Strategies to make up for MDMA-induced cognitive deficits

[JBrandon]

I can't believe all you guys here telling the OP that these symptoms are all in his head and not caused by MDMA. Even a mod! I'm ashamed.

Some people were acting that way, yes, but not all of us. I think the thing is this - the OP originally claimed to have only done it one time (now it is three times, still a small number, but NOT ONE). There are very few people describing such extreme symptoms after one time use of the drug, so I feel most of us were just trying to help him think of possible alernative explanations that might be more likely.

Now that we know it was three times using the drug things are a little different, but not too much.

I typo quite a bit more often than I did before.

I have noticed this in my life - but I only did the drug one time. I am inclined to believe it's more likely a case of me looking for a problem - but I have noticed it.

There is no question this drug is neurotoxic - but I don't think we should discount what another poster said in this thread - be careful when it comes to psychosomatic symptom manifestation. If you believe you are going to be cognitively deficient and you start looking for and obsessing about it - you're going to notice it and probably perpetuate / exacerbate the problem.

I'm not saying that's what the OP or anyone else in this thread is doing - I just want to throw that out there. The mind is a powerful thing and you can certainly create problems for yourself with negative thought patterns and negative fixations.

 

[Matthew Reece]

I can't believe all you guys here telling the OP that these symptoms are all in his head and not caused by MDMA. Even a mod! I'm ashamed. Remember, everyone is different. While some people out there have done E in the hundreds of times, there are a number of people that encounter severe and long-lasting mental problems even as few as 5-10 times. Rodent studies reinforce this idea -- as an example, Sprague-Dawley and Dark Agouti strains of mice differ by several fold in terms of the neurotoxic effects MDMA has on them.

Having experienced depression and cognitive/memory deficits from Ecstasy myself with only a limited number of uses (~10 times, ~15 pills total) there's no doubt in my mind it can really fucked with your brain, even after a relatively small number of uses, though depending on the person in question of course. After all, MDMA is a proven and severe serotonergic neurotoxin in rodents and primates.

For me in terms of cognition, I've noticed the following issues that are no doubt linked to my MDMA use:

• My general awareness is reduced.. I feel like I'm 3/4ths as conscious as I used to be.

I think this is related to the episodic memory issues. I've also believed that I am "less conscious" since then. In a small way this is a positive thing because I'm less self-conscious (therefore slightly less anxious during social events), but overall it's not a good trade-off.

[*]I screw up and stutter/stumble more often when I speak and I typo quite a bit more often than I did before.

I don't relate too much to the typo'ing' though I do have a lot of trouble finding words and expressing myself, my feelings. I speak two languages fluently, and I have trouble finding words in both of them. In other words, I'm less fluent even in the language I use all the time.

• My episodic memory sucks.. this is definitely the most notable change I've had. I have difficulty remembering what I did a few weeks or even days ago. Forget about my thoughts and plans a few months ago. It's like it's all just being slowly and repeatedly wiped clean from my memory with time.

I completely sympathize. It's horrible. It's hard to pinpoint what is being forgotten. It's not that my memory is getting worse - it seems to be just as bad after the incident - rather that I don't automatically rehearse it over and over in my mind (because it takes so much effort), so there is no maintenance loop.

I strain even recalling what was going through my mind yesterday.

Yes. It takes so much effort for me.

I used to also remind people of what they had done, and I could quote long passages from movies I had seen once. Now I just feel like I spaced-out.

As I type this I'm drawing a blank. Before such things would just come right to me but not anymore. I also consistently repeat stories I've already told people, another thing I didn't frequently do in the past prior to my MDMA use.

• Concentration-wise I find it somewhat harder to focus and although this is more related to mood than cognition, my motivation has been impaired as well.

While my mood and drive have restored significantly since I permanently quit doing MDMA, the cognitive problems I described above are not recovering nearly as well. It's likely that they're permanent. My last roll was over 4 months ago.

I have trouble with episodic memory as well. I have trouble telling people what I did yesterday. It's as though I can't keep enough referential information while I'm "looking back" to give a quick answer.

Do you ever confabulate? You are asked for your motivation on something you did yesterday, and then you change your story when (if) you remember more details, all while feeling confused and embarrassed. It makes it more difficult to express myself.

I know that people who are depressed tend to overgeneralize their past memories, so that might account for some of my troubles. Overall, though, it's like you took the words right out of my mouth.

I'm having an off day, so I know that what I wrote is disorganized, but overall, I completely agree with mildly reduced consciousness (3/4ths sounds about right), diminished verbal fluency (takes a lot of effort to find words, and express oneself), and episodic memory issues (can't remember past events or past conversations with typical clarity + mild confabulation or overgeneralization of past events).

