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Bupe Suboxone/Buprenorphine FAQ & Megathread v3; 2010 - 2022

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Mr.Scagnattie said:
There is no such thing as "life time PAWS". That is ridiculous. Even the idea of it lasting for years is foolish. With drugs like methadone and bupe the PAWS stage does last for a while, but it's months.. not years..
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I think people often confuse PAWS with how they felt pre-dependence. There was a reason you developed an addiction and became dependent on your DOC, and its most likely because you were not truly happy with your life. Of course you go back to feeling that way and are even more depressed because you remember how enjoyable it was to use your DOC. Granted PAWS has some legitimacy but I think it is too often a scapegoat for people who really are just miserable living a sober life.

If you developed an addiction, kicked it, but nothing else in your life has changed, you will likely relapse. You need something in your life to change, you cannot simply believe you can go back to a life you were unsatisfied with and not be overly tempted to use again. I suppose that is why suboxone can be helpful. You can still receive an opioid high, although minimal as it is, while being able to focus on things like saving money and improving your career and life. It is almost impossible when your only concern is making sure you are high and not sick while spending every dime on it. And you are clean in the sense that you will pass drug tests on suboxone (a big factor in the progression of my career).
 
Your soo right about that, if you quit subs has to be part of a complete lifestyle change. I only 8days but feeling better. If there wasnt a viscious heatwave would be feeling even better. My apt at 85 degrees at 11pm lol. Pawls what pawls my face is melting lol. If power goes out.????? ..........Have you heard the term Flatbush 90s? Its block war for real and bank right on my corner. They robbed it 5 mins after power went out during hurricane sandy. I ready this time and have two cops living in building now. You dont want any trouble at this address lol. Keep it moving. This is the summer of hell for me and only halfway done. Please just let me survive til the fall and I be back in action.
 
RTrain said:
I think people often confuse PAWS with how they felt pre-dependence. There was a reason you developed an addiction and became dependent on your DOC, and its most likely because you were not truly happy with your life. Of course you go back to feeling that way and are even more depressed because you remember how enjoyable it was to use your DOC. Granted PAWS has some legitimacy but I think it is too often a scapegoat for people who really are just miserable living a sober life.

If you developed an addiction, kicked it, but nothing else in your life has changed, you will likely relapse. You need something in your life to change, you cannot simply believe you can go back to a life you were unsatisfied with and not be overly tempted to use again. I suppose that is why suboxone can be helpful. You can still receive an opioid high, although minimal as it is, while being able to focus on things like saving money and improving your career and life. It is almost impossible when your only concern is making sure you are high and not sick while spending every dime on it. And you are clean in the sense that you will pass drug tests on suboxone (a big factor in the progression of my career).
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Good post, very true....
 
RTrain said:
I think people often confuse PAWS with how they felt pre-dependence. There was a reason you developed an addiction and became dependent on your DOC, and its most likely because you were not truly happy with your life. Of course you go back to feeling that way and are even more depressed because you remember how enjoyable it was to use your DOC. Granted PAWS has some legitimacy but I think it is too often a scapegoat for people who really are just miserable living a sober life.

If you developed an addiction, kicked it, but nothing else in your life has changed, you will likely relapse. You need something in your life to change, you cannot simply believe you can go back to a life you were unsatisfied with and not be overly tempted to use again. I suppose that is why suboxone can be helpful. You can still receive an opioid high, although minimal as it is, while being able to focus on things like saving money and improving your career and life. It is almost impossible when your only concern is making sure you are high and not sick while spending every dime on it. And you are clean in the sense that you will pass drug tests on suboxone (a big factor in the progression of my career).
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PAWS has tons of legitimacy.. it is a real documented scientific condition as your brain goes through changes when coming off of being dependent on drugs.. There's no debating whether it exists or not. But, it's also been documented how long it lasts, how long the actual chemical changes in your brain referred to as PAWS last. You can be depressed as shit and hate your life for years, but then that's just plain old being miserable.
 
Thats why relapse is soo easy. Once you go down this road with opiates/subs never the same again. Take extreme will power and know life goes up and down regardless what you take. Medicating might help your psych but problem not fixed.
 
But I keep hearing the bup does something to our receptors and body that makes people stay in PAWS for 6 or 10 years if not for life? I have read and heard more then a dozen of times that bup triggers some issues in our brain and body that it can damage it permanently, hence of ever lasting PAWS... Because it's a new drug people do not know anything about iit's long term affects, and basically we are all guinea pigs and trials..Again this is not encouraging indeed..

Many people cannot ride through PAWS, it can be impossible because its like the living dead, this is why I believe its one of the reason people cannot stay off subs, or have to go on an opiate, but its also a concern that not even opiates work after quitting subs as the receptors have adjusted to sub and destroyed pathways that feed in other opiates..

I also do not know if its true that anybody who takes sub for over 6 months will lead a miserable life as their testosterone will be destroyed for life, thyroid messed up for life, endorphins productivity never being able to be the same and basically creating health issues which can be mistaken for underlying health problems, but were only created when on sub and post-sub.

