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  • LAVA Moderator: Shinji Ikari

Speeding vs. law enforcement discussion

Fjones, Ive read thru pretty much this whole thread, and I can see shit from all sides a little bit. The one thing you might want to work on is your tone. You might not realize it, but you come off as bein very douchey in this thread. I aint saying you ARE one. I think you are prolly a pretty cool guy. :) But from your attitude and the way you respond to people on here, I hate to say it but you are undermining yourself and your arguements by posting in such a confrontational way. You might think you are just bein firm and forceful, but the reason so many people are gettin turned off from this discussion is becuz you just wont let shit go. We all like to debate sometimes. Shit, Im a heroin addict and my mother knows it. Its caused her endless pain and suffering, yet for some reason not too long ago I felt the need to debate with her about why heroin should be legalized. 8o DICK MOVE on my part! :o

I just say that to point out to you that you aint the only person that enjoys a good debate , and the fact that you are debating it dont necessarily mean you are personally invested in that shit. BUT wat Ive found over time is that when you got the desire to KEEP GOING with the debate, long after evevryone else is like dude, fuck it, you can have it, cuz i am just too tired of your shit to keep doing this - It usually means that whether or not you realize it, you are catching feelings about it. Its ok, it happens to everyone sometimes. Or maybe you just realllllly get into your typing, and you dont care at all, and totally have no interest in this wat so ever and are just posting for the hell of a logical exercise. But it seems like you are puttin alot of energy into this, like a dog that just keeps shaking watever deaad thing is in its mouth and wont let go of it.

So just let go a little bit dude. The people of BL aint a mass of uneducated logic-lacking idiots. Its just that when you approach this topic with the extreme attitude you take, and get all worked up over it, people are less likely to WANT to spend their time debatin with you and instead are just like...Wat the fucks his problem?

You are sayin that you make effort to stay away from personal attacks, etc, and thats great, logically your arguments are prolly sound, I really cant say cuz i never took no classes about that. But it aint always just about cold logic. its also about how you interact with people and how you treat people. Comin on here and having a argument that has no logical flaws in it is cool n all, but who the hell wants to debate that with a dude thats so self righteous and abrasive? It takes the fun out of it when you take this shit so damn serious. I think you would have a lot more people in here posting if you changed your approach a lil bit, becuz many ppl are put off by the tone u showing. I aint tryna say much more and get a grade-A rant against me courtesy of you lol. But I just wanted to post that as a totally uninterested observer who really dont give a shit about either side of it and got no affiliation with any of the posters in this thread, i think you could cool it out a lil bit and it might be beneficial to your case. :)
 
alasdairm said:
you're getting very frustrated by this conversation. my point is that you imply that those who disagree with you just "don't get it". maybe they do get it - they just disagree with you - the two are not mutually exclusive.

you complain that others attack you not your argument but when somebody disagrees with your argument, you just accuse them of not getting it.

communication is a two way street. if you're getting angry or upset at others because they don't understand you, consider that it's also a possibility that you're not making your point as well as you think you are.

alasdair
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I usually consider the fact that I am better skilled than other at making my point. This is well evident from seeing the amazingly high number of fallacies and errors in logic that people use.

When I say someone "doesn't get it," it is because the person has either attacked me instead of my argument, or has resorted to a logical fallacies.

Most people don't even know what a logical fallacy is, hence my complaint that a lot of people "don't get it."

If you actually read some of my posts, both here and elsewhere, you'll see that when people construct a proper response to my points, I say so by saying "that's a good point," or "You make a reasonable point there," or "I think we understand each other's points so we'll just have to agree to disagree."

As for the possibility that I am not making my points as clear as I think I am -- When Impacto Profundo asked me to clarify my points and I did, they were made clear as day. I cannot help it if people choose to ignore them.

Logical debate is a fairly simple process. If I say, "POINT -- The enforcement of speed limits is more about money than safety, and here are the reasons," an appropriate response from someone who disagrees would be to examine the reasons I gave and refute them. There was nothing unclear about my points, people just chose to ignore them sometimes because that's what people do when they cannot refute someone's argument. People do it, politicians do it, everyone does it. It's one of the oldest tricks in the book.
 
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LoveAlways said:
good post lacey
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I agree. I responded to her through a PM. I intend to focus on being more tactful and less confrontational. We'll see how that goes. All I promise to do it try. I cannot guarantee success, especially since sometimes it seems as though some BLers just enjoy antagonizing me.

But I am going to try. If I think someone is wrong or is antagonizing me or is not making a valid point, I will try to calmly explain why and give my counter argument. I hope this results in some productive discussion.
 
