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Sinning, as Jesus and the church say, is good. Turn or burn Christians.

Gnostic Bishop

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Sinning, as Jesus and the church say, is good. Turn or burn Christians.

Protestants through Martin Luther agree.
“Be a sinner and sin strongly, but more strongly have faith and rejoice in Christ.” Martin Luther

Christians and Catholics agree and sing of sin being a happy fault, due to keeping Yahweh’s Great Plan on track.

The Eden myth agrees as it has Yahweh insuring sin by putting the talking serpent into Eden, --- possessed by Satan, --- and giving her a role.

The sex of the talking serpent is not known, --- as far as I know, --- but she is likely female.

Females were always vilified in scriptures. Even to making Jesus’ wife a loose woman.

Women are the archetypal source of evil for man; and deserves it. Happily. They are the evolutionary prize.

Not for sin, of course. That is mostly man’s fault, thanks to testosterone.

Men are forced to compete for women and those competitions are the source of all human to human evil.

The problem of evil is puny as compared to the greater good of our continuing existence.

Gnostic Christians were known as the only good Christians. This, of course, given that my old Jesus mind has created my Christ consciousness, --- thanks to Gnosis, --- I know this to have some merit, but cannot personally take that label. It must be recognized.

One cannot acclaim oneself legitimately.

I can claim to be a great sinner, because you have to be to have a Christ consciousness. I have sinned in my mind and that is as good as doing evil, said Jesus.

Given my old Jesus consciousness, that is morphing into my Christ consciousness, --- through sinning greatly, --- I would invite all believers to do so, so as to get closer to god.

I did not check the Qu’ran, but like the other Abrahamic religions, it too likely has Allah thinking sin is a really happy fault and great part of God’s Great Plan.

The mentally Catholic/Christian/Torah part of me, has to agree with how Yahweh, although I hate to give that genocidal ^^&*&^&* any credit for anything the mythicists put into his vile demiurge mouth.

The term Demiurge was likely invented by the more polite Gnostics. I like my modern interpretation. Plain evil.

I had to modernize it so that the literalists would perhaps take note and reduce his status; at least to below Jesus and Hitler. Mind you, literalists would have Jesus do Armageddon. Yuk.

As men compete and create most of the human to human evil in the world, a necessary evil, let us all pray that those that have shown themselves to be the fittest oligarchs, remember how generous they have been in the past and personally, I would like to see them compete in their philanthropy, that has already greatly improved our socio economic progress.

Are the Abrahamic religions correct in their view of sin being good?

I think they are but should work a lot harder at teaching Abrahamists what that means, so as to check their turn or burn unreligious views.

It is Christians who must turn from their vile god, or burn, not the other way around as Christians claim.

Regards
DL
 
I'm all for freedom of speech, but you make 30 threads every day essentially stating the same thing, worded differently. You're not going to find to many people who disagree with you regarding the Abrahamic faiths on here so maybe go to some Christian apologetics website if your seeking a debate over the topic.
 
I'm all for freedom of speech, but you make 30 threads every day essentially stating the same thing, worded differently. You're not going to find to many people who disagree with you regarding the Abrahamic faiths on here so maybe go to some Christian apologetics website if your seeking a debate over the topic.

There are no sites where Christians do any decent apologetics. They want to indoctrinate and not learn by losing an honest debate.

Prove me wrong and find even one.

Regards
DL
 
still pissed at God brah?

Insert gays and women harmed by homophobic and misogynous religions to this quote. You should get an idea of what you should be doing with the homophobic and misogynous mainstream religions if you live by the golden rule.

Please get back to me with your conclusion.

Martin Niemöller
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Regards
DL
 
Good morning.

Please do NOT take this as a criticism of your post or your beliefs. And believe it or not: this is yet another topic that I feel very strongly about i.e. it's not like most of my other posts (when I'm not doing "substance research") where I'm just taking the piss or trying to get a rise out of somebody that's rubbed me up the wrong way.