Another issue is the PAWS include symptoms lke fatigue, low-energy, depression, insomnia, no motivation etc and who can really cope with that for 6 months let alone 5 or 10 years or life? when people claim methadone symptoms or PAWS do not last as long it does make you wonder doesn't it whether there is indeed some truth to these horror claims.
 
RodRamsey said:
Dont ever go into surgery on any subs, worst mistake you will ever make. You better off switching back to percs or something. I bring my own supply to surgery, had 3 recently. First time they giving me fentanyl shots max dose and it did absolute nothing. There were 3 bullets in my leg and I was 30 mins from death bleedingout internal so nothing going to help that. I yelling at nurse and she standing there with the needle I already gave it too you. Even 3 days after surgery nothing was working, just laying there in death pain. It took dilaudid and whole bunch of percs to knock the subs off my receptors. Morel of the story if you getting ready for surgery better to go in withdrawing then on subs unless you into long painful days/nights.
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But I know many people who had surgery done on bup, and claimed it went fine...Even when I have to take opiates now (not for a buzz or anything like that) I feel them break through, maybe I am on such a low sub dose that is why? if a Dental anaesthetic can go through then am sure general/surgery anaesthetic can definitely work no? plus what is the difference in being off sub for few days then being on sub for surgery? the half life of sub will still be hanging about so I do not see how a week or 2 or les without subs will make any difference come surgery. In my case I feel sub is my new normal, almost everything works or breaks through now, it's like I've built up tolerance or bup as adjusted to my system that it's just part of my health and life, sad I know, but that's how I feel.. So am hoping knee surgery can go well (If I want or need it-not sure yet).... If I have to be off sub then it will be for many months, but like I said other opiates break through easily while am on 0.4 of subs (note-am on Subutex not suboxone-if that makes any difference). Plus would surgeons/doctors and medical professionals know that a patient needs to be off sub? if not then how am I mean't to convince them I need short/weak acting opiates pre & post surgery? like I said I know few folks who had surgery while on sub, even higher dose then me and claim it went fine.
 
Oh again about PAWS...I know few guys and gals who had PAWS for 4 years when they quit subs, bear in mind they never touched opiates after stopping subs, they were all on sub for more then 3 years...

Is it true high dose sub users get longer PAWS? and if one has been on a low sub dose for a while coming from doses like 8mg then it will help them to recover from PAWS faster? example I was on 8mgs for 2 years, but after that been on small doses like 1mg, 0.75 and 0.4mg for the last 3 1/2 years. Surely these small doses have decreased the 8mg half life from my receptors? so when I reduce down and quit I will have more or less be coming off small amounts of sub? specially as I been stable on small doses, so it isn't as though am suffering in withdrawals, which would mean I still have high doses and half life in my system/receptors and fatty cells.
 
Can anybody or all of you verify if tapering down makes no different to the result of withdrawals, or at least their duration and PAWS? I keep also hearing and reading that tapering down is only pushing the withdrawals back in the receptors and body i.e fatty cells, bone, liver etc...Tapering can also extend the half life because low doses are stronger, tapering holds the withdrawals inside the receptors and body, so only way to experience withdrawals is to come off the bup/sub, when that happens you still experience the same results in regards to withdrawals and PAWS as you would jump from any dose including 4mg or 8mg..The duration of withdrawals and many of the symptoms are still the same as you would even jump cold turkey, not to mention same outcome of PAWS too...

Man again I hate hearing claims like that..It makes me wonder whether am just wasting my time and energy tapering, or if am making things worse in the long run...Is that why I haven't suffered any pshycal withdrawal yet? is that why mentally I feel as though am still taking 4mg, 8mg then 0.4mg? surely there are 1 or 2 benefits in reducing the sub down...Someone claimed you need to stay on something like 0.25mg for 2 to 3 months to undo the half life and to let it wipe the stick sub from your receptors, can anybody verify or have any input on this claim? that long term sub users should stay on 0.25mg for long as possible before jumping, if so what is the wisdom and benefits behind it?
 
I am also confused about something else, hopefully some of you guys and gals can explain this...When I work out and exercise I will feel a endorphin rush potentiated by sub, it will last couple of hours, but then later on I would feel as though am in slight PAWS...Does this mean the exercise is blowing off the sub or sub dose quickly then if I was not exercising?....When I do not do any physical activity I won't feel the endorphin rush BUT would feel okish during the whole day and night..Strange isn't it? I would feel a endorphin rush during and after exercise for couple of hours but then feel kind of bored and typical PAWS feeling for the rest of the day/night..But with no exercise I would feel ok without the endorphin exercise rush...

