JessFR
Bluelight Crew
They might well get rid of their nukes. That's probably what they're for. Getting rid of. Then they'll make more and get rid of them again. That's their purpose.
The 2018 Trump Presidency thread
- Thread starter swilow
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They might well get rid of their nukes. That's probably what they're for. Getting rid of. Then they'll make more and get rid of them again. That's their purpose.
how can people put any faith in what's said by this administration? i know trump fans love it when they hear what they want to hear but how can you believe any of it?
we were told his doctor claimed trump was "the healthiest individual ever elected". turns out trump wrote that.
then he didn't know anything about paying a prostitute with whom he allegedly had an affair hush money. then he did. then he didn't again.
they can't even get their own story straight!
alasdair
we were told his doctor claimed trump was "the healthiest individual ever elected". turns out trump wrote that.
then he didn't know anything about paying a prostitute with whom he allegedly had an affair hush money. then he did. then he didn't again.
they can't even get their own story straight!
alasdair
zephyr
Ex-Bluelighter
Look mate.
I had to log in here to address this.
North Korea and its relationship to the US has been dismal for generations, was not a platform that was used to jump into Presidency (from memory he banged on about muslims etc etc instead) -peace on the Korean penninsula right now looks so good it matters not what US thinks.
Which is the point. North and South Korea are making so much progress, they technically could have done so earlier without international interference and decades of nuclear threats and invasion threats FROM AMERICA.
Kim Jong I believe is not the evil despot propaganda has him to be. Sure, hes not the most benevolent chap either but nor is Trump.
If NK feels the need to protect itself by arming itself with nukes then thats what it needs to do. It doesnt mean they will actually be used, like the USA or Pakistan or France or Russia ever really intend on using them.
There has been the right progress in the right area between the two warring Koreas. That is what was needed. The USA doesn't need to worry anymore and can not bully NK anymore, its not really in the position to insist on no nukes as its got the most out of anyone.
That border crossing was the best thing Ive seen and give Trump any credit that he feels entitled to, hes really not important - theres no need for US hostility in the area anymore.
Anyway back to banging on about Trump being untrustworthy. Hes a celebrity and a politician now. As if anyone really trusts one of those.
JessFR
Bluelight Crew
It amazes me how people let their dislike of the US blind them to reality. I'm not all that fond of the federal government either, but acting like it's the same as North Korea is something I find insulting to both America, and i would imagine North Koreans whom might object to being portrayed as in anything like a similar situation to someone living under American rule.
North Korea with nukes is not the same as America, or Russia and China for that matter with nukes. And I think people who equate them have blinded themselves to the obvious through their hatred of American foreign policy.
To the best of what is known with sensible evidence, Trump has never had whole families executed for threatening his power. Not the same.
North Korea with nukes is not the same as America, or Russia and China for that matter with nukes. And I think people who equate them have blinded themselves to the obvious through their hatred of American foreign policy.
To the best of what is known with sensible evidence, Trump has never had whole families executed for threatening his power. Not the same.
mal3volent
Bluelight Crew
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zephyr
Ex-Bluelighter
^ Yar yar America does, agree to disagree, having no real interest in discussing Trump besides his epic effort at obtaining world peace through crushing sanctions and nuclear threats - Ill leave y'all to be continually amazed at Trump's astonishing Presidency thus far.
Surely Russia and Putins retaliation expectations re Syria would be more worying? Dont see Americas nuke dickwaving in his direction. Bit gutless innit? Bit more scared of them?
Lol Trump. Hope Kanye makes him look sensible.
Surely Russia and Putins retaliation expectations re Syria would be more worying? Dont see Americas nuke dickwaving in his direction. Bit gutless innit? Bit more scared of them?
Lol Trump. Hope Kanye makes him look sensible.
JessFR
Bluelight Crew
I really hate Trump so personally I'd prefer you didn't make me feel compelled to defend him by taking the side of North Korea.
Jabberwocky
Frumious Bandersnatch
alasdair
What disturbs me most is how many of those values people actually do value.
zephyr
Ex-Bluelighter
I am firmly in NK's corner. I am not going to blow smoke up your arse and say reprehensible shit does go on there though. Its not borne out of nowhere, the fractured relationship with the rest of the world contributed to their secular cut off way of life. There was no give and take. They will not ever let any country stand over them and will fight for the regeime survival just like America would.
They are simply at a disadvantage economically and have their allies but limited trade due to sanctions.
Trump being president going off on Twitter seems like the madman lunatic. Being elected would have been a possible just cause for the nuclear program.
None of that would have been necessary if the nuclear threat wasnt there in the first place.
Kim jong had a 6 year plan to restore relations with South Korea, get the economy going and also arm with some nuclear capability.
Why? He saw the downfall of allies who had no nuclear weapons. He built the weapons to defend against a similar fate.
I dont believe tbe propaganda that he is the most evil man ever. Heaps of past rulers kill off traitors in families and in their midst, the royal families and other governments fo the same.
But hes gone a bit far paranoid wise and a lot have suffered due to this. They are poor but theres noveau riche. They must be allowed to go back to chinese jobs to feed their families.
