Supplements vs. a Balanced Diet?

[frizzantik]

Fresh air, excercise, PLUS supplements.

just eat a healthy diet, then you won't need to suppliment it.. the only point of suppliments is to make up for nutrients not consumed in your diet. if you already get enough vitamins in your diet, a suppliment won't make you even healthier. in fact some vitamins in larger than recommended amounts are actually bad for you. suppliments are not absorbed nearly as well as whole foods either.

so people please stop encouraging suppliment pill popping and start encouraging healthy eating. just eat fish instead of taking fish oil, and eat a variety of fruits and veggies instead taking a multivitamin, as opposed to eating crap food all day and then taking suppliments to make up for the lack of nutrition.. thats why people are so fat these days; cause they eat foods with no nutritional value and thus still feel hungry after they eat. if you eat foods with nutrients, you get your nutrients and your calories at once which is much more satisfying

</rant>

 

[Strawberry_lovemuffin]

Frizz!! You can't say no supplements in here, we love our supplements

Of course. You're right about the balanced diet, where lack of it is completely due to laziness. But that's not always the case.

 

[MynameisnotDeja]

just eat a healthy diet, then you won't need to suppliment it.. the only point of suppliments is to make up for nutrients not consumed in your diet. if you already get enough vitamins in your diet, a suppliment won't make you even healthier. in fact some vitamins in larger than recommended amounts are actually bad for you. suppliments are not absorbed nearly as well as whole foods either.

so people please stop encouraging suppliment pill popping and start encouraging healthy eating. just eat fish instead of taking fish oil, and eat a variety of fruits and veggies instead taking a multivitamin, as opposed to eating crap food all day and then taking suppliments to make up for the lack of nutrition.. thats why people are so fat these days; cause they eat foods with no nutritional value and thus still feel hungry after they eat. if you eat foods with nutrients, you get your nutrients and your calories at once which is much more satisfying

</rant>

Theres no way in hell Im going to be able to eat perfectly all the time..and you would have to eat a lot of fish every week to get the omega 3s in fish oil supplements..and I dont even like fish! Maybe some people can eat enough of everything to be perfectly healthy, but most of us need supplements.

 

[markusgoneawry]

just eat a healthy diet, then you won't need to suppliment it.. the only point of suppliments is to make up for nutrients not consumed in your diet. if you already get enough vitamins in your diet, a suppliment won't make you even healthier. in fact some vitamins in larger than recommended amounts are actually bad for you. suppliments are not absorbed nearly as well as whole foods either.

While no doubt healthy lifestyle and healthy eating is necessary for optimum health, I think the above quoted statement is not quite true.

1) You are right in the fat that there is no need to suppliment if you get all your nutritional needs through diet. But the fact of the matter is many of us do not. This is especially true if you are an athlete or don't mold into the "average" person with "average" needs.

2) I do not know that supplements are not absorbed as well as whole foods. Can you provide a reference? My guess is that absorption has nothing to do with the source of the vitamin or mineral, but rather how it is injested, and what it is injested with.

3) And remember everyone they are suppliments and NOT replacements.

 

[dwfan]

Theres no way in hell Im going to be able to eat perfectly all the time..and you would have to eat a lot of fish every week to get the omega 3s in fish oil supplements..and I dont even like fish! Maybe some people can eat enough of everything to be perfectly healthy, but most of us need supplements.

And not to mention potential mercury contamination in fish. The fish oils supplements are usually made from species least prone to contamination.

Also depleted soils provide lower mineral content to foods than before. Add to that the unnatural diets that livestock are fed, as well as the antibiotics that they are juiced up on. Is it any wonder why we need to supplement?

 

[MynameisnotDeja]

Yeah seriously. Supplements rule!

 

[star*]

I'm with you frizzantik, supplements should never replace real food unless it's deemed absolutely neccessary. Why would anyone want to ingest a range of expensive, artificial, laboratory-made vitamins when all they need to do is simply buy the right foods, which are already packed with the perfect balance of vitamins, minerals, and co-factors, all working together to produce the most bio-available source of nutrients to nourish our bodies.