The only thing I have to add is multitasking and task-switching difficulties, though these seem to be related to episodic memory - as in, "what was I working on a few minutes ago?" Or it could be from deficits with working memory, which would also explain why it takes more effort to plan things out.

Thank you for posting your experiences. It validates my feelings about mine.

Now I only wish there was a known way to fix them. Have you received any advice from doctors?

 

[Matthew Reece]

Some people were acting that way, yes, but not all of us. I think the thing is this - the OP originally claimed to have only done it one time (now it is three times, still a small number, but NOT ONE). There are very few people describing such extreme symptoms after one time use of the drug, so I feel most of us were just trying to help him think of possible alernative explanations that might be more likely.

Now that we know it was three times using the drug things are a little different, but not too much.

With all due respect, there was never a contradiction. I thought I noticed the deficits right from the start. So the fact that I took it three times instead of just one was not an important distinction, not to mention I have posted about having used MDMA three times in a three-month period before I created this thread.

...

If you believe you are going to be cognitively deficient and you start looking for and obsessing about it - you're going to notice it and probably perpetuate / exacerbate the problem.

I'm not saying that's what the OP or anyone else in this thread is doing - I just want to throw that out there. The mind is a powerful thing and you can certainly create problems for yourself with negative thought patterns and negative fixations.

Yes, confirmation bias, and so on. The opposite seems to be happening as well, however: cognitive dissonance and wishful thinking - as in "It'll go away soon", or "This can't be happening to me, therefore it isn't."

The fact that some people are affected and others are not affected whatsoever explains the controversial literature on the topic.

If you find 30 subjects who all took ecstasy and only 3 are highly-sensitive to the neurotoxicity, you are not going to find any strong correlations or statistically significant results comparing against a control group.

Additionally, I haven't found any studies which look at episodic memory (how would they measure it without self-reporting?) or task-switching.

ETA: If my theory is correct, it means that once you've taken MDMA and you know it doesn't affect you negatively, you are good to go as long as you are responsible.

 

[Matthew Reece]

you could try tianeptine (stablon) but it is expensive depending on what country you live in. I've read that it has helped some people with MDMA induced depression.

Also - St. John's Wort or Piracetam could be a good candidate. I would try one of these for a few months.

Seriously though, I find that if I don't even much about my former abuse, I am several times better. I don't really even notice any cognitive deficits until I start thinking or reading about them. The mind is a powerful thing and worrying about a condition can cause symptom manifestation.

I wish there were a post-MDMA restorative medicine or therapy program out there but I don't know of one.

Me too. Here are all the things I've tried that did NOT work:

Modafinil, Adrafinil, Pramiracetam, Aniracetam, Ritalin, Concerta, ginkgo biloba, hydergine, pramiracetam, aniracetam, nicotine (transdermal), 5htp, piracetam DHA+linoleic acid, alpha linoleic acid (flax), SSRIs, NRIs, vitamins C+E, turmeric, standard multivitamins (centrum), phospatidyl serine, milk thistle, melatonin, huperzine a, DMAE, DHEA, Choline, B-complex, alpha lipoic acid, alcar + alpha lipoic acid, acetyl-l-carnitine.

Of all of those that don't work, only Modafinil, Adrafinil, Ritalin, Concerta, SSRIs, NRIs, and nicotine had any strong (side-) effects. Gingko biloba, hydergine, melatonin had moderate (side-) effects.

What has worked:

Here are the easily available things that have helped some:

1) exercise (intense running for 20+ minutes, swimming, or very long walks),
2) chocolate and coffee,
3) fish oil

Here are the prescription medications that have helped

1) Adderall + SSRI
2) Wellbutrin

The benefit of all of these is short lived.

Adderall doesn't help with (episodic) memory issues, but it did help my concentration, and it lifted my mood slightly, but affects my sense of humor.
Wellbutrin lifted my mood mildly. I think it had some mild effects on cognition, particularly awareness, but I may be reporting this incorrectly.
Chocolate and Coffee lift my mood, drive, but also make me feel more confused.
Fish oil seems to clear my mind and I feel slightly less sluggish. It's a very brief effect, and taking more than a few doses doesn't make any big difference.
Exercise boosts my mood and cognition strongly for about 2 hours. The effects last into the following day, but are mild to moderate.

In all, exercise keeps me from from feeling suicidal, and adderall and coffee help me get stuff done.

