Sinning, as Jesus and the church say, is good. Turn or burn Christians.

[Gnostic Bishop]

I don't know what gnosis is. I just meant that one can let go of what others practise (rather than believe by default) while remaining wise to what's important

You have the makings of an esoteric ecumenist. Good.



Regards
DL

 

[deficiT]

@dalpat077 Yeah, again for me, it's an individual thing. I don't belong to a church, although I'd probably consider myself a Baptist, I'm still open to upgrading my interpretation when presented with something new. It's easier for me to believe. I used to be agnostic/athiest, but there's just nothing in that "philosophy" that is spiritually fulfilling by any means, and I felt empty inside for most of my life. Atheism is all about fighting back against something, as opposed to building anything. These days, spirituality is like an armor for me, and I have relieved myself of a lot of the fears and insecurities I used to grapple with.

As far as tragedies/murders/etc. and natural disasters are concerned, I believe that people that are victim to them either have immortal life through Christ or are reincarnated, ie. Buddhism, Hinduism. In which case, it is only tragedy on this Earth, as this life is temporary. I don't really believe in hell. Just because you can't touch something, doesn't make it any less real. When I read scripture most recently, I truly felt something righteous inside myself, and had a spiritual awakening. Is that the Holy Spirit working inside me? Of course I can't "prove" what I feel to you, but I believe it what I feel. Not everyone has this spiritual experience in their life, and that's ok. No one can be forced to believe anything, and I know this for sure because I tried to believe many times before in my life, but it took a certain series of events for it to click inside me.

@Gnostic Bishop And in regard to Jesus's claim about divorce, he merely said it was considered adultery, unless someone had been unfaithful. Adultery is a sin. Jesus died for our sins to be forgiven and to make a new covenant between God and the entire world, so it would just be a matter of repenting. HIs words on the two most important commandments are: have faith, love your neighbor. My biggest beef w/ the NT is how much credibility is given to the Apostle Paul and the early church. I believe they failed to interpret Jesus's word right from the get, hence bigots popping open 1 Corinthians to preach about "Christian morality". That's BS to me. I much prefer the minor epistles, in particular the Book of James is one of my favorite pieces of writing of any genre.

God does seem like a genocidal maniac in the Hebrew bible, but if one were to take the scriptures as fact, we were made by God and wouldn't have life without him anyway. As we were made in God's image, I look at it like he holds regrets like anyone else, hence the New Testament to make up for it.

Idk, it's a simple philosophy for me. It's a lot easier for me to "let go, and let God', as they say in AA. All I know is that I don't know.

 

[Gormur]

Atheism is all about fighting back against something, as opposed to building anything.

I'm an atheist since I don't practise religion. I guess more emphatically you could say I don't believe in religion. Same thing. I like to read about and appreciate religions but I'll never belong to one and that's all right too

 

[Deru]

I'm an atheist since I don't practise religion. I guess more emphatically you could say I don't believe in religion. Same thing. I like to read about and appreciate religions but I'll never belong to one and that's all right too

I'm similar to you, so the question I pose to you, then, is what do you subscribe to in terms of faith, a higher power (doesn't need to be mythical -- i.e. god or a religion -- or anything to provide internal purpose? Mainly just curious, as I myself have struggled heavily with it in the past and it became very depressing to me.

 

[Deru]

What is your lens, and why?

What use is a religion that is inherently immoral?

Evolution, in this case specifically, a social construct to govern human behavior and the advancement of our species.

Survival is not immoral, this Earth would be a pretty brutal place to survive for homo sapiens otherwise.

Immoral is a subjective term relative to individuals or groups of individuals and the idiosyncrasies within homo sapiens' social constructs.

 

[Gormur]

I'm similar to you, so the question I pose to you, then, is what do you subscribe to in terms of faith, a higher power (doesn't need to be mythical -- i.e. god or a religion -- or anything to provide internal purpose? Mainly just curious, as I myself have struggled heavily with it in the past and it became very depressing to me.

I have visions and make goals to recreate them

 

[Deru]

I'm not questioning the authenticity of scripture in the historical sense

I think this is true, to a point. It would be flawed, just as all historical accounts typically are, influenced by bias and interpretation of the imperfect human beings who wrote it.

But there are definitely objective facts in there, as well and it's without a doubt interesting to read it for that alone and understand how the system developed.

