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  • BDD Moderators: Keif’ Richards | negrogesic

Sympathetic side effect of opiates wds

neu_nobody

Bluelighter
Joined
Mar 28, 2024
Messages
48
How to cope? Mainly increased heart rate, sweating. I know clonidine helps, but I can't get it. I have beta-blockers, are they okay to use? Maybe something OTC?
 
Yes, I can. Lyrica helps a lot and removes most of WD symptoms. But I still have increased heart rate+sweating.
 
Can you get pregabalin/gabapentin, or a dissociative (the longer acting the better, memantine works well). Or a benzo of course?
But yeah a beta blocker will lower the heart rate at least.
I just got memantine to reset my NMDA receptors (reverse ketamine tolerance) but I’m seeing it could help with opiate withdrawal and tolerance? Could somebody give me some info or point me in a direction?
 
I’m seeing it could help with opiate withdrawal and tolerance? Could somebody give me some info or point me in a direction?
I used memantine megadoses to get off morphine (480mg/d, before up to 600) and it worked better than I expected. There was some residual anxiety and lethargy but not too much, I'd say I could have gone to work if I had had to. My gf didn't realize much and we are living together. I used up to more than 100mg of memantine per dose but I had disso permatolerance. In PubMed papers they used 60mg as a start. Seems that memantine is an exceptionally safe substance. read about doses as high as 300mg but this will have you holing for days. It's also the cleanest dissociative I know of so far. I think NMDA antagonists are very underrated/-used medicinally.

But memantine shares cross-tolerance with other NMDA antagonists and won't reverse tolerance to ketamine. The only thing I know to lower disso tolerance to some extent is sobriety. I've been sober for 3 years now and recently found a leftover bottle of DXM and of course had to do it. When back before my break I could down 600mg of DXM with no dissociation so did now 150mg work well. So tolerance does go down again but it takes ages and I guess not down to zero.

I heard about sarcosine possibly helping but its mechanism scares me (it's a NMDA partial agonist) because dissos are anxiolytic for me and I have an anxiety disorder so I guess sarcosine would give me anxiety. And NAC but I tried this one and it did nothing.
 
My plan is to use it for a week or two during a ketamine holiday to ideally make the ketamine work better as I continue to taper the kratom. Do we think this plan makes sense or am i shooting in the dark. I see it could potentially make the kratom taper easier as well. Regusrdless the week or two off ketamine will help.
 
I used memantine megadoses to get off morphine (480mg/d, before up to 600) and it worked better than I expected. There was some residual anxiety and lethargy but not too much, I'd say I could have gone to work if I had had to. My gf didn't realize much and we are living together. I used up to more than 100mg of memantine per dose but I had disso permatolerance. In PubMed papers they used 60mg as a start. Seems that memantine is an exceptionally safe substance. read about doses as high as 300mg but this will have you holing for days. It's also the cleanest dissociative I know of so far. I think NMDA antagonists are very underrated/-used medicinally.

But memantine shares cross-tolerance with other NMDA antagonists and won't reverse tolerance to ketamine. The only thing I know to lower disso tolerance to some extent is sobriety. I've been sober for 3 years now and recently found a leftover bottle of DXM and of course had to do it. When back before my break I could down 600mg of DXM with no dissociation so did now 150mg work well. So tolerance does go down again but it takes ages and I guess not down to zero.

I heard about sarcosine possibly helping but its mechanism scares me (it's a NMDA partial agonist) because dissos are anxiolytic for me and I have an anxiety disorder so I guess sarcosine would give me anxiety. And NAC but I tried this one and it did nothing.
Also for somebody using it to lower kratom tolorence - what dose would be effective and frequency? I’m wondering if I make it a daily think or just one large dose?
 
A chemist I vaguely knew who ended up making fentanyl and then breaking Rule 1 informed me that NMDA antagonists were the most effective at symptomatically treating the (extremely long in his case) acute withdrawal phase.