However, neither is a permanent solution and they are rather short-lived. I've been doing exercise nearly every day for about 4 months, and if I stop doing exercise for a couple of days, I feel just like the day before I started - so much for neurogenesis.

I hope that helps someone.

What I'd like to try: Donepezil, Memantine, and some other things I literally cannot remember. I feel mentally fatigued.

 

[JBrandon]

You should be able to get the memantine somewhat easily - there are a few people who have convinced their psychiatrists to 'script it for help with amphetamine tolerance.

Just because you aren't feeling noticeable neurological effects from the exercise yet, don't give it up!

I'm not sure you will ever find the answer you seem to be looking for from this board, but I really hope you do somewhere, somehow. I'm sure we'll have both forgotten about Bluelight by then, but I'm really curious to see how you'll be doing in five years from now. Hopefully things will have turned around for you!

*P.S. have you looked around / talked to people from the Advanced Drug Discussion forum? The level of knowledge and understanding of drug metabolism is really pretty incredible over there.

 

[netcrusher]

There seems to be to many negatives associated with MDMA use; however, when used correctly it is up there with the safest andwithoutdoubt the most positive amazing experiance a human can have. Lets be smart and not abuse our intake and always test. The only negatives I have had was having pills that contained more than just mdma. I wish the people that looked at our forums had more of a positive spin on mdma

 

[Matthew Reece]

...

What I'd like to try: Donepezil, Memantine, and some other things I literally cannot remember. I feel mentally fatigued.

I remembered: anything that helps me get more Slow Wave Sleep and anything that increases Brain-Derived Neurotrophic Factor.

I think I will take it to the advanced drug discussion forums.

 

[Matthew Reece]

You should be able to get the memantine somewhat easily - there are a few people who have convinced their psychiatrists to 'script it for help with amphetamine tolerance.

With my medical history and the fact that I seem to do more research than they do, I think my doctors will prescribe anything I ask them to, short of opiates.

Just because you aren't feeling noticeable neurological effects from the exercise yet, don't give it up!

How much longer? Sometimes it feels like I'm training for the Olympics.

I'm not sure you will ever find the answer you seem to be looking for from this board, but I really hope you do somewhere, somehow.

I think I found it, partially. rocknroll714 verbalized my problems quite well, as though he was reading my mind. It appears I and a few others are very susceptible to MDMA neurotoxicity; though it's possible that it wasn't MDMA, or that it was contaminated.

The other part of the answer is whether the changes are reversible with modern or near-term pharmacology.

I'm sure we'll have both forgotten about Bluelight by then, but I'm really curious to see how you'll be doing in five years from now. Hopefully things will have turned around for you!

Thank you. If things turn around, I will inform every physician who has ever attended me, and I'll probably throw a big party (though we will have to do something boring like alcohol or board-games). I'll probably quit whatever high-paying job I have at the time, have sex with random people on the street, write a few novels, and run for president on a pro-drug platform.

OK, the last part is tentative. Really though, this is a huge deal to me. It has affected my last job (I was laid-off, but they could have fired me for performance issues), I have to deal with vague sensations (typically pressure or pain) around my feet that might actually be psychosomatic in nature, and uncomfortable sensations of heat. I'm forgetting the details of wonderful experiences I've had, or simply cannot recall them without considerable effort. I space out all the time during conversations, sometimes forgetting what I'm going to say next, or what I had just been saying. More recently, the less control I feel I have over this situation, the more I think about killing myself.

So, believe me. If things turn around, I will not forget it, and I will make it a point to come back and tell everyone.

*P.S. have you looked around / talked to people from the Advanced Drug Discussion forum? The level of knowledge and understanding of drug metabolism is really pretty incredible over there.

I will try that next. Thank you for being understanding.

 

[MeDieViL]

J Psychoactive Drugs. 2007 Mar;39(1):31-9.Links
Is recreational ecstasy (MDMA) use associated with higher levels of depressive symptoms?
Guillot C.

University of Southern Mississippi Hattiesburg, MS, USA. [email protected]

Due to potential serotonergic deficits, 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA or Ecstasy) may cause long-term mood disruptions in recreational Ecstasy users. The purpose of this review is to evaluate the evidence for a relationship between recreational Ecstasy use and higher levels of depressive symptoms. Eleven out of 22 studies initially have reported significantly higher depression scores in Ecstasy users in comparison to control participants. However, only three studies ultimately have revealed significantly higher depression scores in comparison to cannabis or polydrug controls. Furthermore, most studies have suffered from methodological weaknesses, and the levels of depressive symptoms that have been found in Ecstasy users have not been shown to be much higher than those found in normative groups. The evidence for an association specifically between Ecstasy use and higher levels of depressive symptoms is currently unconvincing, but the frequent concomitant use of Ecstasy and other illicit drugs has been shown to be associated with higher levels of depressive symptoms. Possible causes include polydrug use in general, MDMA-induced serotonergic deficits, individual effects of illicit drugs besides Ecstasy, combined effects of MDMA and other illicit drugs, and preexisting differences in the levels of depressive symptoms in Ecstasy users.