Relax the atmosphere and there is less fear of traitors.
Trump should just back off and let the sanctions go.
NK wont use the weapons as they know they will be fucked if they do but anything could cause America to invent a pre emptive strike- a lot less chance now as they have defended themselves and bloody good on em.
Captain.Heroin
Bluelight Crew
The humans rights violations are inexcusable.
It’s one thing to imprison someone. It’s another to run a forced labor and death camp.
It’s inexcusable to have people born into the prison system.
It’s one thing to imprison someone. It’s another to run a forced labor and death camp.
It’s inexcusable to have people born into the prison system.
America's human rights violations are inexcusable. "Extraordinary rendition" ring a bell?
Solitary confinement? Sleep deprivation? Water-boarding?
America has unpaid labor camp prisons. America executes prisoners.
American kids are born into the prison system too - inter-generational incarceration is hardly uncommon in the USA.
The thing about all the claims against North Korea is that America is no angel, no virtuous example of peaceful civilization - and is guilty of many of the same charges - just on a different level.
I really don't see anything here that justifies a nuclear war that could decimate or wipe out humanity and a lot of the life on earth.
I'm on the side of peace, and keeping nuclear bombs away from these narcissistic manchild world leaders with penis envy.
Captain.Heroin
Bluelight Crew
Children don't immediately go to prison upon being born. They have a fair shot at a free life.
The death penalty in the US aren't extrajudicial killings. There are 19 US states without the death penalty.
Many US citizens detest the George W. Bush era torture policies. This is largely a thing of the past (black sites shut down, less than ten people in Guantanamo Bay, etc.)
It isn't likely the US would use a nuclear weapon in pre-emptive strikes against targeted DPRK sites. If they did, it would be an earth-penetrating weapon with minimal fallout.
Still, i don't think the USA has any high moral ground - look at some of the states the USA supports (Philippines, Israel, Saudi Arabia) - and look at the sort of "rebels" the US funds, and all the other crimes committed by the US overseas, and the countries and whole regions the american military and intelligence destabilise and manipulate around across the world.
The list is extensive, and arguably just as illegal and barbaric as north korea's excesses - just on a different level.
But i think both nations are unquestionably not without sin.
Pinochet, Pol Pot - all sorts of terrible butchers have been US backed - i really again have to go back to saying that this is not a conflict that justifies jeopardising humanity for.
I think a single civilian casualty is tragic, but if nuclear war kicked off over north korea, it would kill millions of people.
It doesn't make sense to me to say that human rights in korea are your justification for cheering for war.
If you actually cared about the north korean people, you wouldn't be calling for their densely-populated country to be attacked by the world's biggest army.
There's nothing good about war, dude - and it's especially notorious for causing violations in human rights.
The list is extensive, and arguably just as illegal and barbaric as north korea's excesses - just on a different level.
But i think both nations are unquestionably not without sin.
Pinochet, Pol Pot - all sorts of terrible butchers have been US backed - i really again have to go back to saying that this is not a conflict that justifies jeopardising humanity for.
I think a single civilian casualty is tragic, but if nuclear war kicked off over north korea, it would kill millions of people.
It doesn't make sense to me to say that human rights in korea are your justification for cheering for war.
If you actually cared about the north korean people, you wouldn't be calling for their densely-populated country to be attacked by the world's biggest army.
There's nothing good about war, dude - and it's especially notorious for causing violations in human rights.
swilow
Bluelight Crew
Many of those seem to be stating the same thing. Is this really why President Moon thinks Trump should win a Nobel peace prize? Using Syria for missile target practise? Right, that doesn't sound like some alt right nonsense propaganda in the slightest
Captain.Heroin
Bluelight Crew
Ideologies and human rights are worth fighting for.
Will respond later to the population density component of your argument.
swilow
Bluelight Crew
Are human rights more worth fighting over than religion or economic systems?
If the US really cared about human rights it would do more for the millions of its own citizens who seem to have been forgotten when we started gifting ourselves "rights". Aggression under the guise of protecting or restoring human rights is more about consolidating power and the US reminding the world who the top dog really is.
Personally, I question the entire concept of humanism. What a surprise, another ideology that puts humans as supreme and preeminent in nature. It's no different to any religion really which does the same to humans and I wonder why its something worth killing (and dying) over.
If the US really cared about human rights it would do more for the millions of its own citizens who seem to have been forgotten when we started gifting ourselves "rights". Aggression under the guise of protecting or restoring human rights is more about consolidating power and the US reminding the world who the top dog really is.
Personally, I question the entire concept of humanism. What a surprise, another ideology that puts humans as supreme and preeminent in nature. It's no different to any religion really which does the same to humans and I wonder why its something worth killing (and dying) over.
zephyr
Ex-Bluelighter
Having no health care for all and pittance minimum wage in the US is pretty woeful considering the wealth. Thats capitalism though, the rich get richer the poor get the picture. I hear NK has at least basic minimum needs for everyone.
Well I dont have any articles on exactly whats up or figures and honestly dont trust any outsider as its such a closed country.
