Ok I have to chime in here. It's a very slippery slope ur choosing here. I used gear and HGH for 20 years and I did everything right. Blood work,good diet, plenty of sleep,etc. My doctor knew what I was doing and helped me be as safe as possible. All for nothing tho. At 42 I got diagnosed with Congestive Heart Failure, a damaged valve and cardiomyopathy. Many people in my area had heart attacks in their late 30s, early 40s. These are powerful drugs people and have to be treated as such. I legit did everything I was supposed to and I still had life threatening issues. Be careful bro. Especially having abused hard drugs. Good luck buddy
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SIED Moderators: Genetic Freak | Serotonin101
Steroids and the gym - the only thing to keep me off of drugs
- Thread starter OpiateKiller
- Start date
I agree that they are powerful drugs and should be treated as such.
However, I wonder whether or not you truly "did everything right". Anyone on such a program should, IMO, be taking a comprehensive protective stack, including (with respect to the heart muscle itself) multi-gram doses of taurine, abundant CoQ10 (perhaps 200 mgs/day or more), and especially potassium. Recall that the adult potassium requirement is about 4.5 grams/day, and that few people, except for some vegetarians, ever reach that. In other words, almost everyone is in a chronic low-grade potassium deficit. (Even me, with all my knowledge about potassium's import, seldom reach 4.5 grams in a day, unless I take a supplement.) But even the 4.5 grams/day might not be enough for someone with the added stress of a AAS/HGH/etc. regime. No one knows what the optimal K intake would be under such a circumstance, but my bet is that it would exceed the 4.5 grams to at least some extent. In practice, impossible without daily supplementation. And btw, taurine and potassium work together: taurine helps cells retain potassium. Magnesium is helpful for this as well. The RDI for Mg is too low at 300 mgs/day. For someone under stress as we are discussing, 600 mgs/day would I imagine be a good minimum.
But that's just stuff pertaining to the heart muscle itself. There's also the equally-important matter of blood supply; presence or absence of ischemia, or arterial blockage. This is a common cause of congestive heart and cardiomyopathy. And this goes to the whole complex (and controversial!) matter of cholesterol, lipoproteins and such. I won't try to outline procedures and stacks to avert atherosclerosis and coronary artery disease; that's the subject of a long treatise. Just note that if you are persistently (more than a few months per year) using AAS that crash HDL or induce other lipid problems, you'll have to go to great lengths to avoid vascular disease. If the use is continual, it might even not be possible to avert disease; I don't know.
How many BBers using HDL-crashing AAS drugs are on even a basic, cheap, old-fashioned stack for lipid modification: high-dose niacin with chromium, magnesium, tocopherols, lecithin and soluble fiber? Let alone more fancy stuff (statins, fibrates, toremiphene/raloxifene, etc.)? Rich Piana, Dallas McCarver, Mike Matarazzo, and dozens of others might still be alive today if they had put half as much attention on health protection as they put on their latest/greatest super-mega-AAS/etc. cycle. Or so I think, crazy sob that I am.
I don't doubt, BigJJ, that you "legit did everything you were supposed to do". I just wonder how well-informed were the people you were listening to, and whether or not they had an adequately-comprehensive grasp of the these problems and the nature of the program that might prevent them. Eating a "good diet" and getting enough sleep is only the beginning, far from adequate. IMO.
My view is: if you want bigtime results with bigtime AAS/etc. dosing, while keeping risk of catastrophic cardiovascular, renal and other outcomes in check, then accompany with bigtime protective stacks, which should occupy AT LEAST as much mental space (intellectual effort), and expense, and material tedium (doing the protective supplements and etc. every day), as your steroid stuff.
Regarding renal protection, see here:
Study - Typical BB stack of AASs, GH and high protein diet: serious kidney damage, disease
The bodybuilding lifestyle using anabolic steroids, growth hormone and high protein diet, over years, can apparently cause a variety of dreadful kidney diseases. By "complementary" in the title I assume the authors mean "using a combination of agents", in this case the typical stack just...
www.bluelight.org
PS: one more thing: my enthusiasm for potassium must be taken with a grain of... er... KCl? In people WITH existing congestive heart failure, hyperkalemia is a risk, so supplementation must be cautious. Potassium is a remedy, and people with congestive hearts do need it, but it can be overdone. Physician guidance needed! And also taurine needed, to optimize cellular transport and retention of K that is available.