PMID: 17523583 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Quote:
Drug Alcohol Depend. 2007 Mar 16;87(2-3):303-11. Epub 2006 Oct 30.Click here to read Click here to read Links
Anxiety, depression, and behavioral symptoms of executive dysfunction in ecstasy users: contributions of polydrug use.
Medina KL, Shear PK.

Department of Psychiatry, University of California at San Diego, 3350 La Jolla Village Drive (151B), San Diego, CA 92161, USA. [email protected]

BACKGROUND: Given ecstasy's (MDMA) potential serotonergic neurotoxicity, it is plausible that regular ecstasy users would have an elevated prevalence of behavioral executive dysfunction or mood symptoms. However, recent studies have found that the relationship between ecstasy use and psychological symptoms was no longer significant after controlling for marijuana use (e.g., Morgan et al., 2002). The goal of the present study was to examine the relationship between ecstasy exposure and self-reported executive functioning and psychological symptoms after controlling for gender, ethnicity, and other drug use. METHODS: Data were collected from 65 men and women with a wide range of ecstasy use (including 17 marijuana-using controls). Participants were administered the Frontal Systems Behavioral Scale, State-Trait Anxiety Inventory for adults, and the Beck Depression Inventory-2nd edition. RESULTS: Although 19-63% of the ecstasy users demonstrated clinically elevated psychological symptoms, frequency of ecstasy use did not predict the psychological symptoms. No gender differences or interactions were observed. CONCLUSIONS: These results revealed that, although ecstasy users demonstrate elevated levels of psychological symptoms and executive dysfunction, these symptoms are not statistically associated with their ecstasy consumption. Instead, other drug use (alcohol, marijuana, opioids, and inhalants) significantly predict psychological symptoms in this sample of polydrug users.

PMID: 17074449 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


Polydrug use is the big problem, not MDMA.

What drugs besides mdma did you take?

 

[Pans-Advocate]

I'm pretty surprised to hear you say that piracetam "doesn't work." There's a pretty hefty amount of scientific backing out there the supports its efficacy. Did you keep track of how much you were taking, how often, and for how long?

 

[JBrandon]

Polydrug use is the big problem, not MDMA.

What drugs besides mdma did you take?

That's a very cool study you linked there, but it is only one study and it only had a sample of 65 people...

I don't think we can write off MDMA as the culprit entirely. I do agree though that Matthew's case sounds like some other toxic drug or drug combo.

 

[MeDieViL]

That's a very cool study you linked there, but it is only one study and it only had a sample of 65 people...

I don't think we can write off MDMA as the culprit entirely. I do agree though that Matthew's case sounds like some other toxic drug or drug combo.

Well i'm inclined to beleive that study considering that i abused MDMA in huge ammounts (started taking it allmost daily the first 2 weeks, after that i slowed down to twice a week for several months and after that once a week for some months.)
I dont have a single problem at all, maybe the trick was that i ONLY used MDMA and no other drugs (not even alcohol or weed).

 

[JBrandon]

@Medievil

That could be true, but there are some studies which indicate certain persons may be more genetically susceptible to the damage from MDMA alone.

 

[MazDan]

BTW mazdaz I really dont appreciate the incredibly selfish response as a SENIOR MODERATOR to be giving "advice" as "you may very well have permanent damage"

There are plenty of storys on here about people who have indeed recovered from their mdma abuse; in fact their are storys of people, like the OP who have had problems after only a few times of using, not abusing, mdma.

The point is all people are different, and for you as a MODERATOR come off saying that some people might indeed have permanent damage, is extremely selfish, because unless you have a logical amount of information that proves this theory of yours to be correct, backed up with evidence of certain people who have actual permanent damage from abusing mdma, and havent gotten just maybe somewhat better due to excercise and living healthy, then I suggest you rethink some of your responses.

I expected alot better from this site, no offense.

lol, Oh dear.

Not quite sure how you equate selfish to my asking someone how they can be so sure there so called brain damage is only temporary and not permanent. Thats a strange thing to say.
The fact is that nobody knows. It very well may be that the damage is permanent. It might be temporary. Who knows. Its wrong to assume one or the other without knowing for sure.