 

[deficiT]

I'm an atheist since I don't practise religion. I guess more emphatically you could say I don't believe in religion. Same thing. I like to read about and appreciate religions but I'll never belong to one and that's all right too

That's fair. When I think atheism, I think Richard Dawkins type people that are all about criticizing religion and it's their entire belief system.

What you said about yourself my first thought was agnostic, but atheist works too since you said you know you'll never believe.

I considered myself agnostic for most of my life.

 

[deficiT]

Hello.

This is a TRULY wonderful post. And definitely food for thought on my part. And for sure it's going to get a good few re-reads on my side.

Look. As I know I've noted before: my interest in this really is "what comes after" (if anything) (and I have my personal reasons obviously). Frankly and as far as religion in and of itself is concerned: if it any way improves your life or brings you peace or give you meaning then it's the way to go. I'd even go so far as to say that God or no: had I conducted my life according to the way I was brought up there is absolutely NO doubt in my mind that I'd not be sitting where I am today. In other words: afterlife or not things would have turned out WAY better for me than they have. I believe there's a message in there somewhere (for somebody or anybody that reads this). For damn sure (and at very least) I wouldn't have written off so many cars while under the influence and for sure would have avoided quite a few arguments and fights in my life! Lol! This all being said (and I'll never have the answer to this question): would I have been HAPPY in life? In other words: given the things that I've enjoyed and the things that have "made me me" (hope that makes sense) (most all of which having only been possible by breaking every commandment in the book just about) (short of murder by my calculations) (and the way things are going I wouldn't count on that not being a possibility! Lol!) would I have been HAPPY? Had I stuck with my religious upbringing: there's no doubt in my mind I'd be sitting here today with a paid roof over my head, money in the bank, money for retirement, the "white picket fence" type scenario. Given where I'm at and have arrived at: the obvious answer would be to say "hell yeah: I'd rather have that than the life I've enjoyed". But I doubt (like I said: I'll never have the answer i.e. far too late now) I'd be HAPPY even although I'm a fucking misery right now (ask my girlfriend if you don't believe me i.e. I'm reminded of just what a miserable piece of shit I've become on an almost daily basis right now! Lol!). Sad part: she's right! Lol! Anyway: I guess my point REALLY is that if religion and religious beliefs betters your life and give it meaning then you go for it like anything and don't let anybody get in your way.

There's a lot of posts here since my last one and I'm not going to quote each one as that could take DAYS. But I've seen mention of Richard Dawkins & Co. Now while I respect these gentlemen greatly and, as noted, am highly influenced by them nowadays because they do make sense to me: I do draw the line at bashing religion and religious beliefs for the sake of it or for the sake of making a career out of it and making a name for yourself. I'm not saying that's what any of them are doing (although there are one or two lectures etc. that could quite easily allow one to think that maybe that's the gist of what they're doing). I think the two most important things that I get from them is a) there are at least logical and scientific principles and facts on which their beliefs (or lack thereof) are based (and this because I just have that kind of mind i.e. my brain doesn't allow me to accept things for which there is no logical explanation) and b) that religion can be (let's forget about the past and the Roman's and whatever or whoever else) harmful to others (although I'd add the caveat being is that if it is ENFORCED or FORCED on others).

There's also a post above somewhere where somehow I was quoted and the reply referenced "woman" etc. I have NO idea the relevance of that post to any of my posts here. Must admit that kinda shocked me to see that (but I'm not going to make a big deal out of it i.e. could be a translation or misinterpretation problem).

Anyway. Thanks again for your post. Refreshing, and honest, to say the least. Thank you.

Yeah, there is absolutely some stuff in the bible that is counter productive, sexist, old school bullshit. But I try and follow the philosophy of "take what you need, and leave the rest" - which is kind of another AA jargon saying.

And I agree that organized religion has caused a lot of harm, which is why I subscribe more to the philosophy of the Baptists, in which there in no adherence to any large religious body and local churches are autonomous, it is all just the scripture and how you interpret it. They also believe in "soul competency" in which it is believed that every individual has the power to seek spirituality (as opposed to the idea of predestination, ie. everything has already been planned out by God). As well, I appreciate the idea of "believer's baptism", as opposed to being baptized at birth. Baptism only means something if you've decided that you believe, and you go into it willingly.

But there are a lot of "believers" out there, that have a false interpretation of scripture and use it to oppress others, and these type of folks should be condemned at all opportunity.

