Sudden negative mood swings while rolling

[malaise]

Short story:
I experience sudden and uncomfortable "mood swings" while rolling on MDMA or methylone. This only started happening after having a short but intense panic attack on MDMA. Any insight into what's going on here?


Long story:
I'd had about five nice experiences taking MDMA, each at least two weeks apart and often much longer, and then I tripped alone for the first time. I was swimming ecstatically in a lake and out of nowhere had this moment of pure dread where I thought that I was going to die. I was sitting on a rock, and the wind was very calm, and I'm an excellent swimmer anyhow, so it wasn't some fear of drowning. It was just a panic attack, basically. For a while, I blamed this experience on being alone and taking crappy MDMA, or maybe getting a little too high, but now I'm wondering if the problem lies elsewhere.

Ever since then, my highs have always been tainted somehow. A few months later, I was watching a charming and hilarious movie, feeling super high and excellent. Then, without warning, the euphoria gave way to a very uncomfortable feeling. I said to my partner, with a note of minor panic, "I feel really weird!" It reminds me of a movie scene in which the character's at a party, then something bad happens and the music and laughter fade away, and everything feels strange. With negative overtones, sometimes almost sinister, but not a panic attack.

This also happens on methylone, which I've been using since MDMA quality has been so unreliable. Even with a lower dose, this "mood swing" will happen at least once. A few weeks ago, I was happily chatting with a laundromat owner about his dog and was hit with a really negative feeling out of the blue. Like, "I don't want to be here. I need to get out of here." I quickly put my clothes in the dryer so that I could leave.

Has anyone else experienced this? Sorry if this has been talked about before, but this is as hard to search for as it is to describe. I just want to understand what's happening. I've tried to quietly observe it, remaining calm and allowing it to pass. I'm getting better at dealing with it, but the last time I took methylone, the oscillations between warm-fuzzy-high and weird-negative-high was almost too much. I'd rather have a wicked comedown or hangover than deal with negative feelings during the peak! I was still feeling rapid (but obviously not intense) mood oscillations 5-6 hours later.

Maybe relevant: I wouldn't describe myself as "neurotypical". I experience anxiety and sometimes depression, but don't require treatment at this point in my life (as far as I'm concerned). I never have panic attacks. My mood is otherwise quite stable. I never feel anxious about experiencing these "mood swings" before or while taking these drugs.

 

[pair of rollers]

I'm no expert by any means, but could it be you psyching yourself out? The mind is a powerful thing, and sometimes just thinking you MIGHT have a bad experience, can lead to a negative feeling somewhere.

Sorry if that's not much help, but I've never experienced anything like that.

 

[pbuilder]

Sounds like anxiety / panic attack to me. This is what psycho-active drugs can do to your brain, they can bring out disorders and what not.

The first 4-5 times I did blow for examples I loved it, I know lots of people that after long periods of use always talked about the anxiety after and almost feeling like killing yourself while you are still awake at 8am in the morning but without anymore coke. So anyways, it was like my 5th or 6th time using blow, and probabley the most I've done (still not more than .6g at most), and I'm still up with a buddy who's a big blow head at 10am in the morning and we decided to go to a driving range and T-off and right when we get their and the sun hits me, I all of a sudden just felt SOOO bad. I was like woah.... wtfff... I just wanna go home and crawl into my bed in the fetal position, like suddenly all my problems hit me and it was just a completely opposite state of euphora, I believe it is referred to as "dysphoria". So ever since that time I always have had bad come-downs on coke, that only started after that first time it happened. I guess I over did it that time and it just sorta brought a new, much worse angle to the coke.

Since this happened I've done coke about 5-7 more times and have always had really sh*tty sudden anxiety attacks (its what I call them, just plain dyphoria and panic is how to describe) after about the 6-8 hour mark of the night if I've been doing blow. A few times I even had the anxiety type of thing in between lines after like the first hour only(but it goes away after another line, its like weeeooahh big line I feel great, and 20 minutes later, anxiety attack need more coke or im gonna die), it's really sad that is has started to happen

Anyways, I think it is most likely the drug has broughten out a mild mental disorder revolving around anxiety that was sort of just locked in ur brain or whatever. I'd recommend maybe a small dose of a long lasting benzo if you are planning to pop m, and take it just before you do so.

 

[malaise]

pbuilder, that sounds so awful. I'm sorry. I definitely experienced a moment of "dysphoria" swimming in the lake, although it went back to euphoria after a few minutes. I can always get back to a normal high if I just change my setting or ride it out. It's a totally weird feeling. I don't even know if I would describe it as anxiety. I'm tempted to roll again just to find better adjectives to describe it! But you may be right. It could be some strange chemical manifestation of my anxiety in a way that I'm not used to.

I don't have access to benzos, but I've been considering looking into them, if only to deal with bad or excessively long comedowns (like on acid). Thanks for the insight.

