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  • Current Events & Politics Moderators: deficiT | tryptakid | Foreigner

The 2018 Trump Presidency thread

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DPRK would predictably choose NYC, DC or a west coast target for a retaliatory attack. None of us on the west coast or pacific realm feel safe.

Assuming said attack doesn't blow up on its own minutes after launch. Which is probably pretty likely.

But hey, I think this "you're safe so you don't get an opinion" argument is shit anyway. It says nothing about your point.

Personally my thoughts about your point are that it's probably far more extreme than is needed. Nuking ANYONE is overkill.
 
The bombings in Japan were to save American lives. Which at the time, having lost thousands of young men to a war that had started almost a decade earlier, seemed pretty damn reasonable to most Americans I'd wager. They calculated that at least (I think, if my memory serves) 250,000 men would die in taking the Japanese homeland. Instead we killed thousands of Japanese in two blasts, but zero Americans were lost, and they were forced to submit lest they face utter and total annihilation.

Whether or not it was the right thing to do is up to interpretation. I for one think Truman made the right decision. Japan started the conflict. It was only right we save American lives in ending it. If they didn't wana be bombed into oblivion, they should have fucked right off.

Arguably we pressured them into attacking us by cutting off their oil supplies via tariffs and embargoes. But still...

I sometimes wonder what the world would look like had the Reds never stolen our nuclear secrets. If you guys think American imperialism was bad in the late 20th century... sheesh, imagine a world where we still had the only nukes.

If I didn't think so little of my fellow Americans, I might argue that yes, American lives are worth drastically more than Korean lives. But I simply can't. America has shown it's true colors in the post war decades.
 
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It's the reckless bombing of North Korea that got us to this place to begin with. That's what the entire dominant narrative that the DPRK pukes out on a regular basis, "we need to stay in charge or the yankee imperialists who killed your grandma will come back to finish the job"

I fail to see the motivation or overall strategy involved in a preemptive DPRK strike on either the USA or its allies. As far as what goes within their own country, yes, it is an extremely authoritarian and autocratic society. Although I doubt "bombing it back to the stone age" is going to improve people's lives there.
 
Yeah JessFR I don't even think Hiroshima and Nagasaki were necessary at that stage in the war, I'll have to review my history a bit but seems like war crimes.

Ehhh, when I said nuking anyone was overkill, I'm talking about the current north korean context.

I don't think they were war crimes, but especially nagasaki. Nagasaki was so avoidable, japan could and should have just surrendered after hiroshima. But the japanese government at the time felt that we were bluffing and didn't have any more bombs yet, under the logic that if they were in our position and had more than one bomb, they'd have used them all right away. Japanese leadership was not very nice back then. They didn't consider that we might have been telling the truth and had more bombs ready to go because they couldn't comprehend that we might be showing restraint and concern for our enemy. They wouldn't have.

But they were wrong, they refused to surrender and for the most deplorable of reasons, hiroshima is one thing but nagasaki's all on them.

But this isn't world war 2, the geopolitical climate is very different, and we have plenty of conventional force projection, resorting to nuclear weapons with north korea is overkill, and we should not set the precident of using nuclear bombs in conflict if it can possibly be avoided.
 
hitler carried a grudge and picked up where his predecessor left off. japan actually showed up to the show late, after the italians had already started carrying the nazi flag (not the german one), due to some beef with the soviet union. america dropped the bomb because the japanese had escalated war tactics to an ugly degree and brought the war to america's door step as well as invading japan was going to cost too much. essentially the allied forces were getting ready to wrap things up in europe but due to the dropping of the bomb it brought the whole war to an end. a win lose situation

but a good lesson and brought attention to the world not of americas authority but of the dangers of nuclear weapons (if you fear america dropping nukes then your afraid of your own shadow cause there's this thing called treaties and everyone has one with everyone and their mother today). the soviet union didn't heed this and the cold war was escalated beyond ludicrous. luckily both america and the soviet union lost face when they played chicken and stopped before driving off the cliff. it's only a matter of time before one ignant dumbf**k does something stupid and the whole race is screwed proper like.