I hate the idea of people thinking "oh well i dont eat a balanced diet so i NEED to take supplements" That's crap, what you NEED is to change your eating habits. It's like we are all so accustomed to just popping pills in an effort to 'fix' things, instead of putting some time and effort into improving our state of health and bodies as a whole. Im not pointing the finger at anyone, (i realise most people in here would never advocate the use of supplements in place of food) it just saddens me that generally speaking people rely too heavily on quick fixes these days without looking into and trying to understand the real source behind their lack of vitality.

That being said, yes i understand that in some instances it is necessary to supplement. But i hardly agree with the statement above that 'most of us need supplements'. Thats just ridiculous.

Also on the fish oil capsules, alot of the cheaper ones are produced from farmed salmon which are packed into tiny enclosures, fed by pellets and have a higher incidence of disease due to the overcrowding. If your in Australia you can buy a practitioner-only range from bioceuticals (there are others but i rate these ones pretty high if you are going to supplement) that are made from wild salmon and have higher EPA/DHA levels than regular fish oil supplements. Yes they are more expensive but i think they are worth it.

 

[markusgoneawry]

That being said, yes i understand that in some instances it is necessary to supplement. But i hardly agree with the statement above that 'most of us need supplements'. Thats just riciculous.

Well...I guess I would counter that MOST of us (in the USA at least) are fat, lethargic and unhealthy due to diets and lifestyles that dont feed us the proper nutrients.

MOST of these people DO need supplements for their health. Even if its only a multi-vitamin.

Now they could just change their lifestyle...true...

 

[star*]

Well...I guess I would counter that MOST of us (in the USA at least) are fat, lethargic and unhealthy due to diets and lifestyles that dont feed us the proper nutrients.

MOST of these people DO need supplements for their health. Even if its only a multi-vitamin.

Now they could just change their lifestyle...true...

Like i said, no they dont need supplements. They dont have a 'disease' as such. What's wrong with people taking some initiative and realising that the state of their health is their own responsibility, insted of relying on supplements to give them what they should be getting from their diet.

Anyway i dont want to go off topic in this thread. Sorry. I'll just leave you with this for your last comment. If you think that putting synthetic substances into your body is equal to and just as good as natural occuring substances then well, i guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

When you take ordinary, synthetic supplements, chances are you'll be flushing most of them down the urinal the next time you use the restroom. This is because a synthetic supplement is not absorbed into the body as well as a natural one. When synthetic supplements are taken in pill form, they dissolve quickly and all at the same time, therefore the body is unable to absorb most of the nutrients.

Another drawback, is that synthetic supplements are a by-product of the petroleum industry, whereas natural supplements are a by-product of living things, such as plants and animals.
http://www.sirjasonwinters.com/natural.htm

Most synthetic vitamins are manufactured from oil. That's right, OIL. The same oil which is the precursor for thousands of other products we use every day, including gasoline for our cars. Synthesizing "vitamins" from oil is extremely cheap. As technology progressed, we were able to isolate various "vital amines" which is what we derive the word "vitamin" from. Because we were already off track with our thinking about nature, we logically concluded that conjuring up COPIES of these "vital amines" would be as good but cheaper than using the real thing. This line of thinking fits into the mold of our adversarial relationship with the natural world.

Unfortunately, it too has proven to be an extremely poor, if not hazardous, practice. Synthesized vitamins, by their very nature, are only copies of what we, looking through the eyes of technology and bias, could see. We assume that what we see is all there is to see. Beyond seeing the understanding of how these vital amines work within the natural system. Once again, we overlook some extremely important facts.
http://www.purehealthsystems.com/medical1.html

 

[markusgoneawry]

Star,

Like I had said, supplements are obviously not needed if all nutritional requirments are being met through diet. However I would say in 95% of people this does not occur. All I am saying is that in these cases nutritional supplements help optimize one's health. Although there are cases when supplementing is necessary (athletes, elderly, sick, etc.) regardless.