Take it also from me that I was raised in an extremely religious family and have read the bible cover to cover many times, albeit under duress, when was I young. What young boy wants to have to attend church every Sunday and then be almost forced to have to go to bible study on certain other days or evenings. Not that I was anti religions or anything. Just at that age you have more interesting things to do is all. But the rub is: only now at age 55 (started last year at 54) do I realize the absolute power of indoctrination whether it be by parents or church ministers or peers etc. As an example of this: people cannot understand to this day why the Hitler Youth followed Nazi Party doctrine and Hitler blindly and with fervor (and this is also NOT meant to cause consternation given the latest series of posts on the subject). The reason: Hitler was an absolute MASTER at indoctrination. Same could be said for North Korea. And the list could go on as I'm sure you're well aware. Point is: for all of my life I've had this "monkey on my back" that if I "do wrong" then I'm going to get "punished" in the afterlife. And if I do "good" then I'm going to be "rewarded". And I never questioned this until something really really bad happened to me last year in September. I then went of this quest: mainly to see if I could find out about and make sense of this "afterlife" and what it was (supposedly) about and what would happen after I'm gone e.g. would I be reunited with one or two who had passed on (or at very least see them again). Point is that after all of these years: for the very first time I started trying to look at ALL opinions and differences of opinion on the topic of religion and the afterlife and sinning and the rest. And believe me when I tell you that I really would like nothing more for there to be an afterlife as had been drummed into my head all those years. But when you start opening your mind and going down various rabbit holes and in an effort to give religion vs. atheism an equal shake: only then do you start seeing the light (no pun intended). I'm just mentioning the above as it is important to understand my background before going further with this.

Now to the point(s):

In order for you to make your statement: you have to make an assumption the the bible and and other religious scriptures or documents are true and not just a collection or a series of folklore writings bound together in a single book or scroll by some or the other king or faith. You also have to make the assumption that if such are true (in the religious or spiritual sense) that such were correctly translated from their original texts into whatever language you find yourself reading the same.

Well after all the time I've put into this: I've some to the conclusion that either all religious texts are indeed just fables or a collection of folklore, put together by uneducated (although educated for their time and place) OR the way in which they, and and ANY religion, has been sorely erroneously taught and misinterpreted over the years or, worse still, been used by various religions to control their believers and followers. This is my opinion based on all that I have managed to squeeze in over the last year and believe me I've had the time on my hands and very valid reasons for giving both theism and atheism and equal and fair punt and have tried to leave my "conditioning" out of the picture in order to arrive at an intelligent and unbiased view of both and which I can tell you that if you're serious about this: that's not an easy thing to do. It took me a while to stop feeling uncomfortable while watching and listening to and reading material by atheists or agnostics or apologetics alike. But the deeper down these rabbit holes I've gone: the more logical sense they make. And what I've found (not just from study but also from having discussions with various religious people including ministers or men of the cloth): the very moment you question something their only answer is "have faith" or "everything is a test of faith". That's the standard and universal answer when they're unable to logically explain a certain event or series of events. Well it's just not good enough for me anymore. Given the advances in science and technology and dare I even say human intelligence (not to mention advances in other spheres e.g. archeology, anthropology, forensics, etc.) I'm afraid to say that my indoctrination and "fear" are no more (although truth be told: there's still always a niggly naggly doubt somewhere inside me and that's based on nothing other than said indoctrination). There are just too many things that I was taught in my formative years that no longer add up for me on the religious side of things.

It's obvious to me that possibly only one person on this thread has bothered to take the time to watch that video that I posted above. If you're really serious about this topic (an not just simply posting on this thread in order to take the piss with @Gnostic Bishop and anybody else that may to a greater or lesser degree be in agreement with his own beliefs) then I urge, actually beg, you to just take an hour to watch that video and then return here to intelligently and seriously debate the content LIKE GENTLEMEN AND LADIES i.e. without animosity or trying to force one type of belief onto a another. There are DOZENS of other videos and university lectures available on YouTube on these topics. As I noted: this particular video is too the point and not quite as long and drawn out as most (very few will have the intestinal fortitude to sit through a three hour lecture by some professor or the other at a university or the likes of Christopher Hitchens or Sam Harris or some of the debates).

But as I've noted above: at first a religious person will find a lot of this stuff uncomfortable (and probably even have a feeling of guilt for willingly inviting these alternate views, albeit that they are based on logic and scientific principles, and by extremely intelligent and qualified and well read and studied men). But give it a shot anyway. You have nothing to lose and maybe we can indeed have a civil debate about all of this. Furthermore: if your religious faith is REALLY strong well then it doesn't matter WHAT they say then NOTHING will sway you in another direction anyway so nothing lost personally.

Don't get me wrong: although I've spent a LOT of time on this I STILL have questions for which I've not found answers. But I have FAR FEWER questions now than I used to have on the subject of religion and belief and scripture.

