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Substance Legalization Discussion.

Foreigner

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I'm for sure in favour of at least decriminalizing drugs, if not outright legalizing them. Portugal and Spain have shown us that it benefits society.

When arguing with my opponents about it, the major obstacle I come across is how to justify legalization of highly addictive and destructive substances like crystal meth or crack. There aren't really many benefits to talk about in terms of those ones.

The best I can get them to admit is that some legalization would be okay, but not all.

I don't think drug possession of any kind should be a criminal offense, but when I think of legalization I think of tobacco or alcohol which are basically over the counter substances. Would we really want to see meth or crack being OTC?

I'm just wondering how you all tackle this aspect of the debate?

(P.S. I'm not judging crack or meth users at all here.)
 
Well I think that practicality is what advanced society should shoot for, and legalization would essentially solve the problems that drugs create as much as it can be through those means. I mean, this forum is about harm reduction, as what we ostensibly want government to be about. The point I'm trying to make is that nothing will completely solve the problems that drugs create, but legalization is projected to solve them the most. We can't get to perfection, but we can get closer to it.

The main argument in my mind against legalization is that it might create millions of docile individuals (degenerates) who want to do nothing but get high.

Meth and Cocaine were once upon a time over-the-counter, accessible to literally anyone, and we didn't see a huge epidemic, but its safe to say not so many people knew about these drugs back then as information traveled much slower and less widely. Computers are quite the thing.
 
When arguing with my opponents about it, the major obstacle I come across is how to justify legalization of highly addictive and destructive substances like crystal meth or crack. There aren't really many benefits to talk about in terms of those ones.

Sure there is. Legalizing these drugs would make them more affordable, hence addicts won't have to steal/prostitute countless hundreds of dollars for a day's high.

Then, every addict could afford to get to the breaking point with crack/meth, meaning they would get to the point where the drug doesn't even work right anymore, and this will encourage users to quit.

The way the system is set up, addicts rarely get to this breaking point without having tons of money or an uncanny ability to come up with money on an on-demand basis, and it keeps people in an active addiction, as they won't get to the breaking point, and the drug will retain the euphoric addictive value.

Also, some people can handle using crack/meth without getting addicted. Just like some people can handle heroin without getting addicted.

Should driving be illegal because of drunk drivers? Should flying a plane be illegal because a few pilots were getting drunk before flying a plane? Should having kids be illegal because some people beat/pimp out their kids? Should interpersonal relationships be illegal because some men beat women? Should we not legally be allowed access to our parents when they get old because some elderly experience elder abuse? Should we not only ban guns because people get shot, but knives because people get cut? Should we ban all pharmaceuticals that have addictive properties just because some people get addicted?

There's no need to stop living life as we know it TBPH.
 
I was really hoping as the kids of the 60's and 70's got in positions of power, at least pot would be legalized. Yea, I know it's pseudo legal in a few states but they still have a black cloud called the Federal government hanging over their heads. This is very disappointing to me. As for me, I'm older than most on these boards and I'd love to see it legal but I'm not even sure I'd use it personally. I really loved it back in the day but these days, just not sure. However, my personal choices aside, I still feel like it's something that should be available. Other drugs, not sure. I will say that the fact that drugs like herion, crack, coke etc. would have some quality control and be much more consistent for users would be a wonderful thing. Also, the government would have the tax revenue to use for education or whatever. I also think it would seriously cut down the crime rate. Unfortunately, I just don't see the old farts in power ever allowing things like that to be legal, as much common sense as it makes. Hell, we can't even get pot legalized federally and that should already have taken place IMO. Tough call but I doubt it'll happen in the next 20 years (or my lifetime).
 
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I think it's really simple.

Alcohol and tobacco kill more than 500,000 people a year in the US alone.

The argument that it's 'for public safety' that we have drugs illegal is not really what it's about.

Illegal drugs only cause a fraction of of the overdoses compared to legal prescription drugs and alcohol. Something like 10,000 a year.

And with illegal drugs, the real stumbling block is knowing the drugs purity. The 10,000 deaths per year could be avoided by making it legal and standardized, and affordable as C.H pointed out. This is harm reduction.

