So.... who cares about the meth addicts?

[mostly-human]

super old thread and I'm not reading it all, so this is probably all covered.

That said - my 2cents.

I was an IV meth addict for years and it was extremely debilitating. During this time I dabbled and binged here and there with heroin, but never truly formed an addiction. Later in life I did. And I can honestly say, the two are not even in the same realm of experience. That said - being a meth addict is far more destructive to your life than being a heroin addict. But the orders of magnitude by which the meth addiction is easier to overcome than the heroin addiction is just beyond description.

 

[Crankinit]

mate, with what him and his mate got away with; he could a flown one way to the golden triangle, bought a bit of land and watched the back of his eye lids for the rest of his days without a care in the world (besides ODing or being shot/stabbed by some SE asain smack peddlers)

The secret dream of every junky. Wonder how many actually ever pull it together enough to manage.

atleast he didnt dog out his mate.. funny bit of trivia, I was smoking bongs in the fruit n veg coolroom with the crew workin there (they were all my mates) of that store 45 minutes before they kicked the door in.. talk about bailing at the right time eh

No kidding. Especially taking the bongs into account - getting held up stoned wouldn't be the most pleasant drug experience ever (although it would make for a good trip report)

is candy a book? fuck, I just ordered the DVD of which Ive already seen.. would much rather the book

Yeah the movie is based on the book, which is pretty much based on the author's time as an addict in the 80's and early 90's. They update the setting in the movie to the 00's, and rearrange it a fair bit (the book isn't entirely linear and there are a lot of asides and random anecdotes which work really well in a book, but would be terrible in a movie, Geoffrey Rush's role was expanded to fit his status, which was actually an improvement - but only a few of the alterations have a major impact on the core or quality of the overall story). So yeah, all in all, they're different enough that you can enjoy the book even if you've seen the movie, and it's a great movie and a solid adaption of the source material (although one or two of the things they leave out alters the dynamic of the relationship between the two main characters in a way that I feel really slants it in one direction and paints Dan as a bit more of a scummy loser than he was in the book).

In fact I'm not sure I'd have enjoyed it as much the other way around, the movie set a vibe and an image of the characters for me which I carried over into the book and which I feel enhanced it, and if I read the book before the movie I'd be too busy trying to match them up to actually just relax and enjoy it for a great movie. So don't worry, enjoy the movie, then go read the book (as long as you're not trying to stay clean from opiates, because it's not so much a trigger as an invitation for your opioid receptors to stage a full scale mutiny and shut your brain down till their demands for more stimulation are met).

One of the few pieces of junkie lit/junkie film I actually enjoy, they both capture something of the feel, the essence, of heroin, and conveys it perfectly, in a way that almost no drug movies manage, while also depicting the narrow, binary nature of addiction and, in their relationship, the way addiction survives on lies and self deception. The book, especially, gives a window into what it meant to use heroin and be part of that scene, what that scene was like, in a certain part of Australia at a certain stage in history (mid 80's - early 90's Melbourne and Sydney).

Won't go into the whole comparison anymore, don't wanna ruin it for ya Just enjoy them both.

Another great heroin film is Little Fish. Also an Aussie film (no idea why our film industry managed to nail the heroin flick last decade). Also has a great cast (Cate Blanchett, Hugo Weaving, Sam Neill, Noni Hazlehurst - who funnily enough plays the mother of the main female addict character in both movies), and also nails the vibe of heroin (if you watch it, compare some of the imagery and scenes to Candy).And like Candy (the book this time), it paints a portrait of what it meant to use heroin in a place and time in Australia (this time Cabramatta back when that scene was active in the 90's, which is an interesting contrast to the scene shown in the Candy book) and comments perfectly on the way addiction seems to halt the addicts development, the effect it has on their life and the lives of the people around them, even after the drug is gone. Don't think it's all navel gazing and whining about being a junkie though, the latter half of the movie is ramps up the action and it gets very tense.

