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Technical: Could SSRIs reduce tolerance? (TheDEA look at this?)

Hi Adam,

I think that the term "decreased tolerance" in the discussion is a misnomer. Since the use of the SSRI is very short term, there would be no neurological change (as you've pointed out). The speculation here is more on the notion that by using the SSRI, after the experienced MDMA effects have finished, may prevent the reuptake receptors from further interaction. And that by preventing the remaining MDMA, or "other factors," from interacting with the receptors may help in preventing the user from developing a tolerance.

Of course, the idea of using an SSRI after taking MDMA is not new. But the suggestion that doing so may reduce tolerance effects is (at least, not that I am aware).
 
im simply saying that the changes induced by a single dose of a SSRI could be LESS than those induced by letting MDMA run its course without SSRI administration. Yes, the SSRI will induce downregulation, SERT reduction etc, but could this be less than that which would have occurred without SSRI administration? Your tolerance will have increased, but possibly less than it would have otherwise. A week later this would be perceived as a lower tolerance than you might otherwise expect...

You've misinterpreted what I mean. I'm not suggesting you directly lower tolerance, but rather that you minimise the increase of tolerance...
 
Yep, generally venlafaxine doesn't have much of an effect on NA till you hit 300 mg, and it doesn't affect dopamine till you hit around 350 mg -- which are much higher than the average dose.

As for tolerance...I don' t believe anything can bring the magic back. But I'm just jaded. :\
 
im not trying to bring back the magic. ive eaten 108 pills and, sure, its nothing like the first time, but i still find it special and a load of fun.... i just find when i postload with it that my tolerance does not increase anywhere near as rapidly as if i didn't.
 
I think that the term "decreased tolerance" in the discussion is a misnomer. Since the use of the SSRI is very short term, there would be no neurological change (as you've pointed out).

Neuro-adaptive changes in serotonergic neuronal structure begin from the first dose of an SSRI (see: Breggin, et. al.)

The speculation here is more on the notion that by using the SSRI, after the experienced MDMA effects have finished, may prevent the reuptake receptors from further interaction.

Yet the MDMA effects terminate becuase MAO deaminates the serotonin which was released. The reuptake transporters are still being affected by MDMA, although at only perhaps 50% efficiency compared to peak.

And that by preventing the remaining MDMA, or "other factors," from interacting with the receptors may help in preventing the user from developing a tolerance.

Are we talking about SERT here? Taking an SSRI will "bump" the MDMA from SERT. The SERT is still being occupied. Instead of the transporter working backwards (as is the case with MDMA) it's doing nothing. I still fail to see how this would be helpful.

Of course, the idea of using an SSRI after taking MDMA is not new. But the suggestion that doing so may reduce tolerance effects is (at least, not that I am aware).

New and highly improbable, at best. SSRIs have never been shown to do anything beneficial post-MDMA administration. Evidence has shown that administered parenterally they might be beneficial pre-MDMA, but we all what that does.


X
 
im simply saying that the changes induced by a single dose of a SSRI could be LESS than those induced by letting MDMA run its course without SSRI administration.

How? SSRIs have a higher affinity for SERT than MDMA does. How would this be beneficial?

Yes, the SSRI will induce downregulation, SERT reduction etc, but could this be less than that which would have occurred without SSRI administration?

The higher affinity a drug has for a particular site, the more "changes" are induced by it.

Your tolerance will have increased, but possibly less than it would have otherwise. A week later this would be perceived as a lower tolerance than you might otherwise expect...

A week later you probably still wouldn't have regained full serotonergic function, even with aggressive pre/post loading. Post-synpatic downregulation and changes in SERT density begin occuring immediately. This is why the first dose of MDMA a person takes will generally have the most pronounced effect. There is a significant body of evidence which says that some degree of post-synaptic downregulation is permanent.

You've misinterpreted what I mean. I'm not suggesting you directly lower tolerance, but rather that you minimise the increase of tolerance...

The only way to minimize the increase of tolerance is to space out use. The brain is very good at correcting what it perceives as imbalances, whether those are through MDMA, SERT or ECT.


