Statues of traitors proudly displayed in the US Capital Building.

[zephyr]

USA can not rewrite their own history any more than North Korea or Japan can (and they have actually tried to do this!).

America has a pretty rich history and its not all rainbows and unicorns. Just accept it. You were not around at the time of the civil wars. So learn from your history.

 

[Scrofula]

The Teapot Dome Scandal. Never forget!!

 

[David Wooderson]

USA can not rewrite their own history any more than North Korea or Japan can (and they have actually tried to do this!).

America has a pretty rich history and its not all rainbows and unicorns. Just accept it. You were not around at the time of the civil wars. So learn from your history.

My mother and sisters are daughters of the revolutionary war,(NORTH) no but my relatives fought for something I can say with respect in retrospect was a truly valid cause.

The fact and stories of how two nations divided with all international interest, all that money..... to come together again, and be one country of one people deserves respect on both sides. It shows advances in society, how we came together back in the 19th century, against all odds.

It deserves the fact that there are two sides, I do not promote racist delusional ideology.

But the American civil war is so interesting that people that have no basis of opinion on the civil war are saying the statues should be torn down, that to me screams of some from of trickery.

Why now?

When have we come together so great that we can tear down all symbols, history of culture based on today's popular opinion?

That is unamerican to me.

That sounds like what ISIS is doing in the middle east, destroying any engraved history that doesn't run with their current ideology.

Sickening.

Obama put into place a scheme for universal healthcare. That divided people somewhat. Trump squashed it and divided more people by the square root of the oreviously divided people.

Can you link me a single riot that shut down traffic over healthcare???

Mr. Wooderson I don't know what the hell you're saying.

But I just thought of a solution: what if southerners just started flying the US flag? Maybe a Waffle House flag?

Shit, find a new symbol already if you need to let everyone know you're from the south.

I dunno maybe because I'm not from the south so I have no business saying what flag they fly.

I come from a place where people mind there own business, I cant relate to their past so why do I or you have the power to decide if they can express the history that was meant to e preserved be taken down??

That is the beauty that makes the UNITED states, and not a single country, it's what makes us the envy of the world.

 

[Scrofula]

You folks, @David_Wooderson, seem to think these monuments are textbooks that explain history.

They're not, they're homages, they put the objects in a positive light, you literally put them on a pedestal and look up to them. If they're flags, you wave them. That's not remembering history, it's hagiography. That's what I'm opposed to. And as I said, I support a country that lets you fly an enemy flag on your own property, but I think it's wrong to have an enemy flag on PUBLIC property, when displayed as an object of respect.

That's tax dollars promoting revisionism.

Do you think that because you can't fly a swastika legally in Germany, suddenly everyone forgets WWII?

What I'm opposed to is the promotion of a FALSE history. That is what public monuments to the confederacy do.

You're more than welcome to build all the shrines to the confederacy you want on your own property, or drive around Dukes of Hazard style. You might want to stay out of some neighborhoods though. And if some people think that means you're a racist, you'll have to deal with it. But you are, of course, absolutely free to do so.

OK: so, diorama of a Civil War battle at the Smithsonian and portraits of leaders in the National Gallery =/= triumphant statue of Jefferson Davis on a horse in the public square. If that helps any. Otherwise, we agree.

And shit, state's still do it. Folks bitch like it's been made a capital offense. We point out that your own (I don't believe you're not Southern) southern sense of respect would say, "don't put enemy flags in front of the courthouse" and y'all wail and moan about it.

 

[David Wooderson]

OK: so, diorama of a Civil War battle at the Smithsonian and portraits of leaders in the National Gallery =/= triumphant statue of Jefferson Davis on a horse in the public square. If that helps any. Otherwise, we agree.

It is interesting what you consider acceptable and what should be banned, reminds me of what hitler and stalin did in their prime.

 

[Escher's Waterfall]

Lets change the plaques then.

Leave the statues, but have a nice plaque explaining how these men promoted armed rebellion against the US that killed a half million people all because they wanted to have a nation that gave them the right to enslave other people.

 

[Escher's Waterfall]

The Teapot Dome Scandal. Never forget!!

We may be reliving it.

 

[Scrofula]

In case you doubted my belief that you can fly whatever, here's what hangs over my bed.
It's not exactly the confederate flag, but there's some major stars-and-bars themes (my mother was born in Arkansas):

 

[David Wooderson]

Lets change the plaques then.

