that are built upon totalitarianism and dictatorship, and nobody but extortionists and rent-seeking leeches want an economic system built around extortion and rent seeking, which rewards people who do absolutely nothing but steal from others solely because they were lucky enough to be born into wealth or win the lottery like bezos and others

heh, and if workers did "grow a pair" and start beating capitalists to death in front of their families again you'd be among the first to denounce the savagery of people who are only acting in self defense

 

[Xorkoth]

I agree with you tathra, more or less, except I don't believe that capitalism is inherently predatory. I think ideal capitalism can be set up in such a way as to truly compensate fairly, allow people to own their own housing, have safeguards in place to prevent against power consolidation, etc. Communism, when looked at in its ideal form, is beautiful, as is capitalism. The problem is, when is any system ever implemented in its ideal form? Never. If we rose up, murdered all the "capitalists" (which is pretty much fucking everyone, or at the very least, it's a REALLY slippery slope trying to define who to murder) and implemented communism, do you really honestly believe people wouldn't corrupt it? What would make this attempt better than other attempts in history?

But for sure, our implementation of capitalism is fucked. But if you look at communism, there still needs to be some way of enforcing the system. People who are accountable to (and subordinate to) other people. The potential for abuse of power. It's a pipe dream (but a nice one I wish I could believe) that people would benevolently self-organize for any but the shortest of time periods, before some people started corrupting the system.

 

[tathra]

ggovernmental and economic systems are merely tools and can be used or misused however the wielder wants. some tools are easier to misuse than others though, and more likely to cause greater harm. its important to understand the strengths and weaknesses, the nuances and quirks, of one's tools to help in selecting the appropriate tool to use in any given situation. what one should never do is double down and dig in and insist that your preferred tool is perfect and flawless and simply needs to be used more and harder when it's already pushed to its breaking point

 

[Captain.Heroin]

Communism has proven to be just as totalitarian as any other method of governing. In fact DPRK seems to be the worst of them all.

Your ideas are entirely lost on me. Communism is not democratic.

I would rather be put to death by the state in a world with billionaires than die in freedom in a world you describe. I happen to trust the state (read:nation) I live in and do not fear this. But I could accept it.

The war on drugs is proof that ANYONE AND EVERYONE wants to be rich, powerful, money-laden and in control. Otherwise we would have run out of drug dealers MANY years ago. Please get your head out of the sand.

Products and profit over people will prove to be more productive and stable and righteous over time. We need not throw the world away to feed and clothe and house 7 billion people who are already still alive today.

 

[tathra]

Communism has proven to be just as totalitarian as any other method of governing. In fact DPRK seems to be the worst of them all

tankies are not representive of anti-capitalist economics. authoritarianism is evil and never acceptable; authcoms are not comrades.

anti-capitalism is not a rigid, centralized, homogeneous, hierarchical and dictatorial system like capitalism, it's diverse, heterogeneous, decentralized, and democratic. you're so locked in and indoctrinated by capitalism that you can't even conceive a system that isn't built on the same structures and concepts. authoritarian communism is all you're able to understand because it's the most similar to capitalism, and thats why it's the worst implementation

 

[Captain.Heroin]

I can. I have read about supply side economics. I have pondered deeply about what might happen when the state can micro- and macro-manage the economy to such a severe extent. There can be horrific outcomes, like < $0.01 USD cost for the cheapest pack of cigarettes in DPRK. What if the state were to legalize and minmax the price of all recreational substances to be as affordable as possible?

What if this were done for land, for food? How quickly would the world be consumed and left empty?

There are supposed to be classes to society. Money does not make anyone happy. They're just possessions and you can't take them with you into the afterlife. I'm alright with not having much in this world. I just don't feel the need to drag EVERYONE down to "my level".

 

[tathra]

what might happen when the state can micro- and macro-manage the economy to such a severe extent.

you're still stuck in capitalism. if the means of production are owned by a single individual or entity, that's capitalism. nationalizing a business means the state is now the individual which owns it. state capitalism is still capitalism.

under socialism the workers of a corporation collectively co-own it, and communism goes a step further in that the public collectively co-own all corporations. like i keep saying, decentralized and democratized, in contrast to the centralized and concentrated power that defines capitalism and similar authoritarian and dictatorial systems

 

[Captain.Heroin]

Have you ever worked with people who were ... lacking, for better choice of words.... in the brains dept? Or perhaps irresponsible with money?

More hands in the cookie jar = worse for everyone.

 

[tathra]

why do you hate democracy

 

[Xorkoth]

There are supposed to be classes to society.

Just because it has generally been so since the advent of agriculture doesn't mean it's "supposed" to be that way. The fact that it is points to the inherent flaw in humanity, that of the regular occurrence of sociopathic power mongering, than it does to an inherent property of civilization.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

Fully disagree and I would type up a much longer reply if I had the time.

Look at far-right and far-left attempts to do this. They have all failed.

The best you can hope for is virtual elimination of homelessness and available healthcare/education for everybody. Some European countries have accomplished this.

 

[tathra]

The best you can hope for is....

that kind of defeatist attitude is a self-fulfilling prophecy

 

[Captain.Heroin]

Life isn’t as absolutist all-or-nothing like you may want it to be.