Intake and absorbtion of supplemental vitamins and minerals can be controlled (or at least optimized) by the person ingesting them. If you don't believe that a molecule is a molecule is a molecule regardless of source, well then we will just have to agree to disagree.

You did notice however that both your articles are written and posted on whole food supplement/product distributor's websites. A bit biased perhaps?

This is probably the wrong thread to discuss in, feel free to open a new thread to further the discussion. I am sure more people have an opinion on this.

 

[EpicureanDream]

star*, I don't know where you live but here in the West pleasure and simple sustenance are the two major factors that govern people's eating habits; not eating for optimal health. Admittedly, there is a minority of people whose eating habits are principally governed by a desire for optimal health but there is an even greater minority that strive to strike a balance between pleasure and health eating. This is where supplements come in.

It could be argued that a fully balanced diet is preferable to a supplemented, middle of the road diet but it can not be argued that an unhealthy diet is better than either. It's a compromise for those of us with the very human Epicurean traits.

You can't deny their usefulness in a modern, liberal decadent society.

 

[markusgoneawry]

^^^Very well stated, and I even learned what Epicurean meant today, and how I much more epicurian than hedonistic.

 

[Jimmy the Gun]

I find eating all the right foods to get the right nutrients to be a giant, expensive, time consuming head ache. I work 8 hours a day, I live in a place where there is a small range of produce for sale, I'm vegan, I'm very active, and I believe in technology. Supplements logically follow this reason chain.

While it could be in my head, ever since I started taking supplements I've felt better, think more clearly, and even look better. I agree with my name on this one. supplements rOk.

 

[da_sense]

I give my vote for supplements. And here's why.

First as already said most of us in modern world can't recommended number of servings of fruit and vegetables a day. We eat when we have time and what we have at hand. So for most of us supplements are the way to improve our nutrition. I (and probably everyone else) wouldn't eat much better if you would take my supplements.

Second it has been found that some stuff that doesn't occur naturally in our food can be good for us (think of 5-HTP and piracetam). There are many more, and researchers are finding these things can make us more healthy or prolong our lifespan. Secondly it has also be found that taking 200-500mg of Vitamin C per day is definetly a good thing. How can you get 500 mg of Vit C per day froom food? And it's just one example. Then there's enviroment and modern way of life. Everything is polluted and we're under more stress than those who lived before us. So we need better nutrition than them just to make up for this new situation. And if you want to push your body even further you need more and more supplements.

I belive everyone should find a balance. If you don't like supplements it's fine, don't take them, eat healthy. But you should also know real health benefits of supplements and decide for yourself.

 

[Strawberry_lovemuffin]

My 2cents....

I do eat a balanced, nutritious varied diet. Here's just a sample of the different things I usually eat in an average week, every week:

Capsicum (red, green and often orange)
Broccoli
Brussel Sprouts or green beans
Pumpkin
Potatoes
Carrot
Dark-leafy lettuce, or baby spinach leaves
Celery
Tomatoes (lots)
Cucumber
Snow Peas
Mushrooms
Onion, spring onion, garlic, herbs
Oranges
Apples
Bananas
Strawberries or Blueberries
Rockmelon
Cashews, almonds
Oats
Wholegrain Bread
Avocado
Salmon
Olive Oil
Fish
Lean red meat - top grade steak or lamb
Tuna (lots of)
Rice - basmati
Pasta
Cous Cous
Kidney Beans or Chick peas
Low-fat yogurt
Low-fat milk
Tofu (occasionally)


.... yes, I would usually buy ALL of these things in my average weekly shop. (My shopping is v. expensive!! ). And I have lots of time to cook. And I do. I bring salads every day to work, cook a homecooked meal every night, except weekends, which are my naughty times.

So you could say, in effect, I'm close to ideal.