 

[Gormur]

I never understood interpreting (optional quotation marks) scripture and I've read the original languages the Bible was written in. I guess it's a way to say that one is getting outside information on what a text means. Why somebody believes that is their prerogative; you know, one church has their interpretation and so forth

Predestination is Calvinism, not that I keep up with every church regarding individual practices. I do know that one just from paying attention. I also know that the non-denominational church I grew up with (though baptized Lutheran) and where I attended school had their unique view of the Bible as well, even if they claimed to not belong to a denomination.

If you pay attention to the message, it becomes clear that every one of these churches has a message (I won't say agenda) that is often about saving people. There's also a lot of focus on the New Testament and how it can be applied to our everyday lives; rather than the Old Testament, which is rarely talked about unless it's targeted towards kids or Bible study

 

[Jabberwocky]

I never understood interpreting (optional quotation marks) scripture and I've read the original languages the Bible was written in. I guess it's a way to say that one is getting outside information on what a text means. Why somebody believes that is their prerogative; you know, one church has their interpretation and so forth

Predestination is Calvinism, not that I keep up with every church regarding individual practices. I do know that one just from paying attention. I also know that the non-denominational church I grew up with (though baptized Lutheran) and where I attended school had their unique view of the Bible as well, even if they claimed to not belong to a denomination.

If you pay attention to the message, it becomes clear that every one of these churches has a message (I won't say agenda) that is often about saving people. There's also a lot of focus on the New Testament and how it can be applied to our everyday lives; rather than the Old Testament, which is rarely talked about unless it's targeted towards kids or Bible study

These are really great posts that make me think. I think of New Testament/Old Testament being on a continuum (with) a lot of other people, so, I don't always need to know details. Its fun if its something specific but I'm thinking however you sing 'Torah' is how you sing it (in a spiritual/predestination dichotomy).

 

[Gnostic Bishop]

@dalpat077 Yeah, again for me, it's an individual thing. I don't belong to a church, although I'd probably consider myself a Baptist, I'm still open to upgrading my interpretation when presented with something new. It's easier for me to believe. I used to be agnostic/athiest, but there's just nothing in that "philosophy" that is spiritually fulfilling by any means, and I felt empty inside for most of my life. Atheism is all about fighting back against something, as opposed to building anything. These days, spirituality is like an armor for me, and I have relieved myself of a lot of the fears and insecurities I used to grapple with.

As far as tragedies/murders/etc. and natural disasters are concerned, I believe that people that are victim to them either have immortal life through Christ or are reincarnated, ie. Buddhism, Hinduism. In which case, it is only tragedy on this Earth, as this life is temporary. I don't really believe in hell. Just because you can't touch something, doesn't make it any less real. When I read scripture most recently, I truly felt something righteous inside myself, and had a spiritual awakening. Is that the Holy Spirit working inside me? Of course I can't "prove" what I feel to you, but I believe it what I feel. Not everyone has this spiritual experience in their life, and that's ok. No one can be forced to believe anything, and I know this for sure because I tried to believe many times before in my life, but it took a certain series of events for it to click inside me.

@Gnostic Bishop And in regard to Jesus's claim about divorce, he merely said it was considered adultery, unless someone had been unfaithful. Adultery is a sin. Jesus died for our sins to be forgiven and to make a new covenant between God and the entire world, so it would just be a matter of repenting. HIs words on the two most important commandments are: have faith, love your neighbor. My biggest beef w/ the NT is how much credibility is given to the Apostle Paul and the early church. I believe they failed to interpret Jesus's word right from the get, hence bigots popping open 1 Corinthians to preach about "Christian morality". That's BS to me. I much prefer the minor epistles, in particular the Book of James is one of my favorite pieces of writing of any genre.

God does seem like a genocidal maniac in the Hebrew bible, but if one were to take the scriptures as fact, we were made by God and wouldn't have life without him anyway. As we were made in God's image, I look at it like he holds regrets like anyone else, hence the New Testament to make up for it.

Idk, it's a simple philosophy for me. It's a lot easier for me to "let go, and let God', as they say in AA. All I know is that I don't know.

If the first covenant was worthy, a new one would not have been required. To suggest Yahweh made a mistake is quire brave of you.

Scriptures say Yahweh never changes his mind, and here you have him doing just that.

On Jesus dying for you. Try to think in a moral way.

It takes quite an inflated ego to think a god would actually die for you, after condemning you unjustly in the first place.

You have swallowed a lie and don’t care how evil you make Jesus to keep your feel good get out of hell free card.