Leave the statues, but have a nice plaque explaining how these men promoted armed rebellion against the US that killed a half million people all because they wanted to have a nation that gave them the right to enslave other people.

I agree, 100%...in putting a surgeons general type warning on all southern artifacts and facsimiles, but that is my opion of someone who did not spend any time in the south besides flying or driving through....do you live in a state tat displays a confederate flag in any official form or function?

If so and you feel it s wrong do something about it legally.

If not why do you care?

The fact that certain states displayed it made me question it, (THAT IS TRUE EDUCATION), I then found there were many stories of merit on both sides but in the end we came back together.

Is the modern prison industrial complex modeled after a desperate attempt preserve slavery in the south and is now practiced in EVERY state?

YES!

Are there technically more slaves in America due to sex slavery and work bondage today than the 19th century?

YES!

So it's important to now that so that future minds can make this country better.

It took me saying why "why are they allowed to display that flag? (confederate)" for me to understand the duality of culture, and have a new sense of respect on how we came back together to be better than ever and the only supreme super power in the modern world. Yes slaves were a huge part and I'm not underestimating that but there were so many other factors that can get lost when all we say is "TRAITORS....SLAVERY!!!".

We need to get better at cutting through the left and right rhetoric and making the right choices based on our hearts versus whatever any dummy on TV says.

It's that also lesson in duality that can make people open their eyes on how to see through most of the b.s. promoted by media outlets.

 

[Scrofula]

It is interesting what you consider acceptable and what should be banned, reminds me of what hitler and stalin did in their prime.

You're just trolling right? An "unequal sign" means just that, not "send in the gestapo".

 

[David Wooderson]

You're just trolling right? An "unequal sign" means just that, not "send in the gestapo".

Not sure what you mean.

If I seen a bumper sticker with an unequal sign (equal crossed out) I would not automatically think send in the gestapo

please explain

Not all cultures are equal, that is precisely why we have our current geography.

 

[Scrofula]

I said that a statue honoring a confederate leader is not the same thing as a historical recreation in a museum, and I used an "unequal sign". You said "interesting to see what you consider appropriate and what you want banned. I never said "banned". I made the point at least three times now that I never said banned. No one has said "banned" in this thread. I posted a damn photo with stars n bars that I sleep under.

We're arguing for the same thing in a different way. You say "leave the memorials up, for education because slavery is bad", and I'm saying "If you leave them up like that, it'll be MISeducation and people WON'T think slavery is bad."

I think you're sincere, but then you say "not all cultures are equal," which is likely to freak some people out, so I don't know how sincere you are after all.

We need @d1nach to come in with a health problem right now.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

I agree, 100%...in putting a surgeons general type warning on all southern artifacts and facsimiles, but that is my opion of someone who did not spend any time in the south besides flying or driving through....do you live in a state tat displays a confederate flag in any official form or function?

If so and you feel it s wrong do something about it legally.

If not why do you care?

The fact that certain states displayed it made me question it, (THAT IS TRUE EDUCATION), I then found there were many stories of merit on both sides but in the end we came back together.

Is the modern prison industrial complex modeled after a desperate attempt preserve slavery in the south and is now practiced in EVERY state?

YES!

Are there technically more slaves in America due to sex slavery and work bondage today than the 19th century?

YES!

So it's important to now that so that future minds can make this country better.

It took me saying why "why are they allowed to display that flag? (confederate)" for me to understand the duality of culture, and have a new sense of respect on how we came back together to be better than ever and the only supreme super power in the modern world. Yes slaves were a huge part and I'm not underestimating that but there were so many other factors that can get lost when all we say is "TRAITORS....SLAVERY!!!".

We need to get better at cutting through the left and right rhetoric and making the right choices based on our hearts versus whatever any dummy on TV says.

It's that also lesson in duality that can make people open their eyes on how to see through most of the b.s. promoted by media outlets.

agreed its just the confederate side (republican party) displaying their flag. the civil war never stopped as you are alluding to. Its just fought via government now...and sometimes still with guns even as we saw yesterday.

 

[David Wooderson]

agreed its just the confederate side (republican party) displaying their flag. the civil war never stopped as you are alluding to. Its just fought via government now...and sometimes still with guns even as we saw yesterday.

Kinda, I dunno I do not have a firm opinion on that.
I do not believe Trump & Co are of the stock, imo they hijacked and Frankenstein'd the party.
The civil war has been over for quite some time, there are some remnants but it's been over and there has never been a time in America where a black person has more opportunity.
Are you saying those politicians were somehow "asking for it" simply by being southern republicans?