OpiateKiller
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I agree that they are powerful drugs and should be treated as such.
However, I wonder whether or not you truly "did everything right". Anyone on such a program should, IMO, be taking a comprehensive protective stack, including (with respect to the heart muscle itself) multi-gram doses of taurine, abundant CoQ10 (perhaps 200 mgs/day or more), and especially potassium. Recall that the adult potassium requirement is about 4.5 grams/day, and that few people, except for some vegetarians, ever reach that. In other words, almost everyone is in a chronic low-grade potassium deficit. (Even me, with all my knowledge about potassium's import, seldom reach 4.5 grams in a day, unless I take a supplement.) But even the 4.5 grams/day might not be enough for someone with the added stress of a AAS/HGH/etc. regime. No one knows what the optimal K intake would be under such a circumstance, but my bet is that it would exceed the 4.5 grams to at least some extent. In practice, impossible without daily supplementation. And btw, taurine and potassium work together: taurine helps cells retain potassium. Magnesium is helpful for this as well. The RDI for Mg is too low at 300 mgs/day. For someone under stress as we are discussing, 600 mgs/day would I imagine be a good minimum.
But that's just stuff pertaining to the heart muscle itself. There's also the equally-important matter of blood supply; presence or absence of ischemia, or arterial blockage. This is a common cause of congestive heart and cardiomyopathy. And this goes to the whole complex (and controversial!) matter of cholesterol, lipoproteins and such. I won't try to outline procedures and stacks to avert atherosclerosis and coronary artery disease; that's the subject of a long treatise. Just note that if you are persistently (more than a few months per year) using AAS that crash HDL or induce other lipid problems, you'll have to go to great lengths to avoid vascular disease. If the use is continual, it might even not be possible to avert disease; I don't know.
How many BBers using HDL-crashing AAS drugs are on even a basic, cheap, old-fashioned stack for lipid modification: high-dose niacin with chromium, magnesium, tocopherols, lecithin and soluble fiber? Let alone more fancy stuff (statins, fibrates, toremiphene/raloxifene, etc.)? Rich Piana, Dallas McCarver, Mike Matarazzo, and dozens of others might still be alive today if they had put half as much attention on health protection as they put on their latest/greatest super-mega-AAS/etc. cycle. Or so I think, crazy sob that I am.
I don't doubt, BigJJ, that you "legit did everything you were supposed to do". I just wonder how well-informed were the people you were listening to, and whether or not they had an adequately-comprehensive grasp of the these problems and the nature of the program that might prevent them. Eating a "good diet" and getting enough sleep is only the beginning, far from adequate. IMO.
My view is: if you want bigtime results with bigtime AAS/etc. dosing, while keeping risk of catastrophic cardiovascular, renal and other outcomes in check, then accompany with bigtime protective stacks, which should occupy AT LEAST as much mental space (intellectual effort), and expense, and material tedium (doing the protective supplements and etc. every day), as your steroid stuff.
Regarding renal protection, see here:
Study - Typical BB stack of AASs, GH and high protein diet: serious kidney damage, disease
The bodybuilding lifestyle using anabolic steroids, growth hormone and high protein diet, over years, can apparently cause a variety of dreadful kidney diseases. By "complementary" in the title I assume the authors mean "using a combination of agents", in this case the typical stack just...
PS: one more thing: my enthusiasm for potassium must be taken with a grain of... er... KCl? In people WITH existing congestive heart failure, hyperkalemia is a risk, so supplementation must be cautious. Potassium is a remedy, and people with congestive hearts do need it, but it can be overdone. Physician guidance needed! And also taurine needed, to optimize cellular transport and retention of K that is available.
Funny you say CoQ10, because I actually already take that daily as it has greatly improved my blood pressure for whatever reason.
My current stacks are:
Magnesium - 1 gram before bed
CoQ10 - 2 capsules
AHCC - 3 grams daily
Spirulina / Milk Thistle / Choline and Insitol
Fish Oil - 2 grams
and Circumin
I do my best to keep all aspects of health in check
Alan Yep I did mostly what you've said. I have a background in exercise phys and chem and had my own nutrition company so I had anything at my disposal. Def my K was not that high tho. Pretty much everything else was spot on. I remember Nasser once told me to take as much test as i could afford. Hmmm I see where that took him.....anyway, my point was that the majority of people do not fear these drugs as much as they should- thats all short and sweet
JJ
JJ
Tony Williams
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Haha mate I'm similar to you. 5 years back I was badly hooked on drugs and heroin. It screwed my life so bad. I was using benzos and GBL loads too. I kicked it all but I've been on and off using stims.