Sorry, didn't mean to hijack the meth thread for a review of Australian 00's Junkie filmography Although on that note, I still feel nobody has nailed meth as a drug in any medium. Even Breaking Bad failed - don't get me wrong, it was an amazing show, but it totally failed to portray meth as a drug, what it's like, why people use it, why they get addicted to it, why they keep using even when it ruins their life (not that I claim to have an in depth understanding of most of those questions, having never been a full blown meth addict)

 

[spacejunk]

^ totally OT but I read the book long before I saw the film; it's great - very gritty and intense. No sugarcoating or pointless glorification; the horror of serious addiction is laid out plain.
As for 'meth influenced art' - if we're talking "any medium" I personally can't go past the 2nd Velvet Underground record, White Light/White Heat. The references may be a little obscure for some...but the whole 60s New York underground (warhol's factory, etc) was fuelled by meth when liquid vials of pharmaceutical grade stuff were still around, and "pep pills" had not yet been entirely stigmatised, and were widely available.
Creativity; manic, spaced-out, drifting into psychosis.

Not the same as the Australian crystal meth experience/culture, but some pretty fucking crazy shit nonetheless.

As for recovering from addiction, amphetamine is a tough one; determination and counselling seem to have the best results that I've seen. Or - determination and distraction; immersing the recovering user in some other form of mentally stimulating or challenging lifestyle, such as travel, demanding work or study.
Sitting around waiting for motivation to return, without making life changes that make require you to push yourself, is not giving yourself the best chance at succeeding in my opinion.

 

[Crankinit]

As for 'meth influenced art' - if we're talking "any medium" I personally can't go past the 2nd Velvet Underground record, White Light/White Heat. The references may be a little obscure for some...but the whole 60s New York underground (warhol's factory, etc) was fuelled by meth when liquid vials of pharmaceutical grade stuff were still around, and "pep pills" had not yet been entirely stigmatised, and were widely available.
Creativity; manic, spaced-out, drifting into psychosis.

I'll have to give it a listen tomorrow - I'm in a benzo headspace at the moment though, so it'll probably go over my head.

As for Candy, he finished an English degree before descending into his addiction iirc, and it shows. I love the poetry and pieces of his own writing he works in, not to mention the literary quotes he fits in and repurposes. The opening quote for Part II particularly struck me:

"Some of the evil of my tale may have been inherent in our circumstances. For years we lived anyhow with one another in the naked desert, under the indifferent heaven. By day the hot sun fermented us; and we were dizzied by the beating wind. At night we were stained by dew, and shamed into pettiness by the innumerable silences of stars. We were a self-centred army without parade or gesture, devoted to... a purpose so ravenous that it devoured all our strength, a hope so transcendent that our earlier ambitions faded in its glare."

It's amazing how you can take a quote from a book written in 1912 about guerrilla warfare in the Middle East and, nearly a century later, by removing a few words and replacing them with a few ellipses, make it a statement about heroin addiction instead.

There's also an excellent passage about veins as a map of decay, but it's way too long for me to type out from my kindle. I'll figure out a way to open the e-reader file on my computer tomorrow, but for now, ativan and bed are calling.

 

[the_ketaman]

Atm I need help with my ice habit badly. It's crumbling the world around me like heroin never did.

& the benzo thing is spot on. I just tried to get clonazepam or xanax with no luck. Im still trying to stop before my partner realizes i never actually quit. So just now Im having half a point(IV) just to be normal until bedtime and hopefully my boyfriend doesn't notice. Its the comedown that gives it away. I pray this is the last time I suck with this shift.

 

[my innerself]

^^
You just need to slow down Ketaman. You've been hitting it hard for a couple of weeks now. Focus on abstaining for a couple weeks and your head will be much more clearer and you will feel a lot better for it. If you can just stop taking meth for 2 straight weeks I bet you could easily do another 2 weeks on top of that, fuck man just imagine how good you would feel then you can do it mate, a couple of weeks is fuck all.

 

[my innerself]

Go for it

 

[mostly-human]

Atm I need help with my ice habit badly. It's crumbling the world around me like heroin never did.

& the benzo thing is spot on. I just tried to get clonazepam or xanax with no luck. Im still trying to stop before my partner realizes i never actually quit. So just now Im having half a point(IV) just to be normal until bedtime and hopefully my boyfriend doesn't notice. Its the comedown that gives it away. I pray this is the last time I suck with this shift.

