Stimulants of the Future

[Jamshyd]

Uhhmm... a lot is known about PURE cocaine, yes. Do you know anybody who's ever received it in that state? I don't.

Yes - pharmaceutical cocaine used to be freely available in the late 19th and early 20th century. There are some subjective writings about its recreational use in that form, and it appears to be rather safe compared to other stimulants.

Coca leaf has been used for centuries, and in that form, it is absolutely non-toxic (as a matter of fact, it is actually healthy!). Actually it is my opinion that people dose way too much when they take any ammount of cocaine powder since cocaine is still active at just a few milligrams as it is found in Coca leaves. Therefore, cocain in its natural form is almost impossible to OD on.

I am willing to bet that MDPV is far more toxic than coke, simply due to its structural similarity to both Methcathinone and MDA, both of which are toxic. And although I know this is not a good reason, in my experience MDPV produces a more horrific aftermath for less euphoria when compared to cocaine.

 

[Jamshyd]

I'll be blunt: I think you want MDPV to be non-toxic, just because you love it so much. I, too, wanted dexamphetamine to be non-toxic when I was addicted to it. Well, guess what? yeah. These days I also want Ketamine to be non-toxic because I use it medicinally in tiny doses (as you may have noticed in my posts). However, I have both historical and lab data besides my own experiece that proves that Ketamine is non-toxic. What do you have for MDPV besides theories?

Almost nothing is known about MDPV. For all we know, it could be carcinogenic, or anything really. If you decide to keep using carelessly "untill some facts come to the contrary", then I am very afraid you yourself might become one of those facts.

Please don't misunderstand me. I am saying all this out of concern for your safety, not as an attack.

As for coca evidence... erm, what do you mean by "non-anecdotal"? It is well known that people all over south america have been consuming coca as a primary part of their daily diet from time immemorial, and they still do today. There is something in wikipedia about that. I am currently too tired to search medical journals if that is what you mean, but for me, socio-historical evidence is even more sufficient than lab evidence (think of all the pathetic new researches popping up trying to prove that cannabis causes brain damage, for example).

Contrary to Coca, MDPV has only existed for a couple of years. There is practically no historical evidence to show whether it is toxic or not.

And btw, keep in mind that one of the things that Dopamine degrades into is epineprine - so it is not really the NE affinity that determines cardiotoxicity (as you seem to be proposing) - it is actually the Dopamine's byproducts.

As for your question about my proposition that people take way too much coke, I already answered it: cocaine is active in just a few mgs. When people snort lines of hundreds of milligrams, they always risk a siezure. This means that when anyone snorts a line of coke they are flirting with an overdose.

And ps., the people in the andes are just as real as you are, and so are the fin de siecle users of old .

 

[fastandbulbous]

I am willing to bet that MDPV is far more toxic than coke

I'd not. If cocaine wasn't a local anaesthetic then that might well be the case, but all such drugs (lignocaine, procaine etc) have a cardiotoxic effect with prolonged or one off acute dosing because they interfere with transmission od the pacemaker signal across the heart. Add to that cocaine's effect on the sympathetic nervous system and it's short action that results in repeated dosing and you have a very dangerous drug. Ask any doctor in Florida or Texas (main routes into the US for coke) about the number of emergency admissions to casualty with cardiac related probems due to cocaine use, Cocaine is way more dangerous

BTW Jamshyd, I totally agree that most people take far too high a dose of cocaine when available as the alkaloid. If it was used as the coca leaf preparation there would be next to no fatalities from cardiac complications

 

[qwe]

earlier in this thread sydnocarb / mesocarb was being discussed

just FYI it's all over pubmed. the general consensus of the research is that it is about half as powerful as d-amph and significantly less neurotoxic. it's a dopamine reuptake inhibitor with a long half-life

 

[everhopeful]

mesocarb info

this is from a report done 1993 mainly concerned with metabolic precursor compounds that caused false positives i.e. you test positive for amphs without the pleasure of having taken one. i get the feeling it's a whole more subtle (read weak) than the amphs, and other reports i've read would confirm it's more of an "adaptogen with legs" than a straight stim.

earlier in this thread sydnocarb / mesocarb was being discussed

just FYI it's all over pubmed. the general consensus of the research is that it is about half as powerful as d-amph and significantly less neurotoxic. it's a dopamine reuptake inhibitor with a long half-life

 

[everhopeful]

does anyone have personal experience with amphetaminil (trade names amfetaminal, amfetaminyl, aponeuron, tonozwei, cas 17590-01-1).

