Shaun Ryder "I was always a thatcherite really"

[charlie clean]

Strictly speaking, Spade noting the Ryder story was an April Fool's joke was a pretty valid post. There again, if you google The Spade, all you find is fellows trying to sell garden implements. He's not an internet celebrity like Blondin and may not therefore be compared to Jesus. Yet.

Anyone who believes in celeb revolutionaries deserves all they get. With very rare exception, stories of how offa their heads they are and the wild things they do are gross exaggerations or the inventions of pr men looking to appeal to the 'rebel' market. Showbiz is a very capitalist business and audiences are sold an illusion that bears little relation to the offstage lives of the performers. The real artists, in a way, are the managers who manufacture these profitable 'images'. 'Stars' are usually ambitious, organised and not particularly interesting. Look for your heroes elsewhere.

 

[Marmalade]

Strictly speaking, Spade noting the Ryder story was an April Fool's joke was a pretty valid post

Indeed. exceptionally valid. but all the following 'daft' nonsense posts have fallen wide of the mark and it's been him missing the point since .. far surpassing the original oversight of an april fools gag

 

[Mental Kenny]

If you reads about Shaun Ryder, he was ripped off by some agent and is severely in debt. Every cent that he makes has to go to repay that debt, I'm sure he just accepted this job for financial reasons, and no one should be able to criticize unless you have found yourself in a similar situation.

Not getting money for work you've done and ending up in debt with kids to support is not funny, and to escape this it's totally fine to sell your soul to the devil.

 

[parttime crackhead]

What are you on about spade? If you don't like the thread can you pipe down mate? You must've added about 5 pointless messages.

Quite clearly a be-lated response to the amount of people that didn't click on to the original Shaun Ryder thing being an April Fool's joke. Calling you all daft for that is pretty fair in my opinion.


Edit - Aaaaand, just when you think everyone's clicked on, Mad Kenny jumps in to show that he's a dafty hahaha.

 

[Allein]

Anyone who believes in celeb revolutionaries deserves all they get. With very rare exception, stories of how offa their heads they are and the wild things they do are gross exaggerations or the inventions of pr men looking to appeal to the 'rebel' market. Showbiz is a very capitalist business and audiences are sold an illusion that bears little relation to the offstage lives of the performers. The real artists, in a way, are the managers who manufacture these profitable 'images'. 'Stars' are usually ambitious, organised and not particularly interesting. Look for your heroes elsewhere.

I couldn't have put it better myself, in fact I had several goes and failed !! your just buying into a persona some of it of your own making, I don't have such expectations of people artists or not. Especially when they are being offered load of £s to do very little.

I quite liked the Lemmy Bud ad I thought he retained his dignity some didn't and Lydon's butter add, first off he needed the cash to fund his tour and new album and he never had any fekin dignity in the first place.

As far as what Bill Hicks has to say, fek him history has proven no publicity is bad publicity almost every time, calling people "sell outs" or similar is just BS, exactly what does that mean???

 

[Marmalade]

As far as what Bill Hicks has to say, fek him history has proven no publicity is bad publicity almost every time, calling people "sell outs" or similar is just BS, exactly what does that mean???

it means you lose any shred of (artistic) integrity from there on in

such a person has metamorphosed into a product or a brand.

which is fine if that's what you're happy with, or where you want your 'career' to go. it's fine on a personal integrity level if that's what's acceptable to you.

but it totally affects the credibility of any 'point' you attempt to make in an artistic sense from there onwards. or a political point or cultural point or pretty much any point you make, or aspire to make publically, to an audience.

the above isn't hinged on people having unwarranted expectations of the artist

 

[Ismene]

Ok so now I'm actually convinced you've been duped yourself Issy and not on a massive windup / trolling sesh like I originally thought.

I'd actually forgotten about Ryder and been thinking more about rock stars doing adverts to be honest spade.

 

[Allein]

it means you lose any shred of (artistic) integrity from there on in

such a person has metamorphosed into a product or a brand.

which is fine if that's what you're happy with, or where you want your 'career' to go. it's fine on a personal integrity level if that's what's acceptable to you.

but it totally affects the credibility of any 'point' you attempt to make in an artistic sense from there onwards. or a political point or cultural point or pretty much any point you make, or aspire to make publically, to an audience.

the above isn't hinged on people having unwarranted expectations of the artist

But all of that is very subjective, some would say that as soon as you sign a record deal you've sold out, some not. "Artistic Integrity" thats just flim flam. Vincent van Gogh did much of his greatest work under commission as many artists do, are they exempt in some way from this view. Most of his own work seemed to involve plates of potatoes....I kid you not.