X
 
Adam,
The higher affinity a drug has for a particular site, the more "changes" are induced by it.
Huh? Do you have an authoritative scientific reference for this?

Regarding your other arguments, did you read my post on the previous page?
 
Another theory is that it is a metabolite produced from the MDMA which is causing the damage. But that would still need to suggest that the metabolite has an affinity for the receptor.

You're thinking of the serotonin transporter, not receptors. At any rate, it's actually not surprising that a metabolite would have affinities similar to it's parent chemical; single metabolic steps usually don't change structure by all that much (such as MDMA -> MDA.) The metabolite would have different properties, but not necessarily much different.

and perhaps a new MDMA molecule attaching to an exhausted receptor produces the effect of damaging it (or rendering it unable to respond to future MDMA exposure until it has returned to its baseline).

What we know more or less 'for sure' about MDMA neurotoxicity is that something (MDMA or an MDMA metabolite or ?) is:

1. Drawn into the serotonin axon by the serotonin transporters (SERTs).

2. Broken down by the MAO enzyme, creating oxidizing chemicals.

3. These oxidizing chemicals are capable of damaging the axon if not neutralized by antioxidants or other protective mechanisms.


Re the original topic:

Downregulation of serotonin receptors is due to over-activation, which in turn would be caused by elevated serotonin levels in the synaptic cleft (the space between two neurons.) Since an SSRI would, by interfering with MDMA, actually cause a reduction in the amount of 'free' serotonin (which would in turn reduce how often the receptors were being activated) VelocideX suggests that taking an SSRI shortly after using MDMA might reduce the extent of receptor over-activation, thus reducing the extent of downregulation.

The idea seems quite reasonable in theory, although in practice there may be little real benefit because the effect could be very small.

Although blood levels of MDMA are certainly a starting point for predicting effects, there are other cycles at work, notably the loss of serotonin from the axons during MDMA exposure (both from metabolic breakdown as well as simple diffusion away from the axon.) Because of this, MDMA's effects would likely actually wind down more quickly then blood levels of the drug alone would suggest; the amount of serotonin being released and kept in the synapse would be a function of both MDMA concentration within the brain and remaining reserves of serotonin within the serotonin axons, and both variables would decline with time.

Also riding on the coattails of drug levels is downregulation itself. I couldn't tell you what the mechanism is, but it's no doubt a 'collective' mechanism (the neuron cares about how many total receptor activations/sec it's getting; it can't tell/doesn't care how often a specific receptor is being activated.) If a neuron 'wants' 50 activations a second, it doesn't care if that comes from 50 receptors each being activated once, or one receptor being activated fifty times...it's all the same to it. The point being that, once downregulation has begun (and it probably starts to happen fairly quickly) to reduce the number of available receptors, then the number of activations will also go down, reducing the motivation for the neuron to produce further adaptations even if there is still a ton of serotonin floating around.

So, downregulation is a factor of drug concentration, serotonin concentration, and available receptor density, all of which are declining during the MDMA high. There's also going to be some threshold level of receptor activation at which downregulation should no longer occur, making the low-drug concentration tail end of the high less significant than the high-concentration early phase. As a result, I would expect a much sooner 'crash' in the cycle of downregulation than MDMA levels alone would indicate. It's an interesting idea, and as I say, not unreasonable...but the effect of taking an SSRI after MDMA may have very little actual effect on the extent of receptor downregulation.
 
^^^^
Thanks very much for taking the time to go into the detail that you have. It was an excellent post. :)
 
Go to www.erowid.org and in the MDMA section read the excellant long technical article on ANTI-OXIDENTS.

It clearly states that anti-oxidents reduce alot of the damage, and anti-oxidents STOP YOUR MDMA TOLERANCE GONIG UP !!!

I have been taking 'pills' for over 5 years, but I have spaced them 1 month apart, and taken anti-oxidents with them (prunes, or green tea, or grape seed extract (very strong anti-oxident), and so on.

Just a week ago I went to a rave, and took 1 pill (a 7/10 on pill reports) and I was rushing hard for a few hours - it was as good as my 2nd or 3rd pill 5 years ago. I have the magic still. People kept saying 'wow your face looks like its glowing' I was so happy.