"is an anorexic used to treat fatigue, depression and narcolepsy". reads well or maybe it's more a modafinil than amph type?

 

[izo]

iirc it is a prodrug for amphetamine. i guess it is in the same league with the other n-substituted amphetamines (e.g. benzphetamine, fenethylline, fenproporex).
never had it but heard only good things about it. especially fenethylline seems to be a nice option.

 

[toxide]

I would like to know more about Pyridine based stimulants, if they might be any good or not. I've seen many that at a glance look good and their cheap and available commercially, some examples would be...

2-(2-(Methylamino)ethyl)pyridine
2-(4-Methoxybenzylamino)pyridine
2-(Aminomethyl)pyridine
2-benzoylpyridine
2-diphenylmethylpyridine
3-(Pyrrol-1-ylmethyl)pyridine

 

[MDPVagrant]

The duration for MDPV is about 2-4 hours. MA usually last 7-10 or so (at least, for me).

Correct... MDPV *is* a 'happy medium' duration-wise, at least in my opinion.

I disagree with MDPVagrant - MDPV is really in the reacreational meth substitute camp. Too compusive to use in low doses long term. Eventually it leads to higher, compulsive dosing in most if not all that take it. Sortof like using coke to get through the day. Works for a while, but eventually will get out of hand.

I don't recall exactly what I said originally, but let me put it this way : I personally cannot use most stimulants in utilitarian ways, even some that others insist are only good for that. If it has the slightest effect on dopamine, I'm "in trouble" immediately. So I do not claim to speak for anyone else -- it's up to them whether they're able/unable to use a stimulant non-compulsively, as well as how concerned they are about addictive behavior in the first place. Some people have extreme problems even with caffeine, so who am I to judge.

However, in terms of things like duration, specific effects and apparent physical safety, I find MDPV 'promising' for utilitarian purposes, IF addiction can be avoided. In other words, if MDPV were ever legitimized and prescribed for this purpose, I would support a joint doctor-patient decision as reasonable. That's as far as I'll go.

 

[General alcazar]

MDPV is impossible for me to use in a utilitarian way. After 10 mg, the compulsiveness kicks in, and the stimulant effects are mild relative to the euphoria so any significant motivation would be fraught with distraction. It is good for euphoria, though. MDPV for me is a good way to waste an evening, or longer (I have a go to sleep every night rule - no binging on anything)...
I feel like if I need a motivator, I'll take more caffeine.

 

[MDPVagrant]

MDPV is impossible for me to use in a utilitarian way. After 10 mg, the compulsiveness kicks in, and the stimulant effects are mild relative to the euphoria so any significant motivation would be fraught with distraction. It is good for euphoria, though. MDPV for me is a good way to waste an evening, or longer (I have a go to sleep every night rule - no binging on anything)...

A terrific regimen to follow, or so I discovered with my mice last time around. Seven days straight of dawn to dusk dosing, WITH sleep and food, one full gram dosed -- no psychosis, no paranoia, no nasty crash, no cravings, nothing but some heavy egotism & a couple days of agitation & pissy mood afterward. It's just amazing how much sleep/food helps in all departments, particularly in the sense of feeling more in control. Almost miraculous.

Quite a profound learning experience, and it helps immensely in my plans to design a (imo desperately needed) program to help addicts gain control back from stimulants, that one called "Regain-It" I'm now getting some real momentum going with! If it works, I am going to get my 15 minutes of fame, maybe longer.

I feel like if I need a motivator, I'll take more caffeine.

I agree... and suspect you misunderstood me previously. I haven't used a stimulant as "motivator" *ever*, i.e. for studying or truck driving. Not once in my life. I just think MDPV may have potential in that area (including for ADHD), and am not ready to condemn it yet. Many people's rats have tremendously more self-control than mine do, and MUCH less propensity toward compulsive/addictive behavior. And -- many people's have it MUCH WORSE than my rats as well. My tests have all been very much middle-of-the-road in that department.