"It's crumbling the world around me like heroin never did." - Yeah, I found the same thing with meth addiction; I lost my mind and control of my life in ways that have never happened with heroin. It is supremely destructive (meth). That said, once I kicked meth, I've never really looked back. I can't count the amount of times I've "kicked" smack and then looked back.

Only piece of advice I would give you is not to lie to your boyfriend about it.. Best way, in my opinion at least, to get through any addiction, is to be upfront and honest about the spot you're in with your loved ones (friends, family, partners). It's the lying and sneaking around that fucks your life as much as all the rest. Not to mention, it's really fucking hard to ask for help and to get help when you're pretending you don't have a problem.

Open your heart up, tell those you care about and who care about you. Let people know the pain you're in and ask them for help. If your boyfriend leaves you, then he's left you when you needed him most and I hate to say it, especially without knowing either of you, but maybe that is for the best.

 

[the_ketaman]

Yeah I haven't managed to stop yet ppl keep saying how healthy I look. That's coz I eat, sleep, take vitamins & only do all nighters rarely.

I had a point today & yesterday & once I pay some debts & get more benzos I'm going back for more! I can't slow down. I think detox would help but I've done rehab too many times. I know what I have to do, I just need the willpower.

I keep saying the benzos are to detox from meth but I just end up FUCKED from both plus I'm drinking now which I never did & of course smoke pot.

Something will stop me whether it's health, relationship breakup, jail or willpower so I hope it's the latter

 

[the_ketaman]

the funny thing is, from whom Ive met and spoken to - heroin users are still the ones commiting the more violent crimes (armed robberies, [not so much anymore] hold ups, ect.) due to heavy physical dependency although Ive met more that source their money through victimless drugs such as dealing and doctor shopping..

most meth heads that commit crime just seem to me like a bunch of dumb cunts who couldnt organise doin a runner from your local bottle-o although there are some brazen ones out there that think one step ahead...

quick story; my local supermarket, of which I worked at - just not at the time, got held up at gun-point at the best possible time (end of a public holiday when the tills are being counted with the safe wide open, full of the long weekends profits [think 6 figures) why two heroin addicts and they got away without a single problem and do you know how they were caught? the dumb cunt pinched his misses car while she was in the shower and didnt even bother to cover the plates.. 3 pedestrians got the rego and they kicked the door in within hours.. only got one of the two, bloke lived less than a mile away (I put that stupidity down to the bloke was severally dope-sick and forgot that one minor detail)

other than that, they left no evidence n would have gotten away scot free

That's funny. I know many more meth users that commit crime but your right, they're stupid . H users are often much smatter about their rorts & scams and usually get a lot more out of it. Basically most meth addicts are stupid! Many also do crime for fun because of the nature of the drug

 

[Alice_Chipper]

Why is it, that heroin addicts have program-based ways and means of tapering off their opiate addictions, while long-term stimulant users have no formally endorsed way of doing the same?

[/QUOTE]

Some doctor's will prescribe dexamphetamine as a substitution therapy but they are usually experts in the field & do so without government or UN support.

I recently heard the head of a peak drug body say that substitution therapy is purposely designed to control undesirables & they will not suport any substitution that may cause "pleasure". This was their response to why dexamphetamine isn't being used to help people. They only endorsed antidepressants given that the pharmaceutical compamies cant make a product like opiate substitution theory which removes the feel good feelings the high ups seem to despise.

If you are interested in trying dexamphetamine do some research into doctor's first. Some will help.

 

[Alice_Chipper]

That's funny. I know many more meth users that commit crime but your right, they're stupid . H users are often much smatter about their rorts & scams and usually get a lot more out of it. Basically most meth addicts are stupid! Many also do crime for fun because of the nature of the drug

Please do not reinforce the stigmatision and marginalisation of people by using a generalised "stupid" stereotype that can be easily picked apart in critical analysis.

 

[Crankinit]

Some doctor's will prescribe dexamphetamine as a substitution therapy but they are usually experts in the field & do so without government or UN support.