Meth IS bad for lots of people but not everyone has a problem with it. I've never seen anyone use it without getting into trouble (but you wouldn't notice the ones that don't anyway right?). At any rate, they're not criminals. They're addicted and that is a health / medical issue IMO. Police don't have any place in that equation in a free society. Which of course we don't have.

Legalizing weed will reduce drug deaths because people actually use cocaine and heroin and meth because its gone from your system in three to five days and they stay away from weed, which is actually a neuro-protectant. In fact, marijuana is good for you in most cases. Aside from the few people I know that smoke two hits and demand I stay with them and play psychedelic guitar for hours... as if they're tripping and need a babysitter, but they're schizophrenic. And they are fine afterwards.

It has been shown to help schizophrenia though, but high sativa strains should be avoided by those people. It's the cannabidiol (which actually counters the effects of THC which itself is a partial agonist) which relieves anxiety which means they should smoke schwag instead of super trippy sativas (my fav).

they don't want to legalize pot because they see that as an erosion of the whole black op funding mechanism the US empire's been using to control the world. That and it is estimated that it could replace 80% of all prescriptions and so, well, no billions of dollars in profit for bad drugs 'cause you can grow it in your kitchen window. So I just point the prohibitionists toward the reality of it actually being the "safest, most therapeutic substance ever discovered (according to admninistrative law judge Francis L Young) and watch them squirm because we're winning this fight. If it was Columbia that had legalized weed and cocaine, you can be sure the "failed state" argument would be used and we'd launch another war. But this time, the 'failed' states are CO and WA... might be a bit of a stretch to try and convince America that we need to invade Colorado and Washington.

I'm convinced that within my lifetime (I'm 51 and have cystic fibrosis so long life isn't in the cards, I'll be lucky to make it to 65), it will be essentially legalized to the point that growing a room full of pot will be safe because in about five years, unless you're doing something really stupid and obviously dangerous to the community, no jury will convict you for using the safest drug on the planet.
 
If alcohol is addictive and legal, I see no reason why other addictive substances such as meth, crack, heroin, etc. shouldn't be.
 
Should Heroin Be Legal

Hey guys,

I'm writing a paper about drug legalization, and would like some input from people who have used/been addicted to opiates. I've used many drugs like molly, k, ghb, weed, amps, coke, probably a few more, but never any opiates to the point where I felt the effects.

I personally believe that drugs should be legal. I believe it goes against our rights to have gov be able to tell us what we can and can't put in our bodies. I'm a big believer in education and harm reduction, because I don't think prohibition significantly reduces use, and its extremely inefficient and ruins countless lives, yada yada yada.

Here's the basic overview of how I would legalize drugs: I wouldn't legalize drugs so that they could be sold at the corner store. I would make people get a drug license (same idea as getting a gun license) where they have to complete a short course about basic pharmacology, and then for each additional drug someone wants to be able to purchase, they would have to complete a separate course for that and get that specific license. The courses would be unbiased and promote hard reduction. Overall you wouldn't be able to buy a large amount of drugs at one time.

The one thing that my model doesn't yet account for, is how to deal with opiates. I know they have to be legal in some way, to reduce the risk of HIV, lower the price so addicts wouldn't have to steal/prostitute to afford it... possibly give it away for free to addicts (but this obviously brings about various problems). Lots of the revenue from legalized drugs could go towards treatment or drug addicts. My first thought would be to sell morphine instead of heroin, as its slightly less addictive. Obviously opiod antagonists would be sold/given away to reduce OD deaths. I'm not sure how exactly the system should work because I have no experience and have never known anyone who has used opiates. What would be best and how would you integrate recovery?

So my question is: How would you go about legalizing opiates? The goal is to treat users and addicts compassionately while also trying to reduce use.

I welcome any and all critisisms, and apologize if I sound ignorant. I also welcome any comments on how having opiates illegal affected your usage or what effect it had on your life good or bad. Any experience with law enforcement surrounding opiates is also welcomed.
Thanks in advance guys
 
Just out of curiosity, why would they need to complete a course about pharmacology? What's the point of that/what's it supposed to help or prevent or whatever?

I'm confused as to why you're putting opiates in a seperate category. If I could pick, I'd objectively legalise heroin before cocaine any day. It's much less damaging for your health and as a general rule people do much less harmful shit on it.
Also IV users =/ only opiate users, at all. And once again, other drugs are way more damaging on the veins than opiates. So the HIV risk etc. is not only present for heroin users.