Whom are the party of modern terrorists then?

 

[Escher's Waterfall]

It took me saying why "why are they allowed to display that flag? (confederate)" for me to understand the duality of culture, and have a new sense of respect on how we came back together to be better than ever and the only supreme super power in the modern world. Yes slaves were a huge part and I'm not underestimating that but there were so many other factors that can get lost when all we say is "TRAITORS....SLAVERY!!!".

From the perspective of the Confederates, it boils down to slavery. The slave states wanted the power to keep slaves. They wanted the federal government to enforce its power, overriding states' rights, to protect slavery. They threw a hissy fit as soon as an abolitionist got elected, then attacked a federal base, starting the war.

There ain't much to salvage here.

 

[David Wooderson]

From the perspective of the Confederates, it boils down to slavery. The slave states wanted the power to keep slaves. They wanted the federal government to enforce its power, overriding states' rights, to protect slavery. They threw a hissy fit as soon as an abolitionist got elected, then attacked a federal base, starting the war.

There ain't much to salvage here.

As far as boiling don to slavery, whom do you think benefited slavery the most? The Koch Bro's of that era or your average Jethro?

That is one story, another is how a family from the north became diehard racists due to loosing their sons who were drafted into a war they had no part or opinion in.

There are so many different dichotomies to the American civil war and it is what set us apart from all the western European countries that spit into new countries with new cultures.

 

[alpha_centauri]

that's, to me, laughable nonsense. but humour me - what did obama do to divide people. what is trump doing to unite people?

when you can't make your point without insulting people, you're a divider too.

alasdair

Which way didn't Obama divide people? If you believe he brought people together you've had your head in the sand and have not been paying attention at all.


On the contrary. Leftists/Antifas-especially the ones who are arguing for Sharia law, and the whole 'resistance' movement act foolish, so therefore they are idiots and fools.

Or if you have not turned on the world news in the past few days a leftist/antifas Bernie bro attempted to murder several United States politicians simply because he did not agree with them. Of course the United States' politician Loretta 'Blood in the Streets, Bill in the Sheets' Lynch is a huge fool and totally corrupt. I am glad I am not living in the United States.

 

[alpha_centauri]

From the perspective of the Confederates, it boils down to slavery. The slave states wanted the power to keep slaves. They wanted the federal government to enforce its power, overriding states' rights, to protect slavery. They threw a hissy fit as soon as an abolitionist got elected, then attacked a federal base, starting the war.

There ain't much to salvage here.

Study history more. The Civil war was NOT about freeing the slaves, getting rid of slavery, or the rights of slaves, etc. or whatever nonsense revisionist history they are teaching in schools and universities now. It is called the war between the states or the war of northern aggression for a reason. The Southern states were extremely wealthy, more so than the northern states, and when the Northern states invaded the south, the southern states fought back.

FYI, in case you did not know this Northerners and Northern states in the United States both owned slaves at one time and engaged in the slave trade from Africa.

 

[David Wooderson]

We're arguing for the same thing in a different way. You say "leave the memorials up, for education because slavery is bad", and I'm saying "If you leave them up like that, it'll be MISeducation and people WON'T think slavery is bad."

I think you're sincere, but then you say "not all cultures are equal," which is likely to freak some people out, so I don't know how sincere you are after all.

The only reason there is current strife with those monuments is to divide our population.

The media talks about russian involvment in the election.

You want to know my opinion?

It's our enemies that causes strife within our own populace through rioting and constant marching and extreme leftist groups.

The recent woman's march was financed by middle eastern checkbooks, its a common strategy of war for an opposing force, to take over a cause and mold it to their will.

Study history more.
FYI, in case you did not know this Northerners and Northern states in the United States both owned slaves at one time and engaged in the slave trade from Africa.

QFT

 

[alpha_centauri]

Lets change the plaques then.

Leave the statues, but have a nice plaque explaining how these men promoted armed rebellion against the US that killed a half million people all because they wanted to have a nation that gave them the right to enslave other people.

That would be utterly pointless, and it reaks of being way too PC.

FFS, this reminds me of those fools who are Rhodes scholars who are angry at British colonialism and want to completely erase history or revise it for their own agenda. 8)

While we are at it, why not put up statues and monuments in the various African countries where various black African tribes enslaved other tribes, and then sold them to Arabs, Spanish, and Portuguese? 8) Slavery has never ended in some African countries and middle Eastern countries, but keep going on about how you want to revise the history of the United States to suit your own agenda.