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Sydney security fatally shoots robber. Justified or not?

You can kill a person more ways with a knife than a gun, isn't it therefore a step down? Knives are classed as the deadlies of all weapons followed by cars then guns. I forget where this came from so don't ask for references.

But in terms of the security guard shooting this guy, I've got 2 things to say.

a) I bet as the guy way making his get away he wasn't expecting a chunk of lead to jump up and drive it's way through his skull.

b) At least she only used one bullet. Scum like that don't deserve the expenditure of two bullets.
 
i heard on the news headlines today that the security guard has claimed to have no memory of the shooting... i'll write more later
 
Guard has 'patchy memory' of shooting thief
By Michelle Cazzulino and Evelyn Yamine
July 28, 2004

AS a security guard who shot dead a thief was treated for her injuries yesterday, Sydney was divided by one question - is she a victim or a vigilante?


Police are waiting to interview Karen Brown who is said to have a patchy memory of shooting dead William Aquilina on Monday afternoon.

But opinions are vehemently divided over whether the guard should be charged with his murder.

"She's not a cold-blooded murderer like other criminals," small business owner Djuro Cikaric said. "She was just defending her livelihood."

Mr Cikaric, from Orange, killed 18-year-old Andrew Petty when he walked into his food store brandishing a rifle in 1996.

He did not face trial after the DPP decided not to press charges. Yesterday, he said Ms Brown would struggle with memories of Monday's attack but should not be charged.

"You get nightmares," he said. "A lot of nightmares and for many years to come."

Ms Brown's barrister Joseph Busuttil met with her for an hour yesterday and said she was having "memory problems".

"He pushed her to the ground and dragged her along the car park ... he tried to rip the bag off her back and she refused to let him have it," he said.

"She's very traumatised. She's traumatised with what's happened to her and ... with what happened to the man who robbed her."

Mr Busuttil has spoken with police but Ms Brown has not yet been formally interviewed.

"She's very fragile," Mr Busuttil said.

"Let's be realistic. She's a woman and she got beaten up. This guy had no compunction about coming up to a woman with a knuckleduster and tried to beat her brains out."

But he added: "Without knowing all the facts just yet, my immediate thoughts are that she has serious legal problems.

"She knows he attacked her. She knows she got dragged on the ground with the bag and she knows the gun went off but that's as far as she remembers."

He said Ms Brown, a member of the Blacktown Pistol Club, had worked in the security industry for four years. She had not been attacked prior to Monday.

"It's not her job to be bashed and brutalised and as far as I'm concerned, she's the victim," he said. "I think it's something that will stay with her forever."

Ms Brown was to be assessed by a psychiatrist after the shooting and will undergo a brain scan today. She ventured out of her two-storey Rooty Hill home once to go to the doctor and spent the rest of day resting inside.

Her de facto husband George Muratore last night said his wife may never fully recover from the ordeal. "She'll have to try and get over it," he told Channel 7.

"It's going to take a lot of struggling. I think it's something that'll stay with her forever."

Meanwhile, Victims of Crime Assistance League executive director Robyn Cotterell-Jones supported Ms Brown but said she should be charged with murder because what she did was unlawful.

"I can understand why she did it and I think she is going to suffer awfully because of it," Ms Cotterell-Jones said.

"I don't think the legal system is very fair. She made a decision on the spur of the moment after being attacked but it will look different under legal scrutiny in the cold light of day."

She also sympathised with the family of the dead man.

"No matter what he was doing, he is someone's son. Both are victims of crime," she said.

NSW Council for Civil Liberties president Cameron Murphy said the shooting highlighted the endemic problems within the security industry.

"I'd like to see the government regulate the industry so security guards were appropriately trained and know their powers," he said. "Too often they are placed in a position where they are made to act like police. It is an unreasonable expectation."

In 1995, former Sydney police officer Said Morgan killed a man who molested two of his relatives. He was cleared of murder at trial.

A year later, antiques dealer Anton Lees from Dural shot dead a raider. The coroner later decided it was self-defence. In 1997, Kolja Nikolic of Willmott was found not to have committed any wrongdoing after shooting a man who tried to rob him.

The Daily Telegraph
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She must have heard of Danny Williams (NRL Rugby League player) defense,he,he,he,he.....................

If it's true she shot this guy dead AFTER he left bashing her,and was leaving then she should be charged with murder.