I don't think heroin should be legal. I've got lots of arguments for that that I don't really have time to go into right now but a basic one would be that if people were on H all the time, the world would crumble from the inactivity. However I'm not singling heroin out at all. Drug laws today are here for a reason, and although a lot of them I find too strict/I disagree with, I do think most of them are sensible.

It's an interesting paper but I think your main issue is that you're singling opiates out too much. Addictive potential aside, they're actually surprisingly okay for you compared to a ton of other drugs. It sounds to me like you're abiding by the 'heroin as the absolute most dangerous drug in the world' cliché a bit too much (that's not a criticism, I guess it's normal if you don't have any opi experience/don't know anyone who does) :)

Ah, last thought - I think there's a bit of a problem with the 'Lots of the revenue from legalized drugs could go towards treatment or drug addicts' idea. The problem is, if drugs are legal people aren't gonna use responsibly. I mean some people will, but the vast majority won't because the truth is, the vast majority of people don't have enough willpower (or whatever it is...and I'm including myself in that obviously) to do that. If you had super easy and legal access to a drug that would make you feel like the happiest person in the world, would you really manage to stay away from it and control yourself?
The number of drug addicts would be massive.
:\
 
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Hi boomer, welcome to Bluelight.

In my personal opinion, the legalization of drugs would cause a rise in use rather than a fall (in the first few years at least). Sudden access to things that were illegal would cause many to over do it and send their use out of control.

The idea of getting a license for the drug you want to take would have the potential to be abused much like the cannabis prescriptions they currently have in place in the US.

The one thing that my model doesn't yet account for, is how to deal with opiates. I know they have to be legal in some way, to reduce the risk of HIV, lower the price so addicts wouldn't have to steal/prostitute to afford it

How does legalization fix any of these problems? In my experience, regardless of how easy it is to get needles/opiates people are still willing to overlook basic health and safety when in the grips of a binge. And a lower price doesn't mean that an addict won't run out of money at one point and have to resort to theft/prostitution to get their next fix and not be sick.

Legalization would not change the public opinion of addicts and there would be backlash over why we're spending money to treat those who don't want to quit. The spending of the revenue would become debatable and would most likely be diverted to other coffers.
 
Thanks for the replies guys. I'm surprised you don't share my view on ending prohibition. Basically I'm singling out opiates out of ignorance and because I have tons of friends who have used pretty much every other type of drug without much trouble. None got addicted and most did so at least somewhat responsibly.

A basic pharm course would just be to give people an idea of how drugs act in your body. Just a basic overview of neurotransmitters, the brain, pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics. I find many people really have no idea what happens when a drug enters their body, and how it gets to the brain and has an effect.

I do realize that heroin and morphine are non-toxic, but I would still argue that they are more dangerous (when IV) than any other drug. Highly toxic drugs like MDMA (debatably) are less harmful because they have a low addiction potential. People use them for abit, get bored of them, and move on. Opiates have a much higher rate of people getting caught up and relapsing throughout their life. And I'll admit i honestly have no idea how many people who use drugs like heroin do so on a recreational basis and how many become addicts, and how many of the addicts are able to quit and live a normal life afterwards. The class this is for is a pharmacology class and the prof studies addiction, and he mentioned how being addicted to opiates causes your cortisol axis to be thrown off, and he would recommend maintaining people on atleast methadone (and even some people on heroin, who are resistant to treatment, as they do in the UK)

You bring up a good point about wasting money on treating addicts who don't want treatment. Again I'm ignorant about how many addicts would want treatment. My intuition is that at some point most addicts would want help, but only when things get "bad".

I disagree with your point that if heroin were legal everyone would want to do it. Just from my experience with me and my friends, although we love doing all types of drugs, we hold extreme drugs like heroin and meth in a different category. If someone ever suggested trying it we would shoot it down right away. And we would be considered "druggies" by alot of people. Basically I don't think use would rise more than a few percent because most people are scared/not interested in it, for the same reason a lot of people don't smoke cigs. I'd assume anyone who really wanted to find a certain drug would be able to find it, regardless of its legal status.

Overall I just feel that the costs of fighting the unwinnable drug war, both here and abroad (Mexico and South America have been hit hard with tens of thousands of murders in recent years). I just don't think locking people up for using drugs is the right policy, and a huge waste of money. And large sentences don't stop dealers because there's just to much money. A new approach is necessary.
 