No BL'ers enjoy antagonizing you Fjones.They simply answered the question of the thread, you got very confrontational when they disagreed, to which they stated their reasons for believing the opposite to you. I think you are misinterpreting what people are saying, they are not personally attacking you in any way.

Anyway; my stance is that speeding is dangerous depending on the circumstance. I am guilty of speeding reguarly on the freeway at night, I'll admit. But I don't condone it or think it is safe. Your reaction time is hindered greatly. In Australia we have a campaign 'Wipe Off Five' which basically is talking about how much greater the damage can be even 5km/h faster.
Link to Info About 'Wipe Off 5'
Case Study
WipeOff5.gif
 
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It really depends how much you're speeding, where, and when.

For example; my friend got a very expensive ticket for driving 100 mph a few months ago while I was in the car with her. While I would agree 99% of the time that that is extremely dangerous, we were on the highway at 5 AM and literally had not seen ONE other car for 2 hours. She was sober and besides the speeding not breaking any laws. Then a cop flies on from an exit and gives her a ticket.

Dangerous?

I do not think so. Had there been even a few other cars I would disagree, but why should you drive 55 mph if you are alone on a highway?

Most of the time, as long as you are not speeding to the point of it being really obvious I do not see the danger. People that are speeding and flying in and out of lanes = dangerous. People that are speeding but in a lane where everyone else is speeding or is empty = not dangerous.
 
There are a lot of posts I want to reply to, as I have fallen behind here. So, I will keep this brief but I plan to be more thorough tomorrow or later on.

Claire, thank you for the stats and the chart. I appreciate the info and I will give my thoughts, though I basically agree with what the data suggests and what Mia is saying.

Mia -- You summed up very well how I feel about the situation. I think what you and I both agree on, and what the data shows, is that driving fast is safer on empty roads.

I have gotten many a ticket in those situations, and it is very frustrating.

I also agree that weaving in and out of lanes is bad. I used to do that many years ago. I don't now.

I used to drive very aggressively. I changed lanes constantly, slid in between whatever narrow gap I could find, tailgated, cut people off, raced other drivers, and roared out of every stop light when it turned green. I took a lot of unnecessary risks.

Several years back, I stopped doing all of that EXCEPT for the speeding. I still drive fast, but i do NOT do any of those other things. I get into the left lane, and drive at what many agree is a reasonable speed. When I approach a car, I slow down such that I am matching his speed. If traffic is light and he does not appear to want to go faster, I might pass him on the right and eventually get back into the fast lane once I am clear of him.

I do not feel that this makes me a bad driver. I consider myself a good and safe driver. I think that going + or - 10 MPH from the flow of traffic on a multi-lane highway is safe.

Others here disagree, and that is okay. We can respect all of our differing opinions. The goal in a discussion is to understand each other's opinions, not attack others who disagree. I have been guilty of escalating this discussion to a confrontational standoff at times, and for that I apologize.

I am making an effort to improve in this area and I hope people take note of that effort and judge me going forward, and not on past disputes.
 
Fjones said:
I agree. I responded to her through a PM. I intend to focus on being more tactful and less confrontational. We'll see how that goes. All I promise to do it try. I cannot guarantee success, especially since sometimes it seems as though some BLers just enjoy antagonizing me.

But I am going to try. If I think someone is wrong or is antagonizing me or is not making a valid point, I will try to calmly explain why and give my counter argument. I hope this results in some productive discussion.
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I think you do a great job of arguing your point. that is quite a skill that will certainly come in handy in life. corporations pay large salaries for individuals with talents like yours.
 
Fjones, I used to be a leadfoot without shame. I used to brag that I could get from Philly to NYC in two hours, so long as there was no snow. I used to think the same thing you did -- that speeding was a bullshit scheme to raise more money for the coppers. I was one capricious driver -- I had people who cared about me tell me I drove like an aggressive maniac. I've handled Third World driving before, I when I moved back to the US I thought driving here was cake. Everybody was so damn law abiding that I could break a few road rules and probably be just fine.

I got my license taken away, after I got 3 75-in-a-45s, and one stoplight that wasn't quite yellow anymore. My one pot bust also happened because I was speeding -- 85 in a 55. (Never break more than one law at once.) Also paid about $2k in fines and fees, all told, before I drove again, not counting the marijuana charge.

But you wanna know the worst part? My car simply didn't hold up the way it should've. High speeds stress a car in many ways, from making the oil degrade faster, to producing more heat and friction at all the moving parts. When I was forced to junk that car, the mechanic who picked it up remarked that 140k miles is young for a 7 year old Nissan Sentra to die.