And if the truth be told: I'm really kind of sad at that which I now believe to be true. Point I'm trying to make is that I did not go out of my way, nor am I going out of my way, to sway other people one way or the other. I'm merely trying to provide a different perspective on things that some may not have thought of. And you're quite entitled, obviously, to retain your blind faith and beliefs and carry on living the way you deem fit for you. Just trying to maybe get other input based on "something" and possibly just open some minds so that they too can arrive at their own conclusions and make their own choices but based on some additional and alternate information that we are now privy to and that we were not privy to centuries or millenia ago.

And also note that these men, Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, and Daniel Dennett (who have been referred to as "The Four Horsemen" and to anybody familiar with the book of Revelations you know the origins and meaning of such slur) are not out to force their ideas or change people's beliefs. They are merely providing logical and scientific arguments AGAINST various religious doctrine and the harm that a lot of such doctrine has been the cause of and continues to do such harm to this very day. It is for the religious to "prove" that they're wrong. And thus far: the only "proof" I've found being provided always just comes down to "have faith". That's not proof of anything.

As I've noted: some of this stuff will make a christian (or member of any other faith for that matter) rather uncomfortable at first. Keep and open mind. If their arguments change nothing for you: well then no harm done and continue are you are. But from my point of view: their points made are valid and the scientific principles presented are irrefutable.

In closing and with reference to the specific quote above that states that nowhere is it stated that "sinning is good". But if you read some of the books of the old testament in the bible then you have to seriously question what the word "sinning" actually means and why certain commandments were made and expected to be adhered to and obeyed but when adhered to obeyed did result in the massacre and enslavement of hundreds of thousands of people, if not millions, but because it may have been a commandment from God on high then it was not considered sinful while at the same time having a commandment stating "though shalt not kill".

And please understand that I'm no religious fanatic nor have I ever been (quite the opposite to be honest). And I'm not trying to force my NOW beliefs on others. Just hoping we could have a debate on these topics.

I've been pretty agnostic for most of my life. It's really only been recently that I've taken major interest in spiritualism and God, in an effort to find some bit of inner contentment. I've dealt with a bunch of trauma and bs from day one so I've struggled mightily with mental illness and substance use. So I'm certainly not an expert on theology, but I have always kept an open mind towards peoples beliefs.

In addition to the Christian scripture I've been reading, I've been reading Hinduism, Buddhism, and Taoism (chapter 20 of the Tao Te Ching is my favorite). Also I've just been learning a lot about the relationship between Hebrew's and Christian's and how they differ and the history of religion.

For me, if a verse or a parable from religious scripture brings me peace inside, it is valuable. If praying, or wearing crosses relieves my anxiety, I will do it. And for whatever reason recently, having some "faith" in either salvation, enlightenment, or nirvana has been keeping me going recently. I've felt damned my entire life. I want to leave that behind. I'm certainly not ordained.

Religion is definitely a matter of old cultures forming ways of understanding the world and forming moral codes, ingraining them into their children and passing them down through generations. I am more interested in the value + wisdom found in these beliefs than I am in any organized congregation or overarching law. There has certainly been much evil done in the name of "GOD" and religious beliefs as well, with that I of course agree.

I used to demand proof, but more and more I feel there is more to the universe than what our human minds can really grasp. It's just too vast.

I appreciate your post though dalpat, and really I just wanted to throw in and talk about these things as well.
 
I've been reading the bible and the scriptures a bunch recently, and I'm not sure it says anywhere that sinning is "good". It's kinda universally disliked by The Lord. We as humans can't avoid sinning, but it can always be forgiven.

Who has the first right and ability to forgive?

Only the victim has any real right or ability to forgive. They bring the charge.

To see god as a victim who can be hurt by what he has himself created to happen, seems to set a low bar for a god. Making a victimized god a judge may not be a good idea.

Regards
DL
 
Just hoping we could have a debate on these topics.

To Moses believing Christians, the law is everything.

Without sin, there is no law. Jesus believed in the law based on the Golden Rule.

adam, meaning a tribe/society, is what should decide the laws to live by, given that we invent our gods. See the Jewish Divine Council.

Not some imaginary mental construct or god, posited as real, by some con man selling faith and mythos to fools who should be embracing logos like the Chrestian Jesus did before Christianity plagiarized him and usurped him and his scriptures, changing him from natural to supernatural.

A full corruption of the Jewish take.

Focus on morality and I can show a better one in most cases than Christianity and the other supernatural god religions.

That is not a hard task to a moral mind.