Also,I personally think she shouldn't have been in that type of job to begin with.She doesn't look like she had the right build to be a security guard.If I was running that place i would NOT have hired her or anyone that is NOT bulky enough.Being a 'security guard' should be a specialised area.NOT just anyone should be able to do it.It sounds like he attacked her pretty easy.This may have been avoided if they had the right person in the job.Someone big and strong enough to have restrained this guy and NOT have something like this happen.

So,I blame the guy that's dead("Mind you,he has payed his price"),the woman that shot him and the employers for hiring her in the first place.
 
I think whether she was suited for the job, whether security guards should be allowed to have guns and the fact she's female is all pretty inconsequential.

She had just been savagely beaten. Imagine what was going through her mind - she would have been hurt, scared, angry... and then she realises she has the power to injure the person that did this to her.

I'm not saying what she did was right but I think it was understandable and I can't say that I wouldn't do the same thing if I was in her position. She would have pulled that trigger without thinking through the consequences. She will regret her actions for the rest of her life. Personally, I think that's enough punishment for her to go through.

And really, who is the lesser person... the one who attacks an innocent person with knuckledusters or the one who retaliates?
 
silvia saint said:
true, true.

i am no expert on the subject but i was under the impression that if someone is attacking you, the law allows you to defend yourself by using a weapon as long as the weapon is not more than one step up the order.

for example... a) fist -> knife. b) knife -> gun.

then again, if you are licensed to carry a firearm for your profession, you are probably allowed to use it against a water pistol. ;)

law students ?
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The thing is when you have a gun on your belt. This is a very fucking risky situation when your in a struggle with someone, you have to do anything you can do to maintain control. Anyone could grab the gun from you and bang. But that's a different story to what's happened with this women.

But yeah thats true if your an ordinary person. You can't hack someone up with your machette if they break into your house unarmed, or you'll get fucked, but if they have a weapon...
 
And Wacky theres plenty of security guards, bodyguards that are women and can handle themselves quite well even at her size. But it's pretty hard when someone's cracking you in the skull with knuckle dusters, I bet she didn't see that coming.
 
up all night said:
I think whether she was suited for the job, whether security guards should be allowed to have guns and the fact she's female is all pretty inconsequential.
Click to expand...

No it's NOT inconsequential, because if she was suited for the job this would NOT have happened ie: She would NOT have shot the guy dead and she would have been able to defend herself properly or just let him go.

Also, to CS you say "there are plenty of women that can handle themselves that are that size".Well clearly this woman couldn't and most likely she wouldn't be the only one.I've seen plenty her size being beaten by drunks and only to be saved by BIGGER security guards.

I don't have anything against 'security guards' being female.I have something against one's that don't have the right build for it and are NOT up to the job,both male and female eg: I was considering becoming a security guard,but I feel I don't have the right build for it and the other times would most likely be really boring.
 
yep, don't forget she was beaten with a weapon though. and i was never saying you were being sexist or anything
 
Christian Soldier said:
yep, don't forget she was beaten with a weapon though. and i was never saying you were being sexist or anything
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Yeap I remember she was beaten with a weapon.A bulker person still would have defended themselves better.

No worries ;) I was just making sure people realised my point was about a persons size and strength,NOT sex :D .
 
Size doesn't always mean someone can better defend themselves. Sure they have more weight and have an advantage but i think it comes down to whether you can handle your own. Think of martial artists, a relatively small looking guy could whoop someone twice his size if he has the right skills.

I think it's a tough situation. Obviously she didn't have a right to kill him but her actions are understandable, however you would hope that someone in her position would have better restraint of their emotions. But that's not exactly something you can easily screen for before hiring someone.

We can all theorise about it but when put in the same position as her you don't know what you would do.

Adikkal
 
Yep i'm not sure what you mean you don't have the right build, unless your a midget. And if you feel insecure about your weight you could always eat more/workout. But the main thing is you should know how to fight (box and grapple) and have alot of self-confidence. Sure being 6'6, 150kg helps but the average height is like 5'9, most of the time your not going to be too outweighed. And you don't need to be too strong to put someone in a choke or armbar if you know what your doing.
 
Adikkal said:
Size doesn't always mean someone can better defend themselves. Sure they have more weight and have an advantage but i think it comes down to whether you can handle your own. Think of martial artists, a relatively small looking guy could whoop someone twice his size if he has the right skills.

I think it's a tough situation. Obviously she didn't have a right to kill him but her actions are understandable, however you would hope that someone in her position would have better restraint of their emotions. But that's not exactly something you can easily screen for before hiring someone.