 

[MazDan]

I can't believe all you guys here telling the OP that these symptoms are all in his head and not caused by MDMA.

?????

lol, wow. Thats not what was said at all. The possibility was offerred as a suggestion. Im no neurologist so i cant say whats really happenning.
I do however feel its important not to have blinkers on when looking for possibilities. Its important to consider all possibilities.
Who are you to say it IS caused by MDMA?

 

[eLW]

I can't believe all you guys here telling the OP that these symptoms are all in his head and not caused by MDMA. Even a mod! I'm ashamed. Remember, everyone is different. While some people out there have done E in the hundreds of times, there are a number of people that encounter severe and long-lasting mental problems even as few as 5-10 times. Rodent studies reinforce this idea -- as an example, Sprague-Dawley and Dark Agouti strains of mice differ by several fold in terms of the intensity of the neurotoxic effects MDMA has on them.

Having experienced depression and cognitive/memory deficits from Ecstasy myself with only a limited number of uses (~10 times, ~15 pills total) there's no doubt in my mind it can really fucked with your brain, even after a relatively small number of uses, though depending on the person in question of course. After all, MDMA is a proven and severe serotonergic neurotoxin in rodents and primates.

For me in terms of cognition, I've noticed the following issues that are no doubt linked to my MDMA use:

• My general awareness is reduced.. I feel like I'm 3/4ths as conscious as I used to be.
• I screw up and stutter/stumble more often when I speak and I typo quite a bit more often than I did before.
• My episodic memory sucks.. this is definitely the most notable change I've had. I have difficulty remembering what I did a few weeks or even days ago. Forget about my thoughts and plans a few months ago. It's like it's all just being slowly and repeatedly wiped clean from my memory with time. I strain even recalling what was going through my mind yesterday. As I type this I'm drawing a blank. Before such things would just come right to me but not anymore. I also consistently repeat stories I've already told people, another thing I didn't frequently do in the past prior to my MDMA use.
• Concentration-wise I find it somewhat harder to focus and although this is more related to mood than cognition, my motivation has been impaired as well.

While my mood and drive have restored significantly since I permanently quit doing MDMA, the cognitive problems I described above are not recovering nearly as well. It's likely that they're permanent. My last roll was over 4 months ago.

I cant belive u are sayng this. Go and look the statistics http://thedea.org/statistics.html
ASPIRIN iS FREAKING MORE DANGEROUS than MDMA!!!!!!
Yes- there are SIDE EFFECT FOR EVERYTHING! MDMA on its self IS PRETTY SAFE.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orjT__YPhiM

 

[its.euphoric]

dude.. I bet your brain has just something wrong with it.
You should like go to a doctor that knows about neurons or whatever and get serious help.

That is not normal, and I doubt that even if it was a bad pill that it would fuck your brain that bad to any other person

 

[JBrandon]

I cant belive u are sayng this. Go and look the statistics http://thedea.org/statistics.html
ASPIRIN iS FREAKING MORE DANGEROUS than MDMA!!!!!!
Yes- there are SIDE EFFECT FOR EVERYTHING! MDMA on its self IS PRETTY SAFE.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orjT__YPhiM

Wow, not to be too rude but your post is total garbage. Posts like yours do nothing but spread TERRIBLE DISINFORMATION.

The page on the thedea that you linked to is a comparison of REPORTED ER VISITS AND DEATHS.

The OP was complaining about LONG TERM DEPRESSION AND COGNITIVE INADEQUACIES.

These are two completely different issues. Yes, almost no one posts here about going to the ER or dying from ectasy, but there are a million and one posts about DEPRESSION and MOOD disorders. There's practically a new one everyday. Just because most of us don't have any long-term problems there is no reason to discount the experiences and warnings of those that do.

I realize English is probably not your native language, but you completely missed the point of this thread and it really bothers me when I see someone throw out statements about the safety of MDMA. Just because you love something doesn't mean that you have to defend it blindly.

 

[MazDan]

Brandon, eLW was not replying to the OP.

He quoted another poster and was responding to something they wrote.

 

[SpiralOut]

There's always going to be that 1 in a million person that is affected negatively from MDMA use alone. However, usually it's the case that something other than MDMA is causing the problem.

Most people that die from MDMA actually died from heatstroke from dancing too long without staying hydrated. Or because their tabs were chock full of speed, pipes, or something else entirely.

My guess would be any cognitive deficiencies someone is perceiving to experience come from something other than MDMA, too.

If you're really worried Ecstasy has ruined your brain, go see a doctor. Get a CAT scan. Nobody here is going to be able to give you any real help.