So overall is it a good thing that exercising is blowing off my sub dose as it's getting rid of some PAWS- so when I quit I won't suffer for too long? if not then am I just better in not exercising and basically sacrificing few hours of endorphin rush for feeling okish all day/night? I know it's weird isn't it..But I want to know if there are any benefits in feeling somewhat shitty/PAWS after exercise (after a good work out-endorphin rush)...And if it's because the exercise is blowing the sub or the day's sub dose off from my receptors through sweats and other means during work outs...And why I don't feel much PAWS if I do not exercise (but will not get any endorphin rush).. Is it also because am on a low dose of sub that it's easier to wipe from the receptors hence of exercise blowing off the sub dose? is that a positive sign in the long run when I complete taper off sub?...

Mind you the lower I go on the subs the less endorphin rush lasts, and the more quickly the work outs/exercise blow off the sub dosage.. So am hoping surely that is a sign that tapering low will basically speed up the withdrawals and PAWS when I stop subs?
 
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Ya it has to do with how long you on and dose. Not sure if subutex or suboxone has longer binder or half life? Always wanted subutex but moron doctor said there was overdose potential lol. I like homeboy my tolerance honestly would have to take 10000mg to od. And probably just throw up first anyway. My incident happened and I was on the subs, no planning on being attacked. Then at trauma center they shooting me with fents left and right and nothing. I told them was long time sub patient and think they backed off a bit. I was in agony for days man for real. Could feel the oxy bouncing off my receptors, subs hangs around. Next couple surgeries I better prepared. I actually up early today so going for a pedal, its a miracle. Been soo hot been locked up in my house. They telling you if your healthy dont excercise lol. Do I sound healthy?? Take it slow the biking crutial in my recovery. Haven't been out in two weeks since stopping subs, real bad timing.
 
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Do different brands of bupe give far more painful sore throats than others when snorted ?. Ive been snorting mephodrone all week which probably didnt help and my few lines of bupe today were very uncomfortable indeed. So much so that i gave up the tad of extra bio avaiabity that snorting might have given me thie evening, and jsut sublingualed it instead.
 
Mr.Scagnattie said:
PAWS has tons of legitimacy.. it is a real documented scientific condition as your brain goes through changes when coming off of being dependent on drugs.. There's no debating whether it exists or not. But, it's also been documented how long it lasts, how long the actual chemical changes in your brain referred to as PAWS last. You can be depressed as shit and hate your life for years, but then that's just plain old being miserable.
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I'm just saying basically this, take for example someone with clinical depression(which is pretty common amongst those who end up addicted to drugs), who turns to opiates for 5 years and then gets clean. It is going to be hard for them to draw a line as to when their brain is back to its pre-dependence baseline. There are a lot of people who had chemical imbalances before they developed opiate dependence. Believe me I am not trying to dispute the science of PAWS, or else you might find me at AA/NA preaching that all you need is to pray to God for the strength to battle addiction.
 
RTrain said:
I'm just saying basically this, take for example someone with clinical depression(which is pretty common amongst those who end up addicted to drugs), who turns to opiates for 5 years and then gets clean. It is going to be hard for them to draw a line as to when their brain is back to its pre-dependence baseline. There are a lot of people who had chemical imbalances before they developed opiate dependence. Believe me I am not trying to dispute the science of PAWS, or else you might find me at AA/NA preaching that all you need is to pray to God for the strength to battle addiction.
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After a certain amount of time, it wouldn't be hard to draw the line.. If you're still experiencing those symptoms a year or two after getting clean.. it can't be paws.. it just doesn't last that long. That is why doctors often wont make a diagnosis of clinical depression or other mental illnesses until you are fully clean and that period of potential paws is long over.
 
Your right about depression related to detox or drug abuse. 5 years sounds like a small number I more like 25 years lol. Finding a previous mental baseline is impossible for people like me so not even thinking in those terms. Its about staying clean and not going insane in the process right now. So far the clean part is not soo hard. Pawls are for real but fade out quick if you taper correctly. If you jump off anything its going to be harsh.
 
RodRamsey said:
Your right about depression related to detox or drug abuse. 5 years sounds like a small number I more like 25 years lol. Finding a previous mental baseline is impossible for people like me so not even thinking in those terms. Its about staying clean and not going insane in the process right now. So far the clean part is not soo hard. Pawls are for real but fade out quick if you taper correctly. If you jump off anything its going to be harsh.
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How long have you been clean for Rod?
 
It will be a month off subs on sunday I think. Been soo long for me I almost forgot when it all started. I'm not exactly clean but only taking benzos to deal with anxiety. Been on those for 8-9 years at low dose. This is the first time in 25 years I not taking any opiates or stimulants, don't drink, barely ever smoke trees now either. Trying to clean out old the system. Been a long time coming. Still get craving but usually stress related. Been thru every opiate and detox theres no way I going back to that. If I hit the lottery or something thats another story lol. Only bad sympotom I feeling is extreme irritability, easily angered. I a bit older and wiser now so staying away from conflict as much as possible. Not always easy in NY.
 
Just doing 45 mins of excesise a day is making a big difference in overall coping without opiates. If miss a day or get lazy I feel the pull to go back on and it gets hard to sleep. A month sounds long but still much work to do.
 
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