Decriminalization of Marijuana is something that has proven to help some aspects of a community.
Decriminalization or legalization of heroin and other opiates would be a disaster.
Think of how many deaths would occur.. Not a good vision imo.
 
Why are heroin and morphine more dangerous when IV'ed than other drugs?
IV cocaine is considered by a lot of people to be way more addictive than IV heroin (I know I keep mentioning coke, but it's just the easiest example that comes to mind).

I'm not sure if you were talking to me or RD about the 'if heroin were legal everyone would want to do it' point...I feel like you're talking to me though so I should just make clear that I didn't mean that. It's more that everyone who tries it and likes it, will continue doing it. And most people who try it like it.
The difference with, say, cigs, is that most people have smoked at least one cigarette in their life, be it only out of curiosity. Lots of them decided not to continue for health concerns, money concerns, etc etc. But the number of people who try heroin just once and walk away from it is very, very small indeed. And if everyone could have access to it I'm sure a very large number of people would wanna try it out just to see how it feels.
And yeah, if you reaaaally wanted a drug you wouldn't care if it were legal or not, but I know a ton of people who'd gladly try pretty much any drug on the face of the planet if it were readily available and legal. They just don't want to to the point of going through the system as it is.

I agree a new approach is necessary. I think it would need to be thought out a LOT though. Like, a lot. And I still don't think opies should be singled out. Especially considering that they make people so much more tame (while on them) than the current legal drug that is alcohol, for instance.
And I'm saying all this as a heroin addict who's taken plenty of the drugs you mentioned as well.
 
Decriminalization of Marijuana is something that has proven to help some aspects of a community.
Decriminalization or legalization of heroin and other opiates would be a disaster.
Think of how many deaths would occur.. Not a good vision imo.

People of this earth need to take back responsibility for their lives. Just because a substance is decriminalized doesn't mean people should do it. People need to stop relying on the government to decide what they should or should not do. and by decriminalization I don't mean legalization, I mean no jail time for addicts/users, money for drug rehabilitation, at the very least a pathway out of prison for people who choose to clean up and maintain it and the destruction of any criminal record for drugs.
 
This is a really tough question and one I've given some thought to as a former heroin addict.

I mean, one option is to go with a model like in some European countries where one can get legally prescribed heroin (although this seems to be becoming less and less common) if you are already addicted and haven't been able to quit through the usual methods (detox, methadone, etc). But in practice only a small fraction of heroin users are prescribed the drug and it does little, if anything, to stop the illegal drug trade. For example in London there are maybe around 100 people prescribed heroin, yet some estimates of the number of heroin users in the London area have been as high as 50,000-100,000, with at least 1000 new heroin addicts each year. However a lot of the problems may be because the prescription system is poorly implemented, a lot of which I believe is due to pressure from the US. Still, even a well-implemented more easily accessible heroin prescription program would not solve the problems that come with illicit heroin use for new users or users who don't meet the requirements, unless you went with a program with very little requirements where physical dependence wasn't even a prerequisite.

I like your idea of an approach that emphasizes harm reduction and recovery, while making heroin available in order to reduce many of the adverse consequences of it being illegal. However, there are still some potential issues with a formalized licensing process. I don't know if a lot of heroin users would like the idea of being on a government list of registered heroin users. And how would people be prevented from just selling their heroin to others? I think the whole thing with methadone programs in the US forcing people to go into for daily supervised ingestion is demeaning and adversely impacts the lives of methadone patients, and it would seem even less practical for heroin since the vast majority of people can't just use heroin once a day if they are physically dependent. So I don't like the idea of people being forced to only use their heroin under supervision at a clinic, but I also don't like the idea of people just getting a bunch of heroin to take home that they can then cut and sell on the black market. Personally I think I'd prefer the possibility of diversion over extremely strict rules a la methadone though.

How to integrate recovery...? I would say that might be very difficult in the US (I'm assuming that is where you live and are referring to? BL is an international forum), because drug companies don't care about people, they are sociopathic entities. If a pharmaceutical company gets a license to produce heroin, and the clinics/pharmacies/wherever they sell it are for-profit, then they would have no real interest in helping anyone get off of it. There are such enormous problems already with opioid maintenance programs, including (among many other things) people being deceived about dependence liability and people being encouraged to stay on methadone/Suboxone forever. I think that things would have to radically change.

