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Stimulant RC researchers, join forces with me on this...?

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MDPVagrant

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USA... *sigh*... sux.
MDPVagrant said:
Although finding this stuff out could be very helpful to the field of addiction research (stimulants in particular), I will readily admit that I have very urgent and meaningful personal reasons for wanting answers.
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This thread has taken a different tack (see P. 3), and will probably be switched to a different thread. I got struck yesterday with something I can only call "inspiration." In other words, a fully formed philosophy just appeared in my mind, and it strikes me as exactly what I was looking for.

Instead of investigating dopamine to try & help stimulant users, I took a psychological/philosophical tack that I think will work better, if I can come up with a methodology to accompany the philosophy.

AA/NA and such have a success rate of 2% or so. What hit me (quite literally dropped into my head from nowhere) is almost a diametric opposite of their philosophy. Who knows, could it have a 98% success rate? =D

Thanks to everyone for the conversation re: dopamine... still fascinates me. Might be occupied with other things. If you guys still want to discuss dopamine, I'll start a new thread for what I currently have in mind.
 
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Easy, Humans are euphoria addicts-pure and simple and potent (Meth) Dopaminergic releasers and inhibitors override a humans desire for food, sex, sleep.
 
MDPVagrant said:
Why is there no brain mechanism already in place to stop dopamine-related compulsive behavior at some point, particularly if survival of the organism is threatened; or is there, and perhaps it's overloaded by strong reuptake inhibition?
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Though my knowledge of the dopamine reward system is far from comprehensive, it would stand to reason that, to the brain, DRIs are no "different" from normal dopamine-enhancing activities. Though continuous compulsive redosing of DRIs is clearly pathological, as it reduces organisms' chances of survival (neglecting food and sleep, among other essential behaviors), this is not "known" to the brain.

For example, suppose that consuming a unit of food releases y units of dopamine, and dosing a unit of a DRI (albeit more indirectly) too causes y units of dopaminergic enhancement. To the brain, there is no difference - a different path was taken to effect the DA increase, but the path is inconsequential. DA _is_ the reward, and the brain has essentially been "tricked."

Note: my post may not be entirely physiologically accurate, but I hope it proves somewhat insightful into this phenomenon.
 
scream said:
Easy, Humans are euphoria addicts-pure and simple and potent (Meth) Dopaminergic releasers and inhibitors override a humans desire for food, sex, sleep.
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All higher forms of life have some built in mechanisms to ensure the propagation of the species. Many have developed internal reward mechanisms for appropriate behaviors; food and sex are good examples. As humans, we've figured out how to bypass the behavior that provides the reward, and get the reward through simple pharmacological intervention.

There's decoupling of rewarding behaviors with the rewards themselves, which is a very dangerous game ... obviously counterproductive to evolutionarily derived survial mechanisms. Humans are likely the only species that has the capacity to integrate past experiences effectively enough to avoid "pressing the lever until dropping dead." Although even then, there are plenty that seem to be more apt to override memory, and keep on pressing. This demonstrates that we are not as far from less developed species as we may think. We still have a similar primitive brain, with the nucleus accumbens and all its associated reward pathways. The changes that occur in a persistent drug abuser's brain seem to be farily deep seated, probably due do rewiring more than damage, making rational decision-making enormously difficult. I imagine the rewiring is extremely difficult to turn back the clock on, particularly since stimulants can provide euphoria above that which evolution has intended (more powerful than sex or food), resulting in an even deeper imprint. Abstinence after significant abuse seems to be a life-long battle. So, can you defeat emotion with reason? It ain't easy.

I think the neurobiology involved is extremely interesting as well, but it seems that complex mechanisms such as reward systems is still largely a black box. MDPVagrant, maybe you could work on summarizing the current literature if you're really interested and motivated. I know many people would really appreciate it.
 
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Psychopharmacology, Volume 191, Number 3 / April, 2007 has a lot of interesting articles you might be interested in. (The Issue is dubbed "Dopamine - revisited")
 
MDPVagrant said:
The survival mechanism seems an especially promising avenue of investigation to me -- if it's realized that endless compulsive ingestion of a substance is a direct threat to survival of the organism, there should be psychological and evolutionary mechanisms already in place that tend to discourage such behaviors over time, and/or aid in the unlearning process.
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I think one of the inherent logical flaws in this argument -- and any subsequent research resulting from it -- is ascribing a motive to evolution. There is no one orchestrating a grand scheme of progress; evolution just happens. It is without purpose -- if humans die off because they learn how to override evolutionarily developed reward mechanisms to their detriment, then so be it.
 