 

[Nottamous]

That first experience of panic during your roll. . . do you often think about that as you're preparing or dropping your rolls? In other words, do you think it's possible that you, at some point during your subsequent rolls bring yourself back to that first sense of panic?

My initial impression is along the same lines as "Pair of Rollers" suggested, that you are simply creating a sense of panic, most likely stemming from your anxiety that you may relive that first time you where utterly paniced. You're worried you might get that dread again and thus that worry itself manifests the dread. Is this a possibility or does it simply come out of no where with no precursor thoughts? It can be difficult to rectify a situation like this because naturally trying to consciously avoid thinking about something you're consciously trying to avoid thinking about pretty much ensures you're thinking about it. It's a tricky thing. If this is the case you would want help from some very trusted friends in a setting you feel utterly safe and comfortable in. We can discuss this later if you think this might be the case. (and others may have great ideas here as well)

If this isn't the case let us know and we'll talk it out further.

 

[MrHH]

In my opinion, if this anxiety is away on normal circumstances, this is a lack of integrating experiences. It should be gone with some months away from chemicals and light meditation about the situation.

If the problem persists after this period, you should consider stop doing drugs to avoid the risk of moving this behavior into your day-to-day. If this happen, look a psychologist to search the source of the anxiety. He will purpose you many ways of changing what you both identify.

Remember that this is a warning. Anxiety most of the times is easily handled when properly addressed, in other words, don't worry but have a look at it! Otherwise it may go worst with the time.

Hope you feel better soon so you're able to enjoy your experiences again!

 

[malaise]

The panic attack seems to have triggered these negative moments, but I almost never consciously think about it. I can recognise the chemical nature of these responses, so they don't actually make me that anxious. I know that I could talk myself out of another panic attack.

I mean, when I first got bad vibes during my most recent experience, I was in a safe space, talking to one of my closest friends about puppies. WTF? I just kind of ignored the feeling and it passed.

I'll meditate on this some more (although I'm much too curious about my own pscyhe to give up drugs for months at a time). Thank you both for your kind responses!

 

[First Bad Comedown]

Serotonin inhibits dopamine, although it is primarily used to drive intestinal motility.
Smooth muscle lining the intestines contain the vast majority of all serotonin and its receptors.

One of the way that serotonin derives its effects is to suppress LOTS of dopamine.
This causes an imbalance of dopamine and a massive surge of cortisol.
Once the peak has occurred cortisol begins to taper along with serotonin.
This drop in serotonin allows a spring-back reaction of dopamine release.
All the pathways that were denied normal dopamine transmission suddenly push forward...
And the most important, the meso-limbic, experiences a massive wave of dopamine that is central to the entire experience.
Although MDMA is primarily a serotonin releaser, it is the dopamine releasing effects that are really appreciated.
The serotonin releasing effects are pretty unpleasant on their own.

Prolactin and oxytocin coincide with dopamine to create a very magical experience that is unlike other pure dopamine releasers.

You are NOT the first person to have a serotonin trip to turn on them.
Although you thankfully do not describe panic attacks or serotonin syndrome, which I have had, you ARE describing a sudden shift in dopamine.
My theory...

Your intestines begin contracting.
In a normal person this causes negligible changes in brain serotonin and dopamine, but in this compromised network of a regular MDMA or methylone user the effects are not predictable. Different portions of the intestines are linked to different regions of the brain, and some of these movements are pretty undetectable in the lower GI.
Serotonin begins surging in an off-balance manner - inhibiting dopamine in one or more brain regions.
At the same time bloodflow to these brain regions is increased above what the rest of the brain is receiving.
Serotonin is a powerful modulator of rCBV or regional cerebral blood volume.

Be glad that your reaction was not more severe, because a large enough shift can cause a MAJOR dopamine imbalance and even stroke.
This is a risk factor for the onset of very long-term psychotic disorders!

You have received a sign that your serotonin network, the most dense and intricate neurotransmitter system in the whole brain, is compromised.
Also called the 'brain-gut' circuitry, it is not as resilient as the dopamine network especially in the frontal lobes and Prefrontal Cortex.
The PFC is where damage occurs first and the least recovery can be seen over time.
This is because the serotonin nerves are thin and fiber like.
They are axonal projections from distant serotonin cell bodies.

A loss of serotonin in the PFC is a very bad thing and can lead to major sexual dysfunction and regular emotion processing.
I urge you to consider this a very big deal, even though you seem to be in control.
My experience says that many MDMA users do not feel all the effects of their drug use until many months of abstinence.
And even 4 years is not enough to restore 'magic' in some users - a clear sign that the brain is being rewired and endocrine function is compromised!

If nothing else, you were feeling an unsual rise in cortisol, which is a definite sign of sudden serotonin activity.
Possibly digestion.