I recently heard the head of a peak drug body say that substitution therapy is purposely designed to control undesirables & they will not suport any substitution that may cause "pleasure". This was their response to why dexamphetamine isn't being used to help people. They only endorsed antidepressants given that the pharmaceutical compamies cant make a product like opiate substitution theory which removes the feel good feelings the high ups seem to despise.

If you are interested in trying dexamphetamine do some research into doctor's first. Some will help.

To be fair, there have been experiments, but I don't believe any of them yielded particularly positive results. I know at least one AUDD poster who participated in a modafinil trial for meth addiction.

Problem is there are a lot of differences between amphetamines and opioids. For starters, opioid maintenance, at the least, makes using your DOC on top of the maintenance a real inconvenience, any hypothetical amphetamine maintenance program wouldn't do so, meaning amphetamine users would be able to sign up and use the program as a source of free amphetamine to complement their use of meth.

There's the question of dosing - if you use the opioid model of dosing in the morning at the pharmacy, then the individual would come down off their dose 5 or 6 hours into the day. Do they come in 3 times a day? Even XR amphetamine formulations, I believe, don't last for 16 hours. If you could make one that did, is it going to interfere with sleep? Is the patient going to suffer a daily comedown? Then there's the question of how you balance the dose to keep the individual functional without inducing or worsening the symptoms of amphetamine addiction.

There's the health question - the worst someone on OMT suffers is some hormone imbalances which can be treated and taking 15 minutes to piss, whereas even pharm grade amphetamines put a strain on the cardiovascular system, the brain, the kidneys, among others.

Do you give the patients takeaway doses? Those doses would have a much higher street value/demand than suboxone or methadone do. Suboxone and methadone are only really in demand amongst junkies who aren't in a program but want something on hand for when the worst happens. On the other hand dexamphetamine is in more demand than ever now that Aussie Uni students have caught onto it's study enhancement abilities.

Likewise with the takeaways - binging for days and missing sleep is a huge component of meth addiction, how many people in a maintenance program are going to actually suck up the nightly crash and go to sleep, instead of getting stuck into their next few day's worth of doses. Sleep meds could be prescribed to help (of course those create their own problems), but the patient still has to want to sleep.

These are all questions that would have to be answered. The more thought I put into it, the more problems I see with it. I'd love to see a viable model for amphetamine maintenance as much as anyone on bluelight. They didn't just arbitrarily decide to create a program for opiates but not amphetamines - there just hasn't been anyone able to present a viable model which would stabilizes the patient and eventually lead to lifestyle changes and weaning off the drug, instead of worsening and prolonging the problem.

 

[Alice_Chipper]

To be fair, there have been experiments, but I don't believe any of them yielded particularly positive results.

First up, please be mindful using the term "junkies". To me, this word is derogatory and hurtful even if not intended to be so

The issues re: dosing, takeaways etc is an obsession of replacement programs as there is a strong assumption people who use drugs are deviant & need control over help. Some people do sell their doses, but this is minimal & blown out of proportion. (I recently read a study into the creation of opiate replacement therapy & it was appauling to see the views of "users" as deviants not to trust & the biomedical justification for control.)

There are success stories of people using dex. They were given a monthly supply & managed it themselves.... and all without selling it to one student! Most people do the right thing. They took a dose in the morning & slept at night.... and freed themselves from a costly dependency.

And in these cases it wasn't prescribed to just anyone who walked into a doctor's office off the street. They had long histories working together. I got prescribed suboxone by a doctor I just met who had no idea what my history was but immidiately wrote a script when it wasnt necessary. Like you, I do not think this should happen and see it as problematic.

 

[Crankinit]

First up, please be mindful using the term "junkies". To me, this word is derogatory and hurtful even if not intended to be so

I have no problem calling my myself a junkie, and while I can see how the term could be harmful in the context of broader use, I don't think it's a big issue here. We're all big boys and big girls on bluelight. But if it bothers you, I'll stop.

The issues re: dosing, takeaways etc is an obsession of replacement programs as there is a strong assumption people who use drugs are deviant & need control over help. Some people do sell their doses, but this is minimal & blown out of proportion. (I recently read a study into the creation of opiate replacement therapy & it was appauling to see the views of "users" as deviants not to trust & the biomedical justification for control.)