I also think I am lacking p450 2d6 enzyme because at my age 34 and my drug history (over 10 years) I should not get so high from 1 average pill.

The last 3 years I took Prozac after the rush finished, but I could feel the Prozac in the background for WEEKS after. I did not like this. It made me appathetic and gave me food allergys.

Last week I took Zoloft instead, and it worked BETTER, but it has a much shorter HALF LIFE which I am very happy about.

Also Zoloft is better with 'speedy' pills because Zoloft like most SSRI's is a mild beta blocker. Prozac is the only SSRI that is NOT a beta blocker. Infact, it is a mild MAOI so it increases blood pressure with speedy pills. I found this out the hard way.

Prozac has a 2 day half life, but its metabolite which is STRONGER has a 9 day half life !!!

Zoloft has a 1 day half life, but its metabolite which is WEAKER has a 3 day half life.

I want to try Paxil (1 day half life) because its metabolite has no SSRI effect, but it could be hard convincing the doctor to change a 3rd time.

Go to www.mentalhealth.com if you want to read more about SSRI's
 
i don't have experience with SSRI's(ok only once)

but every time i took MDMA(almost every week) i drop some St. Johnswort for a couple days after the MDMA and the next week the MDMA-high is just the same as before.. no tolarance :)
 
have been taking 'pills' for over 5 years, but I have spaced them 1 month apart, and taken anti-oxidents with them (prunes, or green tea, or grape seed extract (very strong anti-oxident), and so on.

Thats interesting, when you say you take your pills with anti-oxidents you take them both at the same time? Or are you taking them daily? Whats that schedule like? I usually just take some vitamin c daily and maybe double up on it the day Im going to drop.
 
rollin9 said:
Thats interesting, when you say you take your pills with anti-oxidents you take them both at the same time? Or are you taking them daily? Whats that schedule like? I usually just take some vitamin c daily and maybe double up on it the day Im going to drop.
Taking double the dose of vitamin c isn't going to do anything to help protect your brain from potential mdxx damage. Nor are prunes, green tea or anything like that, it's like putting sheets of paper in your top pocket to protect you from getting shot in the heart.
 
from and only from pers exp i can tell that the afterglow is not effected by ssri s(paroxetine/fluvoxamine). i did feel less fucked up (taken within 6 hours of first drop). and probably somewhat more relaxed and sedatedl.

it never neglected the half time of mdma. after mdma i feel good for an week. post load or no post load. this is in no way to provoke drug use. but it does have an sustained anti-depressant effect. the week after e i feel allright!
 
monkyfunky: are you saying that antioxidants cant prevent damage, or that excessive amounts of them won't prevent more damage than a lower dose of them?
 
Yea from what Ive alwayways thought taking a antioxidant would HELP prevent it, I know its not a always thing, but doesnt it help some? Even alittle?
 
It does help a little, yes, but from what I've read it would appear to be hardly worth doing.
 
monkyfunky said:
Taking double the dose of vitamin c isn't going to do anything to help protect your brain from potential mdxx damage. Nor are prunes, green tea or anything like that, it's like putting sheets of paper in your top pocket to protect you from getting shot in the heart.

That's the most ignorant thing I've heard this week. Have you even read the article?

I, for one, find my tolerance noticably lower when taking antioxidants. And it's not variation in pills either, they're all from the same batch.
 
Dr. Beat said:
Go to www.erowid.org and in the MDMA section read the excellant long technical article on ANTI-OXIDENTS.

[...] and anti-oxidents STOP YOUR MDMA TOLERANCE GONIG UP !!!


They misinterpret the research. In the experiment they reference for that claim, the rats were given neurotoxic doses of MDMA.

Group A gets antioxidants and big dose of MDMA. Mostly OK.
Group B gets just a big dose of MDMA. Much of their serotonin system is destroyed.

When you give both groups of rats more MDMA later on, the group that didn't get the antioxidants will be more tolerant of the drug because a large swath of their serotonin system has been destroyed, leaving the MDMA with nothing to act on.

I believe it is unlikely that antioxidants will have any effect on tolerance under normal conditions of use.
 
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