But I STILL endorse supplements. For starters, I don't know how much nutritional value is actually in the food I'm eating. I know it's good, but how many vitamins, how much RDI am I getting? You'd have to be a nutritional scientist to work it out. I am a smoker, so I need to be careful of my Vitamin C levels (smokers need twice as much). Who knows if I'm actually balancing it out? I'd prefer to be safe. Also, I take extra fish oil capsules because I believe that even with the tuna and salmon I manage to fit into in my diet, I'm probably not getting enough to balance out the Omega3 deficit we usually have in our diets. I dread to think how people who don't eat fish at all can manage.

I drink alchohol. I'm not giving that up any time soon. That leeches vitamins from the system too (mainly B, which is my desert island essential ). So you see, supplements have a place in even good diets, I think... let alone ones where people have a 1/4 of the variety I get in mine.

That said, I *don't* take antioxidants or a multivitamin; purely because I eat so much tomato, berries, fruit and red capsicum that I figure I don't need to. But for most people who have broccoli dying in their fridge while they're still at work at 9pm at night, it's almost essential. Ditto for people who are actually trying to get a therapeutic benefit (ie. overcoming disease/ preventing glaucoma etc) rather than just a maintenance one.

I reckon we could all make a little bit more of an effort if we really tried, but supplements are a good way of making up a shortfall. I'm not recommending going silly and spending your whole week's wages on expensive stuff... but if people feel it benefits them and it fits their lifestyle better, or fulfills certain needs foods cannot, I don't see the harm.

 

[frizzantik]

1) You are right in the fat that there is no need to suppliment if you get all your nutritional needs through diet. But the fact of the matter is many of us do not. This is especially true if you are an athlete or don't mold into the "average" person with "average" needs.

atheletes tend to eat better and more than anybody.. they are the least likely to need vitamins and minerals.. when it comes to nutrients, more than 100% of what you need isn't "better"... it wont make you perform better or anything.. perhaps if you take a chemical that isn't a nutrient, it will cause enhancements, but with things your body needs to survive, you more isnt better. If you take more than your body needs, you just piss it out

i found a great site on this topic.. here's some selected bits

Supplements are not needed if a variety of foods are eaten. Taking in more nutrients than the body needs does not give added energy, more brain power or greater protection against disease.

...

Research from a decade ago suggested that taking antioxidant supplements might help protect against cancer. However, newer findings from clinical studies indicate that taking antioxidant pills does not offer protection against cancer, and may even do some harm. On the other hand, eating lots of food rich in antioxidants, such as green vegetables, citrus fruits, deep-orange colored produce as well as other types of fruits and vegetables has been shown to be protective

...

Very high doses of many vitamins such as A, C, D and B-6, as well as several minerals, can cause serious health problems if taken regularly. Excesses of one nutrient may cause nutritional imbalances or increase the need for other nutrients.

http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/foodnut/09338.html

 

[star*]

I guess im in the minority here

Ok, dont get me wrong, i think its awesome that people are being proactive and taking an interest in their health, they've realised they are not meeting their nutritional requirements and therfore are supplementing to compensate. I mean that's great, for a while . I'd rather have people at least supplementing their 'ok' diets, then have people continuing to eat a poor diet with no nutritional needs being met whatsoever.

The problem i see though, and what i am trying to get across is that yes, supplements can be great as an intermediate solution, but the ultimate AIM for a person should be to find a solution as to how they can comfortably derive all their required nutritional needs from food alone.

The concept of supplementing leads to the thinking that it's ok NOT to be getting these nutrients from food. It' ALLOWS a person to feel as though what they are doing is adequate enough for their health. It produces laziness towards one's health and brings about alot of justified excuses as to why they 'cant'. I dont doubt that most people if given the chance WOULD get all these nutrients from food, but what i'm asking is what's stopping you from doing that now? What's stopping a person from taking that extra step towards their own health?

It really isn't as hard as you think to meet all the RDI'S if you simply base your diet around whole foods.