Unfortunately, that's the way it is. It's the nature of addiction, if someone had perfect self control when it came to drug use, they wouldn't be in the position of considering a maintenance program in the first place. I agree that the attitude of distaste towards addicts among the medical and scientific communities is counter-productive and inhumane, but we also have to deal with the reality, which is that use of the DOC and/or diversion is common on opioid maintenance (I'm speaking from very personal experience here). There's no reason to assume that it would be any less amongst an amphetamine programs, and strong reasons to suggest that it would be even worse based on the nature of the drug itself and rising demand for pharmaceutical amphetamine.

There are success stories of people using dex. They were given a monthly supply & managed it themselves.... and all without selling it to one student! Most people do the right thing. They took a dose in the morning & slept at night.... and freed themselves from a costly dependency.

.

I'm sure you're right, that there are a few people out there who've been prescribed dexamphetamine by a trusting doctor, who've used that dexamphetamine to wean themselves off meth, who haven't diverted it, or binged on it, but given the nature of amphetamine as a drug and the nature of addiction as a condition, it isn't reasonable to assume that those people would be in the majority if a broader program was instituted.

And in these cases it wasn't prescribed to just anyone who walked into a doctor's office off the street. They had long histories working together.

Unfortunately, most addicts don't have doctors they have long histories of working with who are willing to go out on a limb and experiment with maintenance programs. I was actually one of the lucky ones in that regard, my doctor, who I'd always been open with about my drug use, convinced me to try suboxone and went and did what she needed to do to be able to prescribe it to me (the actual tale is a little more complicated, but not really relevant).

Even then, in a fairly ideal situation, an understanding and trusting doctor, weekly therapy, no urine tests, etc, it still took me a year to get to the point where I wasn't constantly skipping my suboxone dose to get high for a few days at a time. The reality is that I just wasn't able to avoid it, even with the significant barriers and effort I had to go through to do so. The underlying issues that caused me to turn to opiates were still there, and suboxone wasn't enough to deal with them. Of course amphetamine is much closer to meth than bupe is to oxy, so the examples aren't necessarily 100% comparable, but due to the removal of those barriers I mentioned when it comes to amphetamine (as d-amp doesn't block d-meth the way bupe blocks oxy and morphine), I suspect that unless you're prescribing enough d-amp that you've basically just sub-siding a replacement addiction for them (which might have some HR benefit a la Switzerland and heroin, but would be a whole other discussion all together), you're going to have a lot of people who keep going on top because the underlying issues haven't been addressed.

I got prescribed suboxone by a doctor I just met who had no idea what my history was but immidiately wrote a script when it wasnt necessary. Like you, I do not think this should happen and see it as problematic.

I agree that stuff like this shouldn't happen, which is why I hate the maintenance clinics and refuse to ever attend one. They're dehumanizing businesses, working to make a profit with absolutely no care for the best interest of the patient.

As for amphetamine maintenance, I agree that it can work in those kinds of specialized cases you described, but if we're talking about a broader, institutionalized program, then those questions in my previous post need to be answered.

 

[RedRum OG]

I do think there needs to be some sort of option for meth addicts however. I just don't think amphetamines would be good to replace with more amphetamines, just as more coke would not be good to wean off a coke head.

I think opiates are more easily controlled with maintenance/taper than amps. I hate to comment without ever having done meth, only opiates, but here goes my heavy handed attempt

1) As said before, amphetamines don't just bring you to baseline and you feel "well" like opiates
2) Amps continue to do damage every time you use them
3) It is easy to sleep through a good chunk of amp WD's, Opiate withdrawals are painfully long lasting without a moment respite, for days or weeks on end. Opiate witdrawals can be incredibly intense and there is no escape. Puking, diarrhea, sweating, kicking, unable to sit still or rest, panic... I've been through mild cocaine WD (yes i know, pales in comparison to meth, but I know the general feeling at least)
4) suboxone will not get a REAL addict high. No matter the amount. If you have a teeny baby habit, sure. Methadone will I suppose, but not unless you go above the normal dose. With amps, there's going to be an 'up' and 'down' no matter what.
5) suboxone and methadone stop you from using other opiates. Not completely, but they make it so frustrating, expensive, and non-euphoric it's not fun. Also, with suboxone, you have to carefully navigate precip WD if you have a slip up, which is the worst thing in the opiate world, and there really isn't any similar drug around for amps.