I do think that speed traps are largely about revenue, just like pot busts are. I also think the idea that saving money (on road repair, petroleum, etc.) is a motive behind keeping many, if not most, posted speed limits artificially low. Thirdly, I think there's a bit of avoidance-of-boat-rocking involved in local governments' reluctance to set speed limits unprecedentedly high, even if those speeds might indeed be demonstrably safe for that road.

But none of this adds up to speed limits being silly across the board, in my mind. Posted speed limits give drivers a rough idea of how treacherous a road they're driving on, relative to other roads. The speed limit on the two-lane state highway I'm driving on didn't just drop from 45 to 30 so that the cops could set up a speed trap there. It dropped because the road is leaving a rural area and entering a town, where the possibility of potential obstacles is dramatically higher.

With a more efficient government, and more action from concerned citizens, I think we could definitely see higher speed limits, (ranging up to 80mph in some places, maybe) and laxer enforcement. I can't see any good coming of doing away with speed limits altogether, though.
 
Yes. My style of driving would change from driving to not driving, since I would not want to get arrested for driving on a revoked license :)
 
To say driving fast isn't dangerous is kind of like saying playing with fire is safe.
Driving fast does nothing for me. I try to stay between the speed limit and 10 MPH over it. Driving fast + collision equals very high chance of death or major injury.....and I have a fear of getting pulled over...I get reoccurring nightmares8o
 
^ Yeah that's what scared the road rules into me. The ease with which the cops were able to turn a routine traffic stop into an arrest for marijuana has really put me in a once-bitten-twice-shy mood when it comes to getting pulled over or attracting cops' attention for any reason.
 
I'm late to this thread but how many people do you know that died from drugs? How many do you know that died from car accidents?

Most everyone I know who died has died in a car accident.
 
yougene said:
I'm late to this thread but how many people do you know that died from drugs? How many do you know that died from car accidents?

Most everyone I know who died has died in a car accident.
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Misuse of drugs can result in death or injury from drugs.

Misuse of a car can result in death or injury from cars.

Misuse oif handguns can result in accidental death from guns.

Misue of ABCDEFG can result in death from ABCDEFG.

Ther point of this thread is that I, the OP, do not agree that merely driving 80 MPH on a well lit highway constitutes such misuse.

The title of the thread is what I was getting at. Is speeding inherently dangerous? Yes, there are dangerous things one can do in a car, but why do some just blanket all speeds above a (somewhat arbitrary) speed limit as "dangerous?"

There is the obvious fact that the faster a car goes, the less reaction time a driver has and the greater the stopping distance. But, we must be careful to avoid applying that fact carelessly, otherwise we'll end up with a scenario where we all sit aroudn all day in parked cars. After all, every 1MPH by which we increase our speed above 0 causes an increase in risk.

But, technology has improved over the decades, and I don't see why we can't aim to increase our rate of travel without increasing injuries or fatalities.

ALso, I have made this point manytimes, but I'll rehash it here -- I don't hear anyone complaining about tractor trailers goign the 65 MPH speed limit. Do people not realize how much less maneuvarability an 18-wheeler has at 65 MPH than a car has at 80 MPH? I just do NOT understand how society can reasonable say that a truck can safely go 65 but a car who is goign 80 MPH is a hazard.

Which, again, is why I say it is all about the money. A car goes 80 MPH, which isn't really dangerous, he gets a ticket, goes to court, gets some kind of hackneyed "think of the children" speech from a judge, pays a $200 fine and increased insurance costs so everyone in the system gets a little more money, and everyone is happy. Oh, except for the motorist, who was just driving along minding his own business when his tiem and money were wasted by the above described system.
 
MyDoorsAreOpen said:
^ Yeah that's what scared the road rules into me. The ease with which the cops were able to turn a routine traffic stop into an arrest for marijuana has really put me in a once-bitten-twice-shy mood when it comes to getting pulled over or attracting cops' attention for any reason.
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The US Supreme Court recently ruled that cops aren't allowed to turn routine traffic stops into searches for marijuana anymore.

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=433696
 
yougene said:
I'm late to this thread but how many people do you know that died from drugs? How many do you know that died from car accidents?

Most everyone I know who died has died in a car accident.
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How many of them were speeding, and how many of the accidents were their fault?

Or did they die as passengers or from oncoming traffic crossing into their lane?
 
I think if you are using the two second rule on the motorway, even if you are speeding then it is fine.
For example I was travelling 120 mph on the motorway last night and felt in complete control, I kept looking ahead to see the lights of other cars in front of me and would simply take my foot off the accelerator in time to come up behind them to then over take as they moved over lanes.
 
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