our nuclear technology, as far as the bomb goes, is in great part to europeans (mostly german) and other countries during the second great war were already in the process of making their own. soviet union stole some secrets directly from us and got the rest through other channels from other countries and a smidge of their own science. matter of fact the reason japan didn't have their own at the time is because they made a choice between nuclear weapons or ray guns. they picked ray guns and lost but better sonar and communications for all came from it. interesting read if you got a few minutes. https://io9.gizmodo.com/11-secret-weapons-developed-by-japan-during-world-war-2-1669775923 they went guerilla style with those balloon bombers and old school euro invades the americas with flea bombs and bacilla bombs.

as much as i agree with leaving countries to their own devices (and really hate how the world sees america as world police) i would say it's not a terrible idea to help S. korea if they asked us for it. having at least one conversation with other countries as a political handshake would get the talks of what is going on started even if america was the only one doing something about it. imo play dictator in your own dang country, start trying to take over another and someone is going to take notice (even if it's not american's cause we got plenty of lefties on this site and i'm sure that has some truth in reflection to a country or two).

nuclear weapons are disgusting (but i'm also sick in the head and think they're fun. shoot me.) all i can really say is trump needs to stop farting around with kim. you ever seen two arrogant, self serving jerks as lil kids try to play in the same room. kinda what's going on here.

if these two could stop fighting at the monkey bars and play in the sand box together not only would this trade deal go more smoothly but friction (as a by product) other countries have to deal with might be reduced and allow them to come at the conflict between N. and S. in a better light. then again kim might toss a nuke and trump might toss 5. small penises - big world - many people.

"wouldn't you prefer a good game of chess?"

"The whole point was to find a way to practice nuclear war without destroying ourselves. To get the computers to learn from mistakes we couldn't afford to make. Except, I never could get Joshua to learn the most important lesson."

"What's that?"

"Humility."
 
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Nuclear bomb technology is an inevitable development. Even if none of our nuclear physics secrets had ever gotten out, other world powers would have figured out on their own just like we did.
 
There is an argument which suggests that america should look at sorting out her own political issues - an administration that is out of control, a president who's grip on power is questionable (if not untenable) and a rapidly disintegrating democracy - before she goes around issuing ultimatums to other people in regards to their governments.

Personally, i think americans are in no position to judge others for having authoritarian leadership - at least the north koreans didn't vote to elect their tyrant leader.
 
There is an argument which suggests that america should look at sorting out her own political issues - an administration that is out of control, a president who's grip on power is questionable (if not untenable) and a rapidly disintegrating democracy - before she goes around issuing ultimatums to other people in regards to their governments.

Personally, i think americans are in no position to judge others for having authoritarian leadership - at least the north koreans didn't vote to elect their tyrant leader.

No democracy in the world can be said to be free of political issues to sort out, so that's not really an argument for inaction. And frankly, while I understand how people can lose their perspective, the US isn't anything like the state of north korea. Not even with trump. Trump might want absolute dictatorial power, and there might be people who want it for him, but I see no real evidence that he actually has it or ever will. The very fact people constantly enrage trump by saying shit he doesn't like is proof of that. If we were really like north kora, nobody would dare insult trump in public out of fear for their life.
 
I don't think the Trump presidency is gonna be around much longer. Not after the Manafort guilty plea. Manafort was there for a ton of it, Trump must be shitting about the info Manafort used to strike a deal with Mueller.

But nothing will change. It'll just become the Pence presidency. I think that's the optimistic endgame for the GOP in all this.
 
I don't think the Trump presidency is gonna be around much longer. Not after the Manafort guilty plea. Manafort was there for a ton of it, Trump must be shitting about the info Manafort used to strike a deal with Mueller.

But nothing will change. It'll just become the Pence presidency. I think that's the optimistic endgame for the GOP in all this.

