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The 2018 Trump Presidency thread

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^ I don't think it's incorrect. Isn't the basic idea of taxes that since you're utilizing services or systems provided by society (Protection, Trade, Roads, Education, Etc.) you should help pay for those services.

Whether it's a flat, regressive, or progressive comes down to who society thinks should foot the bill.
 
spacejunk said:
wtf is this infantile idea that socialism = "free stuff"?
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its fascists acting in bad faith. sartre said it best:
Jean Paul Sartre said:
Never believe that [bigots] are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The [bigots] have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.
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SheWasLvL18 said:
^ I don't think it's incorrect. Isn't the basic idea of taxes that since you're utilizing services or systems provided by society (Protection, Trade, Roads, Education, Etc.) you should help pay for those services.

Whether it's a flat, regressive, or progressive comes down to who society thinks should foot the bill.
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The idea that everyone has to pay a basic flat fee to get to use money is a facet of a flat tax system. This doesn't exist in most 1st world countries. Even most state taxes in the US do not follow this.
 
Hang on a minute, the "free stuff" thing gets bantered about a fair bit, like here:
http://bluelight.org/vb/threads/826...its-people?p=14080915&viewfull=1#post14080915



I would rather pay a higher tax amount and have the income tax brackets adjusted correctly (which they never are) to have a country that has a uniform high standard education, health care even if it is basic, infrastructure, public transport etc.

That's what tax is for. If you're not even getting that, what's the point in having a government?

They actually are supposed to be public servants, working for you, not the other way around.


Jeez.
 
I don't like how selfish the American view has gotten... "MY tax dollars shouldn't go to SOMEONE ELSE, damn freeloaders". Taxation is a vital part of a civilization. You say "If you need to benefit yourself you can keep your own $"... individuals can't provide infrastructure for themselves. As much as I disagree with how much we spend on the military, imagine if we all just armed ourselves and didn't spend tax money on a military? We'd have been invaded a long time ago. I'm happy for my tax dollars to help someone in need, and if I'm ever in need, I'll feel no guilt at accepting the same help. We're supposed to be in this together.

Abolishing income tax is a ridiculous notion, IMO. Are we going to rely on some benevolent rich people to upkeep our roads and bridges? Turn our backs on people who got laid off and need to feed their families and need a little aid temporarily? For fuck's sake, how did we get here?
 
Shadowmeister said:
I don't like how selfish the American view has gotten... "MY tax dollars shouldn't go to SOMEONE ELSE, damn freeloaders". Taxation is a vital part of a civilization. You say "If you need to benefit yourself you can keep your own $"... individuals can't provide infrastructure for themselves. As much as I disagree with how much we spend on the military, imagine if we all just armed ourselves and didn't spend tax money on a military? We'd have been invaded a long time ago. I'm happy for my tax dollars to help someone in need, and if I'm ever in need, I'll feel no guilt at accepting the same help. We're supposed to be in this together.

Abolishing income tax is a ridiculous notion, IMO. Are we going to rely on some benevolent rich people to upkeep our roads and bridges? Turn our backs on people who got laid off and need to feed their families and need a little aid temporarily? For fuck's sake, how did we get here?
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taxes are only for subsidizing corporate profits and murdering brown people, you commie cuck
 
Some parts of socialism can be cost-effective. For example, we're probably better off with public schools, public roads, public police and fire departments, etc.

We could be in some libertarian world where we'd have to individually contract out for all of this, selecting whatever company we wish, but that's unlikely to reduce costs but would be likely to reduce the benefits received. In short, some things naturally fall into the public realm.
 
people cant really do anything constructive for society if they're always slaving away at a bullshit job just to take care of the absolute minimum basic needs (and falling way way short - thanks wage theft and inflation!)

if you're too busy stressing over where your next meal is gonna come from and how you're going to pay your electric bills, its difficult to impossible to do stuff thats beneficial to the greater good, because you'll fucking die if you dont eat

and then there's the huge loss of progress due to the fact that nobody wants to do research anymore (and everybody that wants to cant) because it can take years to decades to longer to become profitable, and progress and inventions are made by a bunch of little advances and breakthroughs accumulating until somebody sees all the right pieces and gets inspired. capitalism is inhibiting progress by preventing basic research (basic research is never profitable, but essential for advancement)
 
i was just being general but if you wanna more in depth explanation of how capitalism is ruining science, and all the progress that it brings

https://jacobinmag.com/2018/07/capitalism-science-research-academia-funding-publishing
...
The systemic consequences of increased market pressure on academic science are potentially catastrophic. As Edwards and Roy write, 'The combination of perverse incentives and decreased funding increases pressures that can lead to unethical behavior. If a critical mass of scientists become untrustworthy, a tipping point is possible in which the scientific enterprise itself becomes inherently corrupt and public trust is lost, risking a new dark age with devastating consequences to humanity.' In order to maintain credibility, scientists need to maintain integrity - and hypercompetition is eroding that integrity, potentially undermining the entire endeavor.