The bracketed bit is because he was injecting fentanyl every 20 minutes night and day for 18 months. Of the five chemists I know who broke Rule 1 with fentanyl, 2 live, 2 ended their own lives, one in jail.

But I'm not sure where you are based but would never suggest someone break local laws.
 
I used memantine megadoses to get off morphine (480mg/d, before up to 600) and it worked better than I expected. There was some residual anxiety and lethargy but not too much, I'd say I could have gone to work if I had had to. My gf didn't realize much and we are living together. I used up to more than 100mg of memantine per dose but I had disso permatolerance. In PubMed papers they used 60mg as a start. Seems that memantine is an exceptionally safe substance. read about doses as high as 300mg but this will have you holing for days. It's also the cleanest dissociative I know of so far. I think NMDA antagonists are very underrated/-used medicinally.

But memantine shares cross-tolerance with other NMDA antagonists and won't reverse tolerance to ketamine. The only thing I know to lower disso tolerance to some extent is sobriety. I've been sober for 3 years now and recently found a leftover bottle of DXM and of course had to do it. When back before my break I could down 600mg of DXM with no dissociation so did now 150mg work well. So tolerance does go down again but it takes ages and I guess not down to zero.

I heard about sarcosine possibly helping but its mechanism scares me (it's a NMDA partial agonist) because dissos are anxiolytic for me and I have an anxiety disorder so I guess sarcosine would give me anxiety. And NAC but I tried this one and it did nothing.
Did you take large memantine doses to disassociate during a cold turkey or did you use it a different way?
 
I have over active SNS (sympathetic nervous system) issues. The "fight or flight" response it too easily activated. The opiate/opioid WD's are very dangerous for me. As well as pain, anger, and stress, they drive my BP/Pu through the roof. When I was married, fighting would cause my pulse to hit 180bpm with 210/120 BP.

I already know I have Hypertension II and irregular heart beats. Last month, I wore a Holter monitor for 8 days. I found out that I have SVT (Supraventricular Tachycardia) - a heart rhythm disorder where the heart beats rapidly (over 100 beats per minute) due to an electrical problem in the upper chambers of the heart. Apparently, I have a worse case of SVT because daily (5am-7pm) my pulse jumps from 55-72bpm to 150-175bpm 10-14 times per day. It happens when I stand up from a lying or sitting position, stress. and breakthru pain.

During sleep I average 43bpm that jumps to 80bpm throughout the night and back down quickly. Nightmares cause it to jump from 43bpm to 150bpm. I now know why I wake oddly like someone slapped me.

I think opioid withdrawals are underestimated because many people do not know if they have underlying conditions going on. I didn't know my pulse jumped up and down all day like it does until I wore the Holter monitor.
 
Did you take large memantine doses to disassociate during a cold turkey or did you use it a different way?
Before @dopamimetic answers,
I feel a little obligated to answer you, because i bombarded you with a lot a text and maybe missed esentials :D.
In my case i kicked two times Tramadol 1000mg+ doses(going up to 1500) a day with additional pregabalin, carisprodol, and ocassional benzo use
and a third time was an oxy habit ranging from 160-200 mg a day
I did take large doses to disassociate during a cold turkey but that is not its only mechanism

If you look at this site: https://psychonautwiki.org/wiki/Memantine
You will find: That apart of NMDA , its serotonergic , cholinergic, dopaminergic (and weak at a sigmaergic site)