The closes nature of NK itself is the root cause of its problems.
That needs to be addressed, the peace treaty is the beginning.
NK doesnt trust anyone and why should they. The regime will be paranoid about defectors. This will also be taken advantage of by shifty people and innocent people who have small transfressions too.
Everyone in NK does "voluntary" work back to the country. I like that, its sonething that should be done but obv they are poor.
The prisons are appalling and harsh but he country is poor. Heaps of countries are poor and cant afford to house them all. Its a reason why crims get released early in other places.
As for hard labor: peisoners are a cheap workforce and yes they should be fed and housed obviously but getting them to work ? GOOD.
Human rights abuses cant be fully addressed until that country opens up and interacts with the world, wont get better until the economy gets better and if America would back off that would be helpful.
Sanctions just hurt the people. They will be desperate and more will end up been seen as traitiors trying to leave so its a vicious cycle.
All govts put the survival of the govt FIRST ie nuclear bunkers and escape plans for Trump, none for you.
Kim is the same. The regime first. Everyone is the same
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I agree with a lot of what you're saying, especially the bit about sanctions just hurting the people.
That is true, and the iraqi sanctions - between the first and second gulf wars - are said to have killed over half a millions children, which shows the harm to civilians, who suffer from sanctions.
This inhumanity is one of the reasons that some people oppose the BDS (boycott, divest, sanction) Campaign against the Israeli Occupation.
There are a lot of socialist groups in my city, and that policy is one which between at least one of them and the rest, and the argue that it is better to show solidarity with israeli workers - and encourage them to for a push democratic solution to the israel-palestine conflict, rather than trying to force economic hardship upon them.
Sanctions are humane compared to miliitary strikes though. North Korea is a tiny, impoverished nation which pursued a nuclear program for self defence. It would be the height of reckless stupidity for any US President to put them into a position where they might feel justified in using them - but i think trump has already gone there.
I doubt NK are going to just throw in the towel and surrender to american pressure. Given their history (recent and not-so-recent) it seems unlikely to happen because of trump's "statesmanship".
I'm curious what pyongyang is scheming to do with all of this.
I hope i'm wrong and they peacefully dismantle their nuclear weapon program, but at this point i'd be surprised if that happens.
On the other hand, i imagine that having a batshit crazy US president scares kim jong-un; but i think it is ridiculous to spin trump's dangerous incompetence as a positive thing, even if it conceivably could have a positive flow-on effect.
It's like if you have a problem in your home with mice, and your house gets flooded with sewage - which gets rid of the mice.
Does that make the sewage flood a good thing, because it had a positive outcome, in getting rid of the mice?
It's a selective thing to argue that apparent (as yet untested) breakthrough in korean relations justifies trump's approach to international diplomacy, when he's caused such damage to relations with other american allies.
But anyway, i would argue that solidarity with the people of north korea is a better approach than military attack, if you are concerned about the human rights abuses suffered by north koreans.
That is true, and the iraqi sanctions - between the first and second gulf wars - are said to have killed over half a millions children, which shows the harm to civilians, who suffer from sanctions.
This inhumanity is one of the reasons that some people oppose the BDS (boycott, divest, sanction) Campaign against the Israeli Occupation.
There are a lot of socialist groups in my city, and that policy is one which between at least one of them and the rest, and the argue that it is better to show solidarity with israeli workers - and encourage them to for a push democratic solution to the israel-palestine conflict, rather than trying to force economic hardship upon them.
Sanctions are humane compared to miliitary strikes though. North Korea is a tiny, impoverished nation which pursued a nuclear program for self defence. It would be the height of reckless stupidity for any US President to put them into a position where they might feel justified in using them - but i think trump has already gone there.
I doubt NK are going to just throw in the towel and surrender to american pressure. Given their history (recent and not-so-recent) it seems unlikely to happen because of trump's "statesmanship".
I'm curious what pyongyang is scheming to do with all of this.
I hope i'm wrong and they peacefully dismantle their nuclear weapon program, but at this point i'd be surprised if that happens.
On the other hand, i imagine that having a batshit crazy US president scares kim jong-un; but i think it is ridiculous to spin trump's dangerous incompetence as a positive thing, even if it conceivably could have a positive flow-on effect.
It's like if you have a problem in your home with mice, and your house gets flooded with sewage - which gets rid of the mice.
Does that make the sewage flood a good thing, because it had a positive outcome, in getting rid of the mice?
It's a selective thing to argue that apparent (as yet untested) breakthrough in korean relations justifies trump's approach to international diplomacy, when he's caused such damage to relations with other american allies.
But anyway, i would argue that solidarity with the people of north korea is a better approach than military attack, if you are concerned about the human rights abuses suffered by north koreans.
zephyr
Ex-Bluelighter
I doubt they will disarm any faster than America will. If SK are good with that though then US will either fuck everything up and pre emptive strike as usual or just grumble about it and provoke shit again.
Wish they would just fuck off tbh.
Wish they would just fuck off tbh.
Captain.Heroin
Bluelight Crew
Define "more"? Quite vague.
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