If we are coming up with some utopian situation where anything is possible, I would say that a good start would be that people who use drugs like heroin should be treated with respect and compassion and there should be a huge support network to help them in many aspects of their lives, which at the same time is not forced upon them against their will (not rules like "going to the specific government approved meetings 3 times a week is a requirement in order to get your drugs"). This would be very costly initially and would require an individualized approach. If we had the ability to do something like this we should have the ability to reduce a lot of the problems which cause people to become addicted to opiates (and/or stay that way), and reduce a lot of the harm that comes with it, in the first place.

I'm sorry, I'm probably not being that helpful. I am just pessimistic about ANY form of legal heroin use EVER happening in the US, let alone a form I would personally approve of.

I could talk about this subject all day, just going around in circles. I do believe though that the perfect should not be the enemy of the good and we really need something other than methadone and Suboxone being the only options for opiate addicts. I would be in favour of pretty much any form of legal access to heroin, morphine or hydromorphone, even if it was limited to people who have a serious physical dependence who did not find methadone effective. Not that people should be forced to go on methadone in order to eventually get prescribed a shorter-acting more effective opioid that has much less severe and much shorter-lasting withdrawals. I really think any of those drugs would be far better options than methadone if people were able to use them safely and legally.

Truly encouraging recovery, even without any form of legalized opiate use, is something that I believe will require major changes to society, politics, and the way opiate addicts are viewed/treated.

Ok I'll shut up for now :)

PS - I don't live in the US, I live in Canada, but I highly doubt it's going to happen here any time soon either, there is so much backlash to a simple study of 25 people being prescribed heroin. But the US? Never.



ETA: Pagey and people: legalized doesn't mean totally unregulated/anyone can get it!! And I STRONGLY doubt that heroin use would skyrocket if it were legalized and there is evidence to the contrary, considering that countries have legalized or decriminalized various drugs have declining rates of use. One of the reasons I wanted to try heroin was because it was illegal and there was so much hype and stigma surrounding it. And no one seems to be responding to the OP's ideas about harm reduction training, real honest education about the risks, easy access to HR supplies and Narcan, etc.
 
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I disagree with your point that if heroin were legal everyone would want to do it. Just from my experience with me and my friends, although we love doing all types of drugs, we hold extreme drugs like heroin and meth in a different category. If someone ever suggested trying it we would shoot it down right away. And we would be considered "druggies" by alot of people. Basically I don't think use would rise more than a few percent because most people are scared/not interested in it, for the same reason a lot of people don't smoke cigs. I'd assume anyone who really wanted to find a certain drug would be able to find it, regardless of its legal status.

You're thinking if heroin as it currently is. Illegal it is considered a different class of drugs, but if it were legal people would think of it differently. If you had been brought up in a world where heroin was legal you'd have a very different view on it.
 
ETA: Pagey and people: legalized doesn't mean totally unregulated/anyone can get it!! And I STRONGLY doubt that heroin use would skyrocket if it were legalized and there is evidence to the contrary, considering that countries have legalized various drugs have declining rates of use. [/hr]

I realise that but the OP mentioned needing to get a 'drug license' which sounds like something most people could achieve fairly easily. Apologies if I misunderstood.
Honestly I'm not really getting into the legalisation debate as such, I'm just trying to say that heroin shouldn't be considered in a category seperate from other drugs - but that we should also bear in mind that people don't have as much self-control as we'd like to think they do :\

Btw OP sorry if it sounds ilke I'm picking on you or something, I really don't mean it that way and as I said, I think this is quite a cool project, it's just the heroin vs. other drugs debate is one I tend to get passionate about haha.
 
I'm just trying to say that heroin shouldn't be considered in a category seperate from other drugs - but that we should also bear in mind that people don't have as much self-control as we'd like to think they do :\

True, opioids aren't an entirely seperate category, but they do have more physical dependence than a lot of drugs. People absolutely don't have good self-control when it comes to heroin, but I truly don't think legalization would worsen that situation at all. What do you envision as an alternative to the current situation with drugs like heroin then? Surely you can't think it's fine the way it is ;)
 
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