Regards
DL
 
My argument is that we don't (or at least I don't) need faith in religion to have ethics. I realize that some may not sit around and think about this to try to formulate internal spiritual or ethical dialog and establish their own belief system, so maybe they look to religion to give them a behavioral code. Still, this doesn't make it correct and it seems lazy

Somebody can have a good-heart and still be a terrible person
 
Unfortunately I am having a REAL hard time of making sense of @Gnostic Bishop's posts. Sorry good sir. It's not for want of trying to make sense of them.

I am a poor writer.

Given my poor memory, I follow logic trails.

It all makes sense if you are following the trail.

If derailed, just ask.

If your thinking makes sense against mine, I win big, in the sense of learning something new. One of my purposes in being here.

Be generous and kick my mental butt hard. Scriptures say that that is a good show of love.

Regards
DL
 
Just cleaned some other house members pubes from the drain before taking a shower. I myself have naturally self rejuvenating non-shedding pubes, I think I get that from my Mom or Dad, I can't remember. Come to think of it discussions about family genetics with my adult siblings haven't been so smooth lately either. What does scripture say about shared DNA I wonder?
 
Before the Flood, it was acceptable for siblings to breed and anything closer, i.e parents and children was incestuous and did happen with a father sleeping with his daughters, but aunt/nephew and uncle/niece breeding happened too and I don't think that was illegal; just breeding between parents and their offspring

After the Flood it was half-siblings and anything further removed. I don't know when the law changed to make any type of sibling breeding illegal and I'm going by memory here so I may have skipped something important

Edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lot's_daughters
 
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Actually I thought I'd just add to your wonderful post and my response.

We're probably coming at this from two different angles. My interest in all of this is what comes after. Not what it could do for me now. Just saying i.e. this may just make more sense should we be fortunate to be able to debate this all further.

Yeah, as far as what comes after, I don't think there's ever gonna be a way for us to really learn. There's also no way to disprove any of it either. I believe one of the fundamental flaws that many individuals of various religions fall into is, focusing solely on the afterlife, at the expense of material reality. Ie: As long as they follow their faith (or however they interpret it), then this is temporary anyway and "why should I bother to help my community".

People should be able to practice basic morals without a religious code, but I believe religions can also be a way to broaden your moral compass or understanding of the world.

But you might be right, good chat either way
 
I don't know that people actually have morals. I'm not saying they don't but I'd be surprised if there were people who did. Of course plenty of us have values, but morality is something that has to do with traditions and history which I can't see thriving in a modern context
 
I don't know that people actually have morals. I'm not saying they don't but I'd be surprised if there were people who did. Of course plenty of us have values, but morality is something that has to do with traditions and history which I can't see thriving in a modern context

I'm curious where you've got that bit about morals being mainly about tradition or history... From what I understand the Oxford dictionary definition of morals is simply

"a person's standards of behavior or beliefs concerning what is and is not acceptable for them to do"
 
I mean, I think people behave based on intuition and they tend to have a set of values they use to judge various situations, maybe themselves at times. But morality is deeper and involves things a person may not even really have knowledge of in real terms yet still maintains a belief in
 
HOW did this all get started in the first place?

Nature, obviously?

I understand the situation. I fail to see the problem.

We are tribal by nature and all a religion is is a tribe.

Things are as they are because we are instinct driven to compete to show our fitness. We use our tribes to war so much due to that instinctual penchant.

It is demonstrable that we live in the best of all possible worlds, given our history. Try to see it.
---------

Let me speak to the lie of Gnostic Christians hating matter.

I wrote this to refute the false notion that Gnostic Christians do not like matter and reality that the inquisitors propagated to justify their many murders of my religions originators. It shows that Christians should actually hate matter and not Gnostic Christians.

The Christian reality.
1 John 2:15Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Gen 3; 17 Thou shalt not eat of it; cursed is the ground for thy sake; in toil shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life.

----------
The Gnostic Christian reality.
Gnostic Christian Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all.

[And after they have reigned they will rest.]"
"If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.
If they say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you.
Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you.
[Those who] become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father.
But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

As you can see from that quote, if we see God's kingdom all around us and inside of us, we cannot think that the world is anything but evolving perfection. Most just don't see it and live in poverty. Let me try to make you see the world the way I do.

Here is a mind exercise. Tell me what you see when you look around. The best that can possibly be, given our past history, or an ugly and imperfect world?

Candide.
"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.”

That means that we live in the best of all possible worlds, because it is the only possible world, given all the conditions at hand and the history that got us here. That is an irrefutable statement given entropy and the anthropic principle.

Regards
DL
 
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