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Shrooms vs. LSD - Which is More Likely to Induce a BAD TRIP?

According to this study; dopamine receptor affinity is a major contributing factor in the psychotomimetic effects of PCP, ketamine and LSD:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15852061

This makes a lot of sense as all antipsychotics work primarily as dopamine antagonists. Many of them (atypicals especially) are also serotonin antagonists, which means they are basically the antithesis of LSD.
Strong D2 agonism (on top of other dopaminergic activity) would explain why PCP is one of the most powerful psychotomimetic drugs in its category.

Psilocin has no affinity for dopamine receptors. Obviously you can still have a bad trip on them but the likelihood of seriously freaking out or losing it is definitely lower than with LSD.

Vurtual said:
I find mushrooms tend more towards the emotional personal and even traumatic ego-loss experience. Whereas when it goes south on acid it's more about insanity and not coming back - both can be just as 'bad' but bad mushroom trips i find more unpleasant (though probably more cathartic for it when the comedown kicks in). Close friends think the opposite though. It's probably down to which one you have a bad trip on first i'd say (if any)
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^^^This. The insanity that you feel when things start to go south on acid is insanity... acid is psychotomimetic.
 
Yes but i don't mind that funhouse/trickster vibe - it's the character of acid that i like - it doesn't feel like psychosis to me (and isn't thought of that way i thought since they changed the name to psychedelic cos it didn't match psychosis very well). High dose mushrooms are less pleasant for me, and straight tryptamines generally just seem more likely to make me introspective and neurotic - don't get me wrong, most of the time it's great - as i said the preference is probably related to the particular oprder i did my first intense trips in - i was less likely to have those types of trips on acid cos i'd already had them on mushrooms or something.

(and there's only so much you can tell about how trips work subjectively by looking at receptor affinities - plus there's a lot more to the psychosis story than dopamine as far as i (amateurishly) remember (eg glutamate). Looking at individual neurons and trying to infer subjective experience is like following the movements of an ant and expecting to understand the whole colony's actions - the magic comes from the system as a whole and how all its parts interact.
 
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I've also never had a bad trip myself. But from experience I would have to say I am more likely to see myself having a bad trip on shrooms than LSD.
The reason being that (at the doses I've tried) mushrooms have a much more profound effect on the way I think and perceive the world around me; with LSD being more empathic. This being said, I was never able to know the dosages of LSD I took, which I presume were pretty low.
 
Vurtual said:
(and there's only so much you can tell about how trips work subjectively by looking at receptor affinities
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I know that, but then how do you explain its effects on hormones? Some studies claim LSD lowers serum prolactin. Others claim no change from baseline. Either way this is noteworthy because other 5HT psychedelics (mescaline, psilocin and DMT) and serotonin itself are known to raise prolactin. LSD inhibits prolactin and this is obviously due to dopamine agonism.

Also, LSD is also a powerful stimulant. Anyone who's had real, high quality LSD will have felt this - it has an edge to it that other psychedelics just don't have.
You're right about psychosis being about more than just dopamine, but mania (which is a simpler condition) is still a very real possibility on LSD even if you don't have head problems. I have experienced it many times.
 
Shrooms are definitely more likely to. All my "bad trips" have only been "bad" because I was fucking around in my life at that time, and shrooms are going to throw everything you're doing in your face way more so than LSD will.
 
I find it easier to misjudge a proper dose with mushrooms. In fact, lately I have found it more productive to titrate my doses over the course of the evening (or day, as it may be), a cap or stem at a time, every hour or so. Too many times have I thought that I would be fine with a handful of mushrooms and found myself in a very dark place for three or four hours before I could work my way through to a better mindset.
 
Yeah you can only infer so much from the receptor affinities, at some point it comes down to the subjective experience. Tryptamines have a much more serious character than phens and lysergamides.
 
ecstacylover said:
Yeah you can only infer so much from the receptor affinities, at some point it comes down to the subjective experience. Tryptamines have a much more serious character than phens and lysergamides.
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Did you even read my post? How do you explain prolactin inhibition if LSD is not significantly dopaminergic???
 
I didn't think anyone was denying the dopamine component of lsd, just saying that dopamine in a trip doesn't equal psychosis. Psychosis is a much higher level phenomena than receptor signaling - like all mental experience it's made up of trillions of cells all interacting in staggeringly complex ways - looking at one component in isolation and without even locating it in the brain can't tell you much about it. Reductionism is overrated imo - especially in terms of biological systems.
 
Vurtual said:
I didn't think anyone was denying the dopamine component of lsd, just saying that dopamine in a trip doesn't equal psychosis. Psychosis is a much higher level phenomena than receptor signaling - like all mental experience it's made up of trillions of cells all interacting in staggeringly complex ways - looking at one component in isolation and without even locating it in the brain can't tell you much about it. Reductionism is overrated imo - especially in terms of biological systems.
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It might not equal psychosis but that's not what the study said (or what I said). The study said that D2 agonism is a major contributary factor, which you really can't argue with. If dopamine didn't play a major role in psychosis then how come all antipsychotics work primarily as dopamine antagonists?

As I said before: even if you're not predisposed to psychosis, the dopaminergic activity can still trigger mania and severe anxiety. It's a double-edged sword.
 
Fair enough - i was straw-manning you a bit. I was just wary of using that information in how we were analysing our subjective experiences of lsd and other things. And saying dopamine agonism is a contributing factor doesn't really tell us that much anyway without knowing which specific parts of the system it affects and how the system works as a whole - dopamine is a low-level component, analysing it's actions in isolation can only tell us so much about the highest level aspects of that system.
 