Manafort will not have anything on Trump, his shady dealings were long before. Enjoy the disappointment in the near future.
 
When you have a president that has advisors and senior officials hiding documents and comminications from the president, because they he is too erratic, unpredictable, ignorant and irrational to respond appropriately to them - that's a major problem.

But it's not only that the US - as a nation state, a population of over 300 million - isn't in a position to take the high moral ground on government corruption, human rights abuses or threats to world peace. North Korea isn't arming the world, or putting weapons in the hands of terrorist groups across the globe - but uncle sam is, and has done for decades.

The most serious threats to America, and americans - is within the USA. There are some very dark forces behind trump.

So i don't only think america has bigger - more important - fish to fry, i think it is also a terrible idea to launch a war with such an unhinged maniac in the whitehouse.

As i've said before, i think the argument that an invasion of NK would save lives is totally bogus.
It would kill countless people and unleash a humanitarian disaster that would create millions if refugees.

Who will house these refugees? America? Unlikely.

The USA needs to stop destroying nations then acting like they bear no responsibility for the suffering and hardship faced by the innocent civilians who are simply trying to live there.

I think americans need to stop looking at their country as the only country that matters.
 
what about the millions of refugees created?

do you think a power vacuum in a place like north korea would work out well? y'know - with nuclear weapons and all?


really you haven't thought this through if you think "they would be better off" is a reasonable excuse for mass murder.
 
Hey man, Kim's a cool guy:



I forgot how funny that movie was. I think it only gets better with age.
 
@JessFR: agreed. humanity reaches far and strives for both the good and the bad. it's what we do with that technology that counts. after all it doesn't matter who made it, a lot of countries have them or access to them today and all it takes it for someone to lose their cool and we all are done for.

@spacejunk: no offense taken :), i agree with a lot of what you said about america. that's why i said we should get together with other countries and talk this one over.

it is no longer about this country or that one but with the awareness, conveniences and other progresses the human race has made it is really hard to ignore what happens in any country today. (especially with so many people who are motivated in human interests and rights across the globe.)

as much as we need to clean house (and we really do) it is hard to ignore the fact that so many people are being treated so poorly. power vacuums aside, one idea is a neutral state can be formed while a combination of a few countries can be a protectorate of sorts ( as well as look after whatever dangerous weapons they might have, which will be left in their country) until the people can figure out what to do for themselves. if they wish another dictator then so be it.

but the N. attacking the S. is one political influence forcing itself upon another and i wont pretend to know what you think on it until you speak your mind but i think you do not like how things turn out sometimes due to kimmies actions regardless of how you feel about america.
 
When you have a president that has advisors and senior officials hiding documents and comminications from the president, because they he is too erratic, unpredictable, ignorant and irrational to respond appropriately to them - that's a major problem.

But it's not only that the US - as a nation state, a population of over 300 million - isn't in a position to take the high moral ground on government corruption, human rights abuses or threats to world peace. North Korea isn't arming the world, or putting weapons in the hands of terrorist groups across the globe - but uncle sam is, and has done for decades.

The most serious threats to America, and americans - is within the USA. There are some very dark forces behind trump.

So i don't only think america has bigger - more important - fish to fry, i think it is also a terrible idea to launch a war with such an unhinged maniac in the whitehouse.

As i've said before, i think the argument that an invasion of NK would save lives is totally bogus.
It would kill countless people and unleash a humanitarian disaster that would create millions if refugees.

Who will house these refugees? America? Unlikely.

The USA needs to stop destroying nations then acting like they bear no responsibility for the suffering and hardship faced by the innocent civilians who are simply trying to live there.

I think americans need to stop looking at their country as the only country that matters.

While I'm a long way from being completely anti war with North Korea nor thinking this "America has no right/has bigger problems to deal with" argument is entirely solid, I'll agree with you on one thing.

Going to war with North Korea while trump is in office sounds downright suicidal. So if nothing else, I'm anti war with North Korea so long as it's under his "leadership".
 
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