Anyway last year I got back into the gym and this time wanted to stick to it. So I was open this time to using steroids. I went for the SARM LGD 4033.
I'm still on Buprenorphine and tapering abit. Stay away from the other drugs while on cycle.
There's a good chance your natural testosterone is suppressed from opiates. Or damaged.
I'd say I've swapped one addiction for another well probably will. Also injecting testosterone didn't make me crave shooting H or make me think about it it's when you draw blood you ger that.
Anyway last year I got back into the gym and this time wanted to stick to it. So I was open this time to using steroids. I went for the SARM LGD 4033.
I'm still on Buprenorphine and tapering abit. Stay away from the other drugs while on cycle.
There's a good chance your natural testosterone is suppressed from opiates. Or damaged.
I'd say I've swapped one addiction for another well probably will. Also injecting testosterone didn't make me crave shooting H or make me think about it it's when you draw blood you ger that.
Chris42393
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D
Damn bro, I'm glad to hear that!!! Hopefully, everything is going good. I just ordered some gear myself and can't wait to start my cycle. Maybe Ive had low T myself, I remember when I did my first cycle it greatly improved my self-confidence and quality of life as well. Im a heroin addict myself. Hopefully, I get the same "experience" as you did! Im currently on Kratom, which is definitely helping. But I eventually want to get off of this. Hopefully doing another cycle will help with that.
Think the biggest thing that has yet to be discussed here is genetics. Lots and lots and lots of people run ‘reasonable’ doses (a gram or less) for decades and have no major issues.
Hell, we know guys from the Golden era abused the fucked out of stuff, especially dbol and anadrol, and most of them are in surprisingly good health.
Guys like McCarver and others mentioned were using truly obscene amounts of drugs WELL over $50k a year and many using 10g+ per week. I live in the same town as Matt Jansen, actually saw him at Golds last weekend, and saw some of McCarvers protocols last year. Let’s just say 10g is low on his end.
Other guys will run reasonable doses in the range of 200-600mg for long periods and have major health issues like some guys that have spoken up here on blue light.
Moral of the story is do your due diligence but, at the end of the day, be willing to accept any and all outcomes that come with using or abusing PEDs. If someone is okay with that, or determines that whatever benefits they receive outweigh the risks, then more power to them.
Hell, we know guys from the Golden era abused the fucked out of stuff, especially dbol and anadrol, and most of them are in surprisingly good health.
Guys like McCarver and others mentioned were using truly obscene amounts of drugs WELL over $50k a year and many using 10g+ per week. I live in the same town as Matt Jansen, actually saw him at Golds last weekend, and saw some of McCarvers protocols last year. Let’s just say 10g is low on his end.
Other guys will run reasonable doses in the range of 200-600mg for long periods and have major health issues like some guys that have spoken up here on blue light.
Moral of the story is do your due diligence but, at the end of the day, be willing to accept any and all outcomes that come with using or abusing PEDs. If someone is okay with that, or determines that whatever benefits they receive outweigh the risks, then more power to them.
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I wanna say Dallas's autopsy basically put it at 10g of test alone in his blood, not counting other things, when he died. It's ridiculous how much they use. Who needs seo when you're pinning enough gear that it acts as seo.
OpiateKiller
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You know I really wonder if my whole life I just had severely low testosterone, I weighed 125 my senior year of high school and was just generally depressed and anxious... The only test I got done was in a rehab coming off of a suboxone / heroin run and my test was 240 at age 23. I can't say for sure if this was because of drug use, but honestly I think I was destined for TRT from the start. Steroids have completely revamped my life and my confidence / mind state. Don't get me wrong, I do get mood swings and I do have some side effects from them, like acne, slight anger and some down days, but overall I can't see myself ever stopping. Even if I just cruise Sust / Test C at 200 mg a week, I have no problem sticking a needle in my ass cheek twice a week until I'm 75 haha.
somnilicious
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One of my friends from NA had a heart attack and died last year at the age of 39. He was a known steroid user.