This is a very difficult answer to give to the OP, everyone is different... it has to do with your beliefs, if you are insecure, you have fears or not... set and setting etc... and, and sometimes, your religious upbringing..... listening to other folks experiences wont necessarily become your own... it can be a roll of the dice...

I remember my first dose of LSD... I had unfortunately a CATHOLIC UPBRINGING ..
in the back of my head, i felt this was wrong.. so the trip went really negative... (i actualy seen little ant thingies crawling on me)... BUT soon after as i was wiping them off me... i bent down, and my gold cross dangled in front of me; I went holy fuck!!!!

All i could do was, grab it and rip it off my neck... I tossed it, the cross hit the wall, i yelled out load saying NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.... As the cross slid down, out of my view...

Instantly my trip went into a very loving experience.... a trip ill always remember ... my life changed because of that... in the best way possible... But it could have turned in the opposite direction.. (it was a 300ug dose) I love LSD to this day now 1p-LSD that's another story... beautiful stuff

Now for Shrooms... ME... 4 grams takes me places while i still have a sense of reality ... but 5 grams, if your indoors, i actually forget where the door and windows are, i'm somewhere else... still psychedelic have allot to do with how you where brought up and especially your set and setting...
 
It's a lil more subjective than that, for instance, my friend has bad trips on anything with a body load or a strong physical component to the effects, which is why he loves LSD, because there is a distinct lack of body tension that is unique in that substance. For me, it's easier to lose myself on LSD for that very reason, because the lack of body tension makes it harder to ground myself and easier to slip off into the depths of space, which can be ugly sometimes. Every person has a drug that kinda grabs them by the nuts, for me it's acid, for you, who knows?
 
I think shrooms is more likely to cause a "bad trip." LSD is very visual but does not diminish the ego as much as shrooms do in my experience. People can generally handle seeing more colors and breathing walls better than they can deal with an ego death.

But like PotatoMan said, the real culprit of a bad trip is always always always the set and setting
 
AA357 said:
It might not equal psychosis but that's not what the study said (or what I said). The study said that D2 agonism is a major contributary factor, which you really can't argue with. If dopamine didn't play a major role in psychosis then how come all antipsychotics work primarily as dopamine antagonists?

As I said before: even if you're not predisposed to psychosis, the dopaminergic activity can still trigger mania and severe anxiety. It's a double-edged sword.
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Although I agree with you, the logic behind antipsychotics = dopamine antagonists therefore psychosis = dopamine isn't flawless. There might be other factors involved, and it might not directly be the change in dopamine signalling that cause psychotic symptoms. It's a similar sort of story with depression = low levels of serotonin because SSRIs increase serotonin. Most recent papers seem to suggests serotonin only influences depression indirectly and it has more to do with chronic stress and elevated cortisol than neuromodulators...
 
Speed King said:
I say both, but I've tripped harder on shrooms so I'm going to say shrooms.
Is real acid even still around?
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Oh yea, it's still around :) . I would say mushrooms are more likely to give you a "bad" trip. The visuals are more intense at comparable dosage, which could freak some people out. I find it much easier to guide myself through an LSD trip than mushrooms. I'm more likely to get caught it a thought loop on shroomies. On LSD it's almost like I can "switch lanes" if I start to feel negative, and put my thought process on a better, more soothing track.
 
Mushrooms are a lot darker, edgier, harder to control, they don't feel as explicitly good physically & have more side effects, they hit & peak much faster so that's more alarming, so I'd say, generally, mushrooms are much more likely to induce a bad trip. Even the visuals are "creepier" & less pretty! (I say this all as a big fan of both mushrooms & LSD, both are very useful for their own reasons).
 
For me mushrooms can give much more bad trips by a mile - never really had a bad acid trip - I guess not many shroom ones - but there is a lot more emotional messiness trickery and confusion with them. Even good trips on shrooms there is more negative content - shrooms are a bit sloppy and drunkard for me - negative stuff on acid I find can be more usefully used or looked at in a therapuetic sense - more easy to get lost in it on shrooms - also I have found agression on shrooms - not normal for me or normal on a trip/

you can say it's harder to dose shrooms = Ive always(almost) had semilanceata which are pretty reliable but I don't think dose is always as relivant to a bad trip as some are suggesting here - it is content.
 
AA357 said:
According to this study; dopamine receptor affinity is a major contributing factor in the psychotomimetic effects of PCP, ketamine and LSD:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15852061

This makes a lot of sense as all antipsychotics work primarily as dopamine antagonists. Many of them (atypicals especially) are also serotonin antagonists, which means they are basically the antithesis of LSD.
Strong D2 agonism (on top of other dopaminergic activity) would explain why PCP is one of the most powerful psychotomimetic drugs in its category.

Psilocin has no affinity for dopamine receptors. Obviously you can still have a bad trip on them but the likelihood of seriously freaking out or losing it is definitely lower than with LSD.


^^^This. The insanity that you feel when things start to go south on acid is insanity... acid is psychotomimetic.
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Okay but in pharmacology, receptor affinity doesn't always equal activity, as psilocin has indirect dopaminergic activity in the human brain. Also subjectively, if a person is used to the cognitive enhancing effects of dopaminergic drugs, they will notice them in mushrooms.
 
Shrooms are more potent and stronger together with more intensity as oppossed to acid. 2gram of shrooms and I was on my way to a pretty long and intense trip. Do not underestimate the low dosage in regards to shrooms. 2 gramms and I think you will have a decent trip. Thats from my own experience.

I agree with some of the lads that acid can be predictable and while I like shrooms treat it with respect and be cautioned to the amount on ingestion.
This is from my own personal experience I can give.

Its the season for shrooms with autumn in the air and those leaves going rusty making for a beatuiful montage of colour on the trees and where theres piles of leaves on the ground.

Happy Days.:)
 
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