Furthermore, scientists who are preoccupied chasing grants and citations lose opportunities for careful contemplation and deep exploration, which are necessary to uncover complex truths.
...
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Sounds like a slippery slope fallacy if I ever heard of one.

But with all due respect you seem well read enough to believe in this if you want to. I just don't think that's the way things are going.

On the other hand, pointing to Chernobyl is pretty much the mantelpiece of how communism ruined science and its application on all levels... in before you list US nuclear incidents like Three Mile Island...
 
tathra said:
so in other words you admit that the argument in the previous sentence is invalid
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No, there's just an obvious back and forth that would transpire and I cut to the chase a bit. Do you think countries like Russia, Venezuela, Cuba etc. are doing better with science?

Europe can work a heavier tax and social welfare system because more people are contributors and they already have a strong economy and excellent-enough government and intelligent-enough people to flux away from leftist politics if they proved ineffective. I realize why Europe works the way it does. It will never work here. Too many non-contributors such as myself.
 
Captain.Heroin said:
No, there's just an obvious back and forth that would transpire and I cut to the chase a bit. Do you think countries like Russia, Venezuela, Cuba etc. are doing better with science?
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countries being constantly attacked and undermined by imperialists generally dont do well with much of anything. because they're being constantly attacked and undermined.
 
^ not to mention those imperialist countries tend to divert (force) science to produce for profit and leisure instead of breakthroughs to real world problems.

i don't have much of a problem with science, it's the corporations and governments holding a gun to their head or a really huge carrot making them do what they want.

rush the science and squash the innovation, imagination and possibilities. on the opposite end we have geniuses in schools getting coddled. polarized thinking never ends.

@TLB: OT did you see the response tweet to that one. "also to set the record straight: i had been referring to Trump Jr when i was talking about mooching."

my confusion probably comes from tweeting in politics is like handing notes in high school. not very professional.

going back off topic. this next quote was most disturbing to read from mister Abdul El Sayed.

"you may not hate muslims but muslims hate you." what a way to win a crowd over when your up for election, at least trump had the audacity to lie to peoples faces to gain office.
 
tathra said:
countries being constantly attacked and undermined by imperialists generally dont do well with much of anything. because they're being constantly attacked and undermined.
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Russia? Attacked by imperialists? Arguably always a world power. Has been notoriously difficult if not impossible for foreign powers to invade or gain traction in altering their trajectory. :?
 
@tathra: true.

eh, i didn't give it context (cause i'm tired from responding with a wall of words to you and Shadowmeister). i think mr. sayed was getting crap from his competitors in his run for office about being muslim and having ties to radical muslim groups.

even still, there are better ways to hold a political debate when running for office. trump is a d**k, abdul seems to be an in the closest maniac bigot but idk for sure. i try to stay away from muslims, too many people hate them and too many muslims don't get america(ns). gonna continue waiting to wait to let the fire die down and do some research before i can get first hand speaky knowledge with muslims. (what a world we live in sometimes. smd... uhh, i mean smh)
 
Captain.Heroin said:
I'm a freeloader and others shouldn't have to work to support me. Just saying.
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So...if the is the case, surely somebody is working to support you?

You're saying that it's ok for you, but it's not ok for somebody else to have help if they can't work to earn an income? Working isn't a choice for a lot of people - most humans would rather work than take a handout.

I've been on the dole. I've also worked ~95% of my adult life. I've more than paid for my the support i've received and that seems fair enough to me.

Also, i'm more than happy for my tax dollars to help support someone who cannot support themselves due to disability, illness, injury, old age or whatever.
I also understand that there are not enough well paying, sustainable, secure jobs to go around.
The current statistic in australia is that there is something like 1 full time job per 17 job seekers.

"Job seekers" meaning people that are unemployed and receiving unemployment benefits. It doesn't include all of the underpaid people looking for work, or unemployed people who aren't on the dole - so in reality, there are even fewer jobs than that.

In such an environment, society simply needs to look out for the people who cannot find suitable paid employment, even if we ignore the human element, the cost to society of having an underclass of desperate people with no (legal) means of support is greater than the burden on working people's incomes.

I guess the reality for me is that i live in a welfare state, and in my experience it's a good thing to have a social safety net.

Ideology and politics aside, it's a system that has helped me out in a pinch, as it has most of my friends. There's no shame in occasionally needing financial assistance, and it doesn't bankrupt working people to have a welfare safety net.
When there is no safety net or support for people out of work, it means that workers are less likely to stand up for their rights in the workplace - so one result (of many) is that more people get exploited.

There are vast amounts of academic literature that support the rationale behind various types of social welfare - from unemployment benefits to universal basic income - which i can't really do justice to in a forum post - and obviously most people aren't going to want to read it.

But really, i think the idea that rich people are entitled to all the wealth, and poor people should just go and starve in the gutter is simpy obscene.
Welfare states work - but i don't think there are any examples of modern societies that don't tax people and business, are there?
 
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