First of all if you will start taking memantine at a sufficient dose ( i would say somewhere between 40-60 at its lowest. but really for me it started at
60 mgs a day). What is apparent for the first 3 to 4/5 hours is the Dopaminergic (and probably serotonergic effect) For me it manifested as
Feeling alive, motivated to do something, like planning what i will do during the day and at what hours (Like for example going to the gym, which i wouldnt be able to do normaly or reading/researching something i planned for a long time, Grocery Shopping and planning what to cook). Things like movies, games, reading about something felt much more interesting to me, not to mention that during normal CT withdrawal or withdrawals using other substances like pregabalin or kratom were so much different, where i wasn't able to do much/anything at least for the first week (you start maybe move a little after the 3rd day).This effect wanes after a couple hours and then you have the dissociation phase. It's not all perfect during the first phase of memantine, you may feel anxiety or be lethargic. Don't want to paint it as some magical drug but if the dose is right you can be much more mobile from the first day of your CT than normally it would be possible, but of course it probably varies from person to person. To be perfectly clear im talking about high doses. Im really curious how your adding of a smaller dose will affect your drug intake.,
(Forgot to mention that you will be much more focused internally, at least at first you probably won't be express yourself very well and be much
more focused on doing stuff you want with disregard for others). Lastly i feel like the diffrence between wd with memantine and wd using other comfort meds or CT is: Just maybe the diffrence and sort of side effect was that i was slower both in terms processing speed and 'doing' speed but i felt calm and inside my head felt quiet and calm, which can lead to a much more analytical/introspective mode of living and thinking. For me that was a real good effect, for some of you it might not be but your organism adapts to it and the benefits and at the same time some of side effects do not disappear

Getting back to the topic: Sympathetic side effects of opiates
For me after the dissociation phase kicks in and sorry, because im not 100% sure. From my experience doses from 80mgs-120 mgs i feel it eliminated things like sweating completely, i felt much more calm, my heart didnt feel like it was racing 100+km an hour. Wasn't feeling nausea. Wasn't having diarrhea. At doses 60 mg and esp lower like 20-40 mgs, after feeling of dissociation i for example could feel my heart beat faster, Felt that i was sweating (but this and faster heart beat still felt under a veil of sort, which i feel you could live with if you dont wanna take more. To use an analogy. From 20-60 you still feel wd it is just dialed down how much is indvidually dependent. With 60 mg the dial is a dialed down more )and felt generally that i would need to add pregabalin or benzo to calm my body. Wheter at higher doses you still experience all the CT withdrawal effects, you are just dissociated very much or like it said it eliminates those symptoms, im not sure 100% so sorry for that.

Continuing: from looking the list of symptoms of memantine at psychonaut wiki i could vouch for feeling:
and in terms of cognitive effects some that i will mention are:
Just wanted to list a few, you can read about the rest on the site. I can personally attest that you can experience a lot of the or almost all of the symptoms from the list. Some at various stages/waves, some at the same time. Some of the negative symptoms listed, imho are a result of taking too much/redosing etc.
Regarding taking memantine during cold turkey side effects: were insomnia, like dopamimetic said lethargy esp when the dissociation kicks in, sometimes you get bouts of mania/delusional thinking/magical thinking or just a sudden bout of anxiety
(i have a lot of stories but for me for eg. it manifested one time when i suddenly got worried about the dangers of taking nmda drugs esp Memantine. It manifested from thin air, i got anxious and got on google and started researching. I Found i think one of the first studies where they were giving developing rats memantine and despite not having qualifications to really analyze this article. I started anxiously reading it, looking for definitions/explanations if i didn't understand something. It took me/ i was sitting at it for 5/6 hours after which i calmed myself and manage to find a conclusion and realisation that it was stupid of me to paranoically sift through an science article. I believe the doses they were giving the young rats that got brain damage, scaled up would be so large, that it was impossible. To be clear i was on large 100-120 mgs dose and i personally i think memantine shouldnt be taken regularly esp in high doses, It should be used as a tool like during ct wd and you should be taking it if you want to for example for paws or depression, you can but at that point the doses should be much smaller in the range from 5mgs to 40 mgs max). It's generally a safe and really clean (in terms of cognition) dissociative drugs, i've used it 3 times for wds and sometimes for trying to lower my tolerance or rarely as an experiment (in low doses 10-20 mg) as an cognitive enhancer. Taking it daily or almost daily it didn't affect me negatively in any major way ( i think) and sometimes the introspection that it put me on helped me in changing damaging thinking patterns or dysfunctional behavior and those effects still persist. Just be wary that tolerance is a thing, it looses its effects and sorta magic if you will after some time and it becomes pointless to take it further,cause you are just left with lifeless, numb, cold wave of dissociation and it can leave you with a tolerance for a long time. Plus there is no silver bullet for addiction and PAWS. Don't use it too frequently, be careful with it and treat it as a tool. Taking nmda drugs too often is probably not too healthy in the long run (but at the same time not much is known about this particular area}.