I had digestive issues while rolling and it turned out VERY badly for me after my first mini-binge.
I nearly died from Serotonin Syndrome and I am still recovering 14 months later!
And MANY MANY times throughout the year, and even now, I can become very suddenly uncomfortable.
I will go from feeling normal or even good to quite irritated and unable to deal with noise, especially people speaking directly to me.
This happens even with my wife and little girl...

Listen to your body - stop doing drugs.
Serotonin releasers damage the SERT by destroying axons.
Some recovery will occur, but MDMA is a potent neurotoxin.
It causes a 'lasting reorganization of the ascending axonal structure, leaving higher cortical regions with lesser density."

Got it?

FBC

 

[F1n1shed]

FBC speaks the truth, we are speaking from experience. The high is not worth the pain it is starting to cause you. I skimmed through your post, but that definitely sounds like anxiety. Many MDMA users go through it, anxiety is strongly correlated with serotonin. Low serotonin levels will almost always make a person more anxious that's a proven fact. Now, methylone and MDMA are both potent serotonin releasers and both pretty much trash for your brain. They are great experiences, but not worth the side effects. You now know you have an onset of an anxiety disorder rising, you can choose to stop taking these hard serotonergic drugs. Or you can continue damaging your brain for a 5 hour high. It's as simple as that

 

[malaise]

Thanks, you two. The idea that it might be a dangerous chemical issue rather than something that my head made up is very compelling (although I've worked in neuroscience and don't entirely buy the scaremongering about MDMA + brain damage). You've convinced me to be more cautious with my drug use.

 

[maxxsskip]

ive had a crazy bad feelings at rave, when 3 people with me on the same molly were FLOOORED and it made me feel like i was too floored. but i moved away from my group to ignore their fucked upness and i was fine after that.

 

[First Bad Comedown]

If you have 'worked in neuroscience' and actually know about research....you would be informed enough to avoid terms like 'scaremongering'.

Scientists can clearly demonstrate that MDMA kills neurons in a culture.
And in living brains, from rodents to primates, it is proven that high repeated doses causes permanent changes in the serotonin network. And death in a portion of subjects.

Human data backs up the idea that MDMA is neurotoxic, even in casual users that don't use other drugs.
And heavier users exhibit obvious signs of lowered serotonin function.
Equating this to other forms of 'brain damage' can be called inaccurate for sure, but the term 'scaremongering' is an immature assertion that the wealth of data is invalid. Somehow generated by propaganda...

Trust me, it is neurotoxic.
And any smart individual can feel the toxic aftereffects if they only care to pay attention.
It is one of the reasons that pre and post-loading exists!

I have enough experience listening to immature opinions of college students and teenagers who think they know everything...
And counseling those who truly suffer...

Only a minority of people experience what they refer to as 'brain damage' from MDMA.
The rest of users tend to ignore the symptoms and arguably do not feel as much distress as a result of them.

Clinical evidence exists to suggest that previous cannabis use is a strong predictor for the level of emotional and psychological suffering among this minority of MDMA users.
The heavier and more regular a smoker you are, the more severe your 'brain damage'.

Whether or not you are truly panicking, you are describing dissociation or Dp/Dr.
This is not common with your level of use, so this suggests that you could be more susceptible than other users to 'brain damage'.
If this is true, it is wise for you to drop the know-it-all attitude and accept the FACT that many of the world's best neuroscientists have PROVEN MDMA to be neurotoxic.
Regardless of whether or not the 'toxicity' can be verbally equated with 'brain damage'!

Stop taking neurotoxic drugs, lest you join the tortured minority.

 

[Muffins11]

I've had negative mood swings before when I start to think about the comedown but I always shoot right back up after a couple minutes

 

[malaise]

If you have 'worked in neuroscience' and actually know about research....

You've clearly had some bad experiences which have given you a sense of urgency in describing the dangers of MDMA use to others. However, you've effectively closed my mind to your opinions by calling me a know-it-all (talk about projection) and denigrating my experience and knowledge as a scientist. So you can read articles and scientific papers? That's great. Yes, MDMA is a neurotoxin. So is alcohol. I consider myself a responsible drug user, and I can make my own decisions. Also, I'm not a smoker. Thanks.

 

[First Bad Comedown]

I have read books written by 'neuroscience' PhDs that failed to reach even my simplest expectations.
It left me with the impression that it is a field with room for less 'scientific' critical thinkers.
Perhaps they were bad examples - there are exceptions in every field.
And there is no reason such a field should not exist.

I actually have something in common with these people, because I do something similar - drawing from research performed by chemists, biologists, neurologists, clinicians and trying to derive meaning from their work.

But a neuroscience major is not necessarily as qualified as the medical doctors and neurologists, especially the ones doing clinical work on the serotonin system.