Dopaminergic stimulants have a strong element of 'biological' compulsion. But how deeply this affects people's behavior is totally psychological, and IMO can be learned/unlearned. This area has been *totally neglected* by the treatment industry, and I am tremendously hopeful. If anyone wants to see some preliminary "Regain-It" literature in MS Word format, drop me an Email or PM.

 

[General alcazar]

I disagree with MDPVagrant. I think that once someone discovers the euphoric side of MDPV, it is simply to distracting to do anything mundane. I used to find amphetamine, meth, ritalin and even BZP good to do studying, cleaning and other chores on. MDPV demands all one's hedonistic attention, though. I've wasted many an evening on the stuff. It's tricky, though, because the euphoria only seems present when one focuses on it. Of course, I have poor self-control..

 

[MDPVagrant]

I disagree with MDPVagrant. I think that once someone discovers the euphoric side of MDPV, it is simply to distracting to do anything mundane. I used to find amphetamine, meth, ritalin and even BZP good to do studying, cleaning and other chores on. MDPV demands all one's hedonistic attention, though.

Weeee... even after I say this:

I haven't used a stimulant as "motivator" *ever*, i.e. for studying or truck driving. Not once in my life. I just think MDPV may have potential in that area (including for ADHD), and am not ready to condemn it yet.

In other words, you DO condemn it for this purpose, for everyone, for all time (which is the only thing I'm not doing)? SMART!

You must have conducted numerous double-blind scientific tests, eh... I'd love to see the results of your authoritative dismissal of MDPV as utterly unusable for non-recreational purposes (what is that, twice in a row now you've gone out of your way to disagree, no matter how much I qualified my statements... or is it three times in a row?). Please share your research methodology and results.

Also, I'd like to know why a chemical so similar in structure and pharmacological profile to Ritalin would fail utterly for ADHD, while Ritalin has been THE drug of choice to treat this disorder? Aside from yet another iteration of your own experience (one single human being in 6.6 billion), do you have some thoughts to add here?

 

[vecktor]

different folks different strokes.. might work as a motivator for some, others not ritalin is the same, some find it to be useless as a motivator and concentration improver. amp works as a motivator in many people but I find it to be too distracting. I find modafinil at 400mg to be more useful simply because it gives an extra 4 hours in the day without any major price to pay.
though money is a better motivator

Interesting the ADHD activity of ritalin and analogs seems to correlate with NE rather than DA and experiments that blocked the DA action didn't reduce the ADHD model in the rats..

 

[MDPVagrant]

Interesting the ADHD activity of ritalin and analogs seems to correlate with NE rather than DA and experiments that blocked the DA action didn't reduce the ADHD model in the rats..

Interesting, although MDPV gives me INCREDIBLE focus... I can literally sit and focus on a single activity on the computer for 8 hours straight without a break. Not that it would necessarily work the same way for ADHD (which I don't have) but it seems to make sense that it could.

different folks different strokes.. might work as a motivator for some, others not ritalin is the same, some find it to be useless as a motivator and concentration improver.

That's basically all I was getting at, that there's a possibility MDPV could work well for some people (particularly in a gradual dosing form, such as extended release tablets). Nobody's going to be snorting, plugging or injecting it if it were prescribed for ADHD, and these rapid dosing methods probably contribute a great deal to compulsivity and overall addictiveness.

But of course I could be wrong, and maybe everyone who touches it ends up addicted... tests would have to be performed, of course. Clearly all just speculation otherwise.

 

[hussness]

If I could be confident about purity and long-term effects I might use it for my ADHD. I've been prescribed methylphenidate, adderall, strattera, none of them work great for me. I would've definitely tried modafinil, if I could afford it. From the sound of it MDPV could be a good ADHD drug, it would just take a hell of a lot of money to get approval. Even then I'm sure it would still end up schedule II, and it's probably a lot easier just to extend adderall patents by tacking on an amino acid.

 

[Smyth]

I have an excellent contact for modafinil.
I am really skint atm, but the price for this is cheap by normal peoples standards.

 

[Mal hyde]

what about bk-PMMA ...

 

[hussness]

Considering the toxicity of PMA using it as a lead compound probably isn't such a good idea.

 

[MattPsy]

The beta-ketone may reduce affinity for 5-HTT (as seems to be the trend for it with such simple amphetamine compounds), and so reduce the potential toxicity. I've no idea what the bk would do to it's ability to inhibit MAO, though.