One last thing @pnillyg at the dose you are starting 5 mgs up to i feel 20 mgs you probably won't experience much side effects
but if you will go into higher doses im talking 40 mgs and higher. It's important to eat regularly good, healthy meals and drink a lot of water or electrolytes, maybe use nicotine lozenges, it can counteract the letharghy and im telling you this because sometimes when you are on memantine it's easy to forget or get absorded in sth and forget and this can contribute to you feeling crap.

Edit. Sorry mods had to edit some things in the post, correct some mistakes. I'm excited to get the info out or write with not enough time and make many mistakes that need correcting.
 
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Hey @neu_nobody :)

What kind of beta blockers do you have access to? Propranolol?

There aren't a lot of great options as far as Over the Counter drugs are concerned. There are many who find that Dextromethorphan/DXM (Robotussin etc) is helpful, though I feel it's usefulness pales in comparison to a lot of the prescription drugs we frequently recommend.

If you ask a doctor or a pharmacist this question, they are liable to recommend something like Diphenhydramine (Benadryl) to you in the belief that its mild sedative properties would be effective for your condition. 95% of people I've known withdrawing from Opioids do not tolerate antihistamines well. They often tend to exacerbate severely symptoms like Akathisia/RLS. You're welcome to try, though my advice would be to steer clear. There really are no effective sedatives for what you're describing available at the drug store. Truly, the only "clinical strength" sedative you're going to find is going to be Alcohol. The rest is going to require a prescription.

Gabapentinoids, Pregabalin (Lyrica) included are known as some of the most effective medications available for alleviating symptoms of Opioid withdrawal. If you have it, you're in much better shape than having something like Clonidine (Catapres). The Pregabalin should help with a variety of symptoms. I know for myself, it just made the entire experience more comfortable for me every time.

Avoid Caffeine and stuff like that for now, as that is only going to make your tachycardia worse. If perspiration is an issue, go ahead and apply some strong antiperspirant. I have had to work in restaurants during Opioid withdrawal and I got to like using stuff like corn starch or gold bond spray to help deal with the excess moisture and thought it worked great.

@pnillyg @dopamimetic and @momotaro this isn't a huge issue or anything that requires handing out warnings. I just wanted to say, please be careful about steering threads that other people have made away from their original objective. I'm not saying you're totally out in left field with your subject matter, as we are still discussing Opioid dependence, but OP came here asking for help with perspiration and tachcardia/anxiety etc. I just don't feel that suggesting something as complex as a schedule of Memantine et al makes sense when reading OP's relatively straightforward OP.

He lost control of his thread and he's not even engaging with the new conversation. Just watch out for this in the future.

No harm done guys. Please though, if you'd like to discuss these things, just make a different thread and people will get back to you on there.
 
Hello @Keif' Richards

Thank you for your gentle reminder, should've sent @pnillyg a private message or reply in this other thread. Now it's obvious and i will be mindful
of that in the future. Yeah and memantine for tachycardia, perspiration etc is an overkill for most ppl. I see your point.
 
@momotaro thanks for understanding. I, too, can get a little carried away when I'm very interested in the subject matter. I wouldn't want to discourage that curiosity, as it drives a lot of our work here. I look forward to reading more about this topic from you, as it's not something I'm too familiar with, and I probably should be. Thanks again!
 
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