 

[EpicureanDream]

I guess im in the minority here

Ok, dont get me wrong, i think its awesome that people are being proactive and taking an interest in their health, they've realised they are not meeting their nutritional requirements and therfore are supplementing to compensate. I mean that's great, for a while . I'd rather have people at least supplementing their 'ok' diets, then have people continuing to eat a poor diet with no nutritional needs being met whatsoever.

The problem i see though, and what i am trying to get across is that yes, supplements can be great as an intermediate solution, but the ultimate AIM for a person should be to find a solution as to how they can comfortably derive all their required nutritional needs from food alone.

The concept of supplementing leads to the thinking that it's ok NOT to be getting these nutrients from food. It' ALLOWS a person to feel as though what they are doing is adequate enough for their health. It produces laziness towards one's health and brings about alot of justified excuses as to why they 'cant'. I dont doubt that most people if given the chance WOULD get all these nutrients from food, but what i'm asking is what's stopping you from doing that now? What's stopping a person from taking that extra step towards their own health?

It really isn't as hard as you think to meet all the RDI'S if you simply base your diet around whole foods.

I concur.

 

[xxanxx]

^I think I see both sides on this one. While supplements are great for making up shortages in a good diet, they shouldn't be looked at as your only source of nutrients. I can't tell you how many people I have known who live off fast food and other fried nasties, but think they are fine because they take a multi-vitamin. The fact that they are constantly sick doesn't even make them think about reforming their diet.

I think the problem may be what and how we are taught. Sure, they teach proper diets in school, but if your parents eat fried chicken and mashed potatoes every night (you get the idea) then how are their kids going to eat? On the subject of school, MOST school lunches are a joke. Serving chicken nuggets and tater tots with iceburg lettuce is hardly a balanced meal. Besides, most kids in my old high school would bypase the normal lunch line in favor of the "other" line. I'm talking little debbies, nachos, little pizza's etc.....Obviously the problem starts at a very young age.

Supplements are great if you live a busy life and need a little help. The key with that is to keep vitamins in their place. Sounds funny, but it's true. Vitamins should be looked at as secondary sources. Things like fish oil are great, but you should be able to get enough vitamin A and other such things from what you eat, not from expensive pills. We could argue all day about this subject, but not accomplish anything. If you want to be healthy get MOST of your nutrients from whole foods, and use supplements how they should be, as a SUPPLEMENTAL source. //end rant


Anyway,
da_sense posted:

Secondly it has also be found that taking 200-500mg of Vitamin C per day is definetly a good thing.

Any sources for this info? Just curious as I have never heard this before, and I think those people who pump themselves full of vitamin c are a little off.

Also, I am a very serious athlete and I don't require any extra supplements. The only non-whole foods I take are:
bee pollen
cliff shots energy gels(endurance & recovery)they are also organic

Other than that I get everything I need from fruits, veggies, meats, legumes, etc...

 

[markusgoneawry]

i found a great site on this topic.. here's some selected bits

Supplements are not needed if a variety of foods are eaten. Taking in more nutrients than the body needs does not give added energy, more brain power or greater protection against disease.

...

Research from a decade ago suggested that taking antioxidant supplements might help protect against cancer. However, newer findings from clinical studies indicate that taking antioxidant pills does not offer protection against cancer, and may even do some harm. On the other hand, eating lots of food rich in antioxidants, such as green vegetables, citrus fruits, deep-orange colored produce as well as other types of fruits and vegetables has been shown to be protective

...

Very high doses of many vitamins such as A, C, D and B-6, as well as several minerals, can cause serious health problems if taken regularly. Excesses of one nutrient may cause nutritional imbalances or increase the need for other nutrients.

http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/foodnut/09338.html

Frizz,

That is a great site link for this thread. Let me clear up something, when I refer to nutritional supplements, I am NOT just referring to vitamins. I am also talking about protein, creatine, fish oil, etc. etc.. For a serious athlete looking to optimize their performance, there is no way to get enough creatine through diet, and one may find it very difficult to consume enough protein also (it is argued that 1g of protein per lb of body weight is ideal for athletes looking to optimize muscle growth).

Cheers.