We can all theorise about it but when put in the same position as her you don't know what you would do.

Adikkal
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I agree size doesn't always mean someone can better defend themselves.It can mean they can have a better chance then a smaller built person,especially if both were NOT skillfully trained.From the sounds of it this woman wasn't.Even trained some people have it and for others all the training won't help them EVER.

If a bigger built person was taught the same training as a smaller person.In a fight the bigger built person should win if they use there weight properly.

Finally,I'll be honest if I was in her position I'd probably do the same thing as her because:-

*I have a bad temper and can lose it in the heat of the moment.
*I'm NOT a big bloke,don't have the skillful training and security get basic training and I mean basic.

Thus, some of the reasons why I choose NOT to be a security guard.
 
Adikkal said:
^^ When you wear a uniform.

At least it seems to be that way. That said, sporting uniforms usually dont carry the same ability to justify murder - just clarifying for all those contemplating topping off someone in their footy outfit

Adikkal
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bit off topic i kno but i seem to recall in the olympics a ref got struck by a javelin :\

back on topic: could the car not have been used as a weapon against the security guard? but in all honesty after being beaten like that a person is in a state of rage and hate... they arent entirely in control of thier bodies sometimes. i have a situation where i click out and dont recall what happens while there are 6 ppl holding me back when oi come to.

-dee
 
I think what she did was fucking excellent, the best part of the story in the news paper was when I read that the thief didn't die straight away, but suffered in pain until dieing in hospital later. I have no sympathy for that piece of shit what so ever. People like that have no place in society at all. Ok, lets think about this in a few different ways. What if the security guard had of been knocked unconcious and died from head wounds or brain damage? not an unlikely scenario considering the piece of shit was smashing her head in with knuckle dusters. I think he got exactly what he deserved, if he had of got away he would most likely do it again and again and so on and so on. I know it sounds harsh, but do we really need people like this in our society?
 
Tricky situation indeed.

I suspect she'll be charged with something and have a fully suspended sentence or else have the charges dropped completely.

I too feel very little sympathy for this guy and one thing that hasn't been mentioned so far is that there is very little deterrance factor for armed robbers if in getting shot whilst in the course of a robbery THEY end up as the moral victims.

I think it's entirely healthy for people like this to actually think there's a good chance of being shot and killed if they try and hold up armed security guards. If that was the case then maybe this sort of crime wouldn't be so common.

I don't think the security guard should have shot the guy as she did when he was sitting in his getaway car. But if the net consequence is that lowlifes like that think twice before commiting similar kind of bash and grabs, well I certainly wouldn't be losing any sleep over that.
 
My attitude towards this is pretty much that I have very little sympathy for the dude who was killed beyond what I would have for anyone being killed.

Having said that, I don't applaud the security guard at all...I don't condemn her because, as up all night and some other people have pointed out, I can't say that I wouldn't do the same in her situation. If some asshole had just finished beating the crap out of me, I don't know that my normally pacifistic "live and let live" views would be as in place as they generally are. I do think it's right that there's an investigation, I do think she should get some kind of counselling to deal with it, I don't at all see her as some kind of violent monster.

It's sad that a man was killed and as he was leaving I can't say she was "just defending herself", but when you go up against someone carrying a lethal weapon and beat the shit out of them so you can get some quick cash...well fuck it, you can't say it's a SURPRISE that they'd retaliate....
 
Macksta said:
Tricky situation indeed.

I think it's entirely healthy for people like this to actually think there's a good chance of being shot and killed if they try and hold up armed security guards. If that was the case then maybe this sort of crime wouldn't be so common.
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I couldn't agree more, and it's one of the things that had me wondering about this case. If you see a uniformed securty gaurd with a sidearm, you are going to think twice about comitting a robbery when you know from the outset you are up againt someone who is armed. In this case the woman was in plain clothes and showed no signs of being armed. Where is the detterent in that.
Or does announcing you are a security gaurd make you more of a target from the outset?:\

Oh and btw i too have very little sympathy for the guy. Just thought i should mention it as i haven't done so previously.
 
sonicnature said:
When is killing someone ever justifiable?
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That's a fairly malleable question. It all depends on the circumstances. If I came home to a significant other being raped I would not hesitate to open the kitchen drawer and stab the rapist to death.

On the other hand I don't believe in capital punishment.
 
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