^^ Right, I missed that part. That is indeed a flawed argument. Evolution does not occur on the level of a single organism and it is not driven by motivation. Generally, those less adept at survival die and those better suited go on to reproduce. You're bypassing the survival mechanism when you take a shortcut with the brain's reward pathway. Evolution doesn't care whether or not you permanently damage/kill yourself from drugs.
 
ziddy said:
Though my knowledge of the dopamine reward system is far from comprehensive, it would stand to reason that, to the brain, DRIs are no "different" from normal dopamine-enhancing activities. Though continuous compulsive redosing of DRIs is clearly pathological, as it reduces organisms' chances of survival (neglecting food and sleep, among other essential behaviors), this is not "known" to the brain.
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If it's known to the person, it could be said to be known to the brain as well, could it not? I'm aware I'm confusing boundaries, but I wonder sometimes if hard-limited conceptual boundaries like the 'person' and the 'brain' are too arbitrary and/or just plain incorrect.

If I saw a car coming toward me at 40 miles per hour, I'd leap out of the way "without thinking" (an obvious survival mechanism). Seems to me the flash of fear prompting me to leap isn't any different than the flash of fear on suddenly realizing I could die if I keep redosing compulsively.

Edit -- Do you think urgency is a major factor in terms of the car that's missing in the redosing example?
Dondante said:
I think the neurobiology involved is extremely interesting as well, but it seems that complex mechanisms such as reward systems is still largely a black box. MDPVagrant, maybe you could work on summarizing the current literature if you're really interested and motivated. I know many people would really appreciate it.
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Appreciate the suggestion, I'll see how it fits into the scheme of things as I start developing and refining plans.
hussness said:
I think one of the inherent logical flaws in this argument -- and any subsequent research resulting from it -- is ascribing a motive to evolution. There is no one orchestrating a grand scheme of progress; evolution just happens. It is without purpose -- if humans die off because they learn how to override evolutionarily developed reward mechanisms to their detriment, then so be it.
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Thanks for pointing that out... I agree to having erred re: evolution.
 
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I think that some form of self control can be learned with these substances, if not I would be dead.

Although I still use more than most people comparatively I am very controlled, deliberately , my sanity counts for a lot !
 
Its a lifelong integration once you realize you are indeed one of those people who press the button a bit too often.

It takes a long time but it can happen.

Probably occupying your time with something other than researching and reading about dopamine would be worthwhile.

Just my two cents...peace...
 
From a recent article i, unfortunately, cannot cite addiction was identified as "disease of learning" meaning that its core peripherally lies in behavior and consciousness, rather than chemical drives.

Still it is a fascinating subject. Are you hoping to identify the chemical drive behind addictive compulsion and design a chemical that side steps it ?

The concept of the anti drug is something me and a friend have been debating about for years. Imagine taking a drug, getting high, and then taking an anti drug which brings ones brain so far back to square one, the brain doesn't know the flood gates were ever open, therefore bypassing addiction ......

its a nice thought even if it is fallacy.
 
zophen said:
I think that some form of self control can be learned with these substances, if not I would be dead.
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I remember around the time MDPV became obscure again, I felt I was genuinely getting a grip on it and that I'd begun to understand just how it affected my thinking. Unfortunately, I've completely forgotten :(.

Edit -- Actually, I should probably consider the possibility that this feeling of getting a grip and understanding MDPV was really a mental justification for continuing to relinquish control. I'm not quite enough of a cynic to say I'm sure of it though.
 
^ The trick is to make sure you actually sleep once a day for at least 5 hours.


IMO anyway.


Oh and set an upper limit on daily consumption then the tolerance issue sorts you out!

Just my opinion.
 
Some people have to completely abstain after crossing a certain point, Zophen.

Upper limits and other such rules tend to get broken in the heat of the moment. For some. Its a self-awareness thing...you have to be honest with yourself. And find something else to do with your time. Something healthy.

Stimulants are not healthy.

Researching stimulants is not healthy if you are struggling with stimulant addiction.
 
Unconscious mechanisms

MDPVagrant said:
If I saw a car coming toward me at 40 miles per hour, I'd leap out of the way "without thinking" (an obvious survival mechanism). Seems to me the flash of fear prompting me to leap isn't any different than the flash of fear on suddenly realizing I could die if I keep redosing compulsively.
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Like "forgetting" where you put the meth, the dealers phone number, washing the pants with the baggie in them, etc. Though, of course, lots of this is attibutable to being damaged and geetered out, perhaps a component of it is Life's drive to maintain itself, in spite of the folly of the conscious "driver."
 
Dondante said:
All higher forms of life have some built in mechanisms to ensure the propagation of the species. Many have developed internal reward mechanisms for appropriate behaviors; food and sex are good examples...
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Hope it's not too off topic, I was just reminded of my favorite Nancy Friday line:

"Zing! The sexual thrill of a lifetime is set off by Rover."
 
samadhi_smiles said:
Stimulants are not healthy.
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In my experience, they serve as excellent tools (in LOW doses, administered orally) in alertness-promoting and motivation-enhancing. Seeking euphoria from them, though, is indeed a major problem - it seems that this is what you mean by "not healthy".
 
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