Chris42393
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Could have had an unknown preexisting cardiac condition possibly? And something just set it off? Im sorry to hear that bro, that definitely sucks...
I work for Fire/Rescue and I had a 38-year-old patient who had a heart attack too. Dude was in perfect health. He started showing certain symptoms (why he dialed 911) and died shortly after getting to the hospital.
Chris42393
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Thats how I was too brotha (I was 135). I was dumb and did a few cycles towards the end of my senior year (I know, way too early... Except I was joining the Navy for the SEALs) and got to 170 and felt 1000% times better. It was amazing how good I was feeling. I'm sure it was low T (my sex drive was low, had depression, etc. etc). I have no problem doing the same thing. One of my good friends is on TRT as well. I should be getting my gear by next week. Got 3 vials of Sust 250. I hope it works.
Anyways I started having seizures after I joined the Navy, so it was all for nothing lol Got kicked out.
Is that supposed to mean something...?
somnilicious
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It means the coroner told his mom he had left ventricle damage....and a magnitude of studies link steroid use to heart problems, specifically left ventricle weakness. He was a known steroid user. Infer what you want from the statement as correlation doesn't always equal causation but there is ample evidence to suggest that link. Just food for thought. Don't let me ruin your juice party.
OpiateKiller
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This is good insight definitely could have been related. I wonder if he was running Tren for a long time which can be particularly rough on the heart. Hate to say it but being in NA very possible he was an ex heavy cocaine or crack addict which also does extensive damage to the heart.
Well yeah LVT is a known risk factor of AAS use. And arstheriochlerosis is a known risk factor of the average American diet. Don’t see people on street corners yelling at people to put down their burgers though like people yell at dudes on test
That was in no way meant to be mean or asshole-ish btw, just the reality of things. This is a steroid forum focused on harm reduction so everyone, or almost everyone, here is using and aware of the risks along with how, or learning how, to reduce them
somnilicious
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Look... I'm on no street corner. Dude asked in public forum if using steroids for life was safe, so I tried to shed light on how it may not be so safe to juice your whole life. I think it's pretty sound harm reduction. Just like if you were to visit OD and ask is it safe to do heroin your whole life, someone probably gonna bring up addiction and overdose. I'm not saying steroids are as dangerous heroin... Simply showing that my harm reduction point is valid... Caveat emptor.... Heard plenty about fast food being bad for heart from street corners and such... His death was first I heard of heart-steroid link... Me thinks your being a bit too sensitive and protective of your pet....and while were on the subject I had a friend, who juiced and he started getting progressively touchy and agitated over years of use. He wound slapping his girlfriend because she wouldnt give him head. This was very uncharacteristic of him and prompted him to quit just more food for thought... Btw.... I have considered steroid use and still do.
Monkeyballs1234
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I would come off the gear. Do a PCT, wait a month do a test for natty test levels. If low move onto HRT/TRT. This will give you more than sufficient hormone to create a good physique. Pick some other healthy physical pursuits like rock climbing and swimming. Bodybuilding is awesome, but I just don’t think it will be enough to sustain you. Plus the temptation to run other compounds will be very high.
Chances are, with the years of exogenous test you have used, you t levels are compromised and you may have to look at HRT regardless.
Chances are, with the years of exogenous test you have used, you t levels are compromised and you may have to look at HRT regardless.
OpiateKiller
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To be honest there's no reason for me to seek a doctor's opinion. I can get pharmaceutical testosterone cheap and easily sustain it for the rest of my life. In my experience I believe I could come off and recover somewhat quickly, I honestly believe I haven't damaged much. When having low test to begin with what's their really to lose? I've came off gear for a few months and found I was fine without it, despite lower sex drive and less muscle. I have no problem being on TRT / HRT prescribed or not for life
Monkeyballs1234
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I can’t argue with that. I’m gonna be on trt for life with intermittent blasting. But I had my first hit of test when I was 33.
The only thing that I would argue with and reinforce is that due to shutting down you natural test production for so long, you will have had an effect on you ability to bounce back. But like you say, you have embraced trt for life
The only thing that I would argue with and reinforce is that due to shutting down you natural test production for so long, you will have had an effect on you ability to bounce back. But like you say, you have embraced trt for life