I am not trying to belittle meth WD or the habit in general. I have heard how horrible, painful, and soul-snatching it can be. I just think in some ways it is greatly different from opiate habits.

Get off my arse? I earn more in a month than you do in a year....You need legitimate treatment? Im glad you got it, because now i can lap up my success whilst grinning ear to ear knowing you battle with addiction everyday. That makes me happy.

There is no reason to get like this. No addict is better than another, we all have faults, and have done the same stupid things. Making more money does not equal being superior in any way, shape, or form. Try to be more sympathetic, we all come here for help and advice.

Im not asking for sympathy..... you've inferred im addicted, i binged, etc etc without even meeting me. Are you a clairvoyant?..... Sounds like you have really good aspirations to succeed in life. Your a leech sucking the life out of society and i cringe knowing that my tax dollars go to your dole bludging crippled arse.

From another thread....

Having abused Xanax on and off for the past 5 years, and having used it heavily over the past 2, However i can say that it is a living fucking hell. It nearly destroyed me.

I love it so much when im on it, hence why im still fighting the addiction. Haven't had any for abut 4 months but the cravings haven't eased a bit. Unfortunately the only reason i haven't had any is because i can't get them at the moment, not because i've got the willpower to say no.

 

[Crankinit]

Methadone will I suppose, but not unless you go above the normal dose.

Methadone is also significantly less euphoric than most opiates (oxy, H, morphine, hydromorphone, even codeine, etc). Don't get me wrong, it's better than nothing, I've IV'd methadone and I had a nice day, but it doesn't really compare. Likewise with suboxone.

A lot of methadone patients are also on massive doses (80 - 120mg), which is the point at which it kinda caps out and, from my understand, stops giving much extra effect even if they drink their next takeaway. I imagine the clinics ramp them up to these high doses intentionally to raise their tolerance and allow massive amounts of the drug to accumulate in their system, making it impossible to skip doses and get high. Not to mention it traps them, since they're looking at months and months to taper.

And like you said, with amphetamines, you're gonna go up, then you're gonna go down. There's no way to truly stabilize it, whereas on opiate maintenance, done properly, the only fluctuation is a nice mood boost for 30 - 60 minutes when your dose kicks in.

 

[Alice_Chipper]

I have no problem calling my myself a junkie, and while I can see how the term could be harmful in the context of broader use, I don't think it's a big issue here. We're all big boys and big girls on bluelight. But if it bothers you, I'll stop.

It was not always an issue for me (having referred to myself as a junkie previously) until I started working in a needle exchange & saw how the public used that word with such venom... "die junkie scum" even got grafittied everywhere around my workplace. I just ask out of a respect for the dignity of those who it does hurt. (I guess I stick to my ethics even when it doesn't matter).

Interesting post. Yep, I know that control functions as the reality but I wish the program met people where they are at. So what if people are still using? Like you, I did not stop using after starting suboxone as it was not a simplistic biomedical cause that made me use. I did not have a good doctor like yourself & when I asked questions he treated me like a troublemaker who didn't need to know any answers. I think the stigma for meth users is now even greater than it is for heroin users so I do not see dexamphetamine being prescribed therapeutically for those in a similar situation to myself.

I stopped using over a year ago and I did this through a considered personal analysis. Suboxone was not my solution. For those I know on dexamphetamine, they were ready to stop using too. Unless you have a positive ongoing trust with a prescriber, I am not sure others will get the same chance.

 

[pisspotnrock]

It was not always an issue for me (having referred to myself as a junkie previously) until I started working in a needle exchange & saw how the public used that word with such venom... "die junkie scum" even got grafittied everywhere around my workplace. I just ask out of a respect for the dignity of those who it does hurt. (I guess I stick to my ethics even when it doesn't matter).

its shit like that, that makes me loose all hope in the stigma ever dissipating....

 

[lovepsychadelics]

Only the meth does baby, only the meth...