It is a lie, first and foremost because, like it or not, having another innocent person suffer or die for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral. To abdicate your personal responsibility for your actions or use a scapegoat is immoral.

You also have to ignore what Jesus, as a Jewish Rabbi, would have taught his people.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Psa 49;7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

There is no way that you would teach your children to use a scapegoat to escape their just punishments and here you are doing just that.

Jesus is just a smidge less immoral than his demiurge genocidal father, and here you are trying to put him as low in moral fiber as Yahweh.

Regards
DL

 

[Gnostic Bishop]

@Gnostic Bishop And in regard to Jesus's claim about divorce, he merely said it was considered adultery, unless someone had been unfaithful. Adultery is a sin.

Perhaps, but being forced to live in a loveless or abusive relationship is quite immoral.

You have Jesus putting love below sex which was not his way.

Homophobes are poorly adjusted individuals who put sex above love, which shows how vile their thinking is.

Regards
DL

 

[Gnostic Bishop]

I'm an atheist since I don't practise religion. I guess more emphatically you could say I don't believe in religion. Same thing. I like to read about and appreciate religions but I'll never belong to one and that's all right too

You were kind to our friend.

You build intelligent thought, while our friend does not seem to mind that what Christianity has built is a homophobic and misogynous religion that adores a genocidal prick of a god.

Thank all the gods you are an atheist instead of their type of immoral theist.

Regards
DL

 

[Gnostic Bishop]

Evolution, in this case specifically, a social construct to govern human behavior and the advancement of our species.

Survival is not immoral, this Earth would be a pretty brutal place to survive for homo sapiens otherwise.

Immoral is a subjective term relative to individuals or groups of individuals and the idiosyncrasies within homo sapiens' social constructs.

Our secular governments are a damned site more moral than the mainstream religions.

I see that you did not really want to address my questions.

Regards
DL

 

[deficiT]

If the first covenant was worthy, a new one would not have been required. To suggest Yahweh made a mistake is quire brave of you.

Scriptures say Yahweh never changes his mind, and here you have him doing just that.

On Jesus dying for you. Try to think in a moral way.

It takes quite an inflated ego to think a god would actually die for you, after condemning you unjustly in the first place.

You have swallowed a lie and don’t care how evil you make Jesus to keep your feel good get out of hell free card.

It is a lie, first and foremost because, like it or not, having another innocent person suffer or die for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral. To abdicate your personal responsibility for your actions or use a scapegoat is immoral.

You also have to ignore what Jesus, as a Jewish Rabbi, would have taught his people.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Psa 49;7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

There is no way that you would teach your children to use a scapegoat to escape their just punishments and here you are doing just that.

Jesus is just a smidge less immoral than his demiurge genocidal father, and here you are trying to put him as low in moral fiber as Yahweh.

Regards
DL

The scripture say's a lot of different things that a lot of different people have interpreted in myriad ways, you could pull contradictory quotes out of any of it. Again, it's really just a matter of whether one feels comforted by the existence of a higher power or not, forming your own understanding to comfort yourself, but there's nothing new under the sun. We are flawed carbon based life forms trying to make sense of a vast universe, follow what makes you feel better in this existence, we only have the means of understanding that has been brought before us and are only so capable. The Golden Rule abides for most, as it should.

 

[Gnostic Bishop]

The scripture say's a lot of different things that a lot of different people have interpreted in myriad ways, you could pull contradictory quotes out of any of it. Again, it's really just a matter of whether one feels comforted by the existence of a higher power or not, forming your own understanding to comfort yourself, but there's nothing new under the sun. We are flawed carbon based life forms trying to make sense of a vast universe, follow what makes you feel better in this existence, we only have the means of understanding that has been brought before us and are only so capable. The Golden Rule abides for most, as it should.

True, now if only the religious would walk their talk instead of using homophobia and misogyny against those they do not treat as they would themselves, and posit that a genocidal prick of a god id a good god.

You go ahead and respect that hypocrisy. I will not.

Regards
DL

 

[Waxworth]

Here is a scripture that coincides and agrees with most of religious text, and human experience can agree upon.


Colossians 3:14

English Standard Version

14 And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Faith is such an easy thing to criticize because its so human and so fallible.

 

[deficiT]

Christ Jesus is Lord don't be blasphemer or you'll cross the river styx to purgatory; just like happened to Edgar Allan Poe when he married his cousin and died on a bench in Baltimore

Good author

Weird shit he did

= purgatory

Heavens better than hell

Aint ya read the bible