My 'urgency' is indeed influenced by my most extreme reaction to MDMA.
But it is also based on more than a year of communicating with others on BL.
There have been at least 30 different sufferers that have sought me ought for help, some of them with very disturbing symptoms. They come to me because BL is full of users that DISMISS the reality of neurotoxicity.
Kinda like you are doing, but much worse.

At least you have a level of respect for the general findings - many do not.
They suggest every cause they can think of - adulterants, genetics, pre-existing conditions, and simple lack of emotional discipline during recovery!

But lets not mention the clearest principle derived from decades of MDMA research - REDOSING causes more and more toxicity. And rolling consecutive days in a row is VERY damaging.
For a 'harm reduction' forum, there is a surprising lack of maturity and understanding about the most basic things.

A 'potent neurotoxin' should be considered the primary cause.
Yet even in your case you seem to belittle the risk despite moderate and repeated Dp/Dr that occurs in the absence of the drug...

Alcohol is a neurotoxin as well, one that has done PLENTY of damage in our world.
I'm glad you brought it up.
Isn't 'redosing' the primary risk factor with this neurotoxin as well?
I would say so - long-term use causes brain atrophy, primarily in the glial brain.
Because of this it destroys nerve growth factors, essentially shutting down adult neurogenesis.

You invoke alcohol as a justification for using a MUCH more potent toxin.
That in itself illustrates a level of denial.

Do you think the worlds smartest MDMA researchers really make such a comparison?
I doubt it - MDMA is not a drug they would touch regardless of how 'responsible' they might consider the dose.
Obviously there are exceptions and even some controversial researchers, but some of the most respected intellects in the field believe that one day we may discover that ANY use beyond the first few experiences will produce detectable and lasting changes in the brain.

Just because the consequences are unknown and may even appear to be mild, does not reduce the level of concern.
Not yet.

Not being a smoker is a great choice and will reduce your level of risk with MDMA.
You are more responsible than most MDMA users simply for that reason.
I am not projecting my own experience as much as I'm projecting that of others I have observed here.

If you are indeed aware of the fact that MDMA is a toxin, and you are experiencing strange symptoms as a result of using it...

Why are you here on BL asking for advice?
Why aren't you already familiar with Dp/Dr and the protracted recovery of receptor sites in the serotonin system?
What did you expect to gain from this thread?

Only long-term abstinence restores innervation, and maybe only partially.
You already know what to do, and I imagine you were going to do it on your own.
But you were hoping for some kind of scientific explanation for what is happening to you.

Well, I'm the closest you are going to get around here.
Trust me, there is no other member that gives a damn about analyzing symptoms and assigning cause and reason.
I am it.

Sorry you didn't like my strong opinions.
You are not the first.

For the record I recognize how uncomfortable your experiences must be and it is not my intention to insult you.
My 'urgency' often comes with a measure of condescending tone.
Any information you have on MDMA from your experience in neuroscience would be appreciated.

And do BL a favor - return later on when your symptoms subside.
Find this thread and post a follow-up.
You would be surprised how many posters fail to do this.
Good luck.

 

[F1n1shed]

FBC hasn't only had bad experiences, he's paid close attention to his emotions and personality as i have. And noticed how easily this chemical can change people. You bringing up alcohol being a neurotoxin as well as MDMA is a classic on this site. People always compare them even though they hardly know the differences of how they effect the brain. Sure they are both toxic to some degree, but that degree is what matters. MDMA being the potent neurotoxin to your most delicate neurons - serotonin. Did you really learn things from your studies in neuro science, it seems like your lacking some information : o

 

[malaise]

I wasn't meaning to justify the abuse of either MDMA or alcohol, nor compare them. I was just trying to make the point that something being "neurotoxic" is not a very compelling reason to avoid it. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

I've never abused MDMA, and I've never experienced what you label as Dp/Dr (not sure that I would agree) in the absence of the drug. However, if these fleeting negative moments on the drug persist and especially if they get worse, then I probably won't be doing the drug very much anyway... just like how I don't drink much, because I don't like how alcohol makes me feel.

Your condescending tone is really the only problem. I otherwise appreciate your scientific presentation. Neuroscience was not my major, but I agree that it's a very soft science, and my experiences have made me very critical of any "conclusive" findings about the brain. Even with compelling evidence that MDMA "reorganises" the brain, is that enough reason not to take the drug? For me, no. My first experience with MDMA was life-altering in the best possible way. Before that, I had never felt real self-worth before. The feeling continued long after the drugs were out of my system. MDMA and other drugs have helped me unlock and discover critical parts of myself. They have immeasurably improved my quality of life. I don't mind suffering a little brain damage for that.

I probably won't take any more drugs until the summer, but if I suffer from serious dissociation or if I have a totally smooth roll at that time, I'll certainly report back.