Sculptors in in general wouldn't have a chance of survival if they didn't take commissions, many of which I am sure are far from what they would choose.

People are just making a living it is our expectations and values that we are expecting them to live up to, Iggy didn't sign a contract with the world saying he'd never use his fame to make cash.

Many an artist has used their fame to indulge themselves in self serving musical and artistic projects which could be considered even worse than doing ads, at least doing ads is a honest admission of "I'm doing this because of my fame and laughing all the way to the bank"

We don't know these people or what their political views may or may not be at this time or any time, you can't cast them in stone and expect them to be your puppet, playing whatever tune you think they should be playing.

I know my political and cultural vies have changed dramatically over the years and continue to do so we are all in a state of constant flux, just because you recorded something in 1978 doesn't mean you can;t have moved from that statement today. In many ways I think the changing of your views shows greater integrity becuase its bound to be true in many ways.

 

[Marmalade]

Edit - Aaaaand, just when you think everyone's clicked on, Mad Kenny jumps in to show that he's a dafty hahaha.

for a brief moment after reading the Kenny post I went all Spade and considered he might be peeing himself laughing as he clicked 'post'. but unfortunately, I think he just hasn't read the thread

 

[Marmalade]

People are just making a living it is our expectations and values that we are expecting them to live up to, Iggy didn't sign a contract with the world saying he'd never use his fame to make cash.

I don't expect Iggy to live up to anything. I have a personal bugbear against having expectations too, as it happens.
I simply lose interest when [edit] the advertising and endorsement thing happens[/edit], and the words which are now written from said artist shall be questioned by me through another filter, one that will inevitably mean I value them less because there's been a clear statement of intent which didn't previously exist. that's what advertising a product does unfortunately.

Many an artist has used their fame to indulge themselves in self serving musical and artistic projects which could be considered even worse than doing ads, at least doing ads is a honest admission of "I'm doing this because of my fame and laughing all the way to the bank"

Indulging in your 'fame' or success to pursue other artistic projects is something completely different. I'm not even sure why you've mentioned it.

[edit]
If you're meaning that artists self indulge with their fame with the intent of becoming 'commercial', specifically to make money, then I'd agree with you, that definitely lacks integrity - it's a separate issue to advertising though, and doesn't have any relevance to a discussion about the latter really

 

[Myshkin]

There's a film coming out about Lawrence from Felt. I know I always bang on about him, but it's relevant so bear with me.

For most of the first decade of this century Lawrence, having been dropped by his record label and struggling with mental health issues, heroin addiction and eventually homelessness, was continually offered six-figure sums to reform Felt, who had gained a lot of publicity from Belle & Sebastian's constant namedropping and were already a cult legend anyway. He was pretty much guaranteed a comfortable future as long as he got Felt back together.

His response - total refusal, because Felt to him and many other people were special, and he believes a reunion would debase that. He chose poverty and integrity rather than material comfort and compromising that integrity.

I'm not saying artists who 'sell out' don't have the right to do so, but what I am saying is that refusal to take that route certainly does count for something.

 

[spudgun]

T

I'm not saying artists who 'sell out' don't have the right to do so, but what I am saying is that refusal to take that route certainly does count for something.

Well said

 

[Marmalade]

He was pretty much guaranteed a comfortable future as long as he got Felt back together.

same for Arab Strap, probably

 

[Allein]

There's a film coming out about Lawrence from Felt. I know I always bang on about him, but it's relevant so bear with me.

For most of the first decade of this century Lawrence, having been dropped by his record label and struggling with mental health issues, heroin addiction and eventually homelessness, was continually offered six-figure sums to reform Felt, who had gained a lot of publicity from Belle & Sebastian's constant namedropping and were already a cult legend anyway. He was pretty much guaranteed a comfortable future as long as he got Felt back together.

He's making a film about it, do you think he's doing that for free.. I don't know but I doubt it.

His response - total refusal, because Felt to him and many other people were special, and he believes a reunion would debase that. He chose poverty and integrity rather than material comfort and compromising that integrity.

I'm not saying artists who 'sell out' don't have the right to do so, but what I am saying is that refusal to take that route certainly does count for something.

I don't have an issue with any of that, the point I'm making is just because your an artist or some sort isn't an measure of integrity, sure that was his choice and how he felt (no pun intended) other members of the band may not have agreed with him. For all we know he did this for selfish reasons, he may not have wanted fame and fortune and was quite happy with how he was living.

What I'm saying is we can't go round judging people at all let alone people we don't even know or know ther motivations for doing what they do.

The whole idea of "the sell out" is so subjective, I'm sure he disappointed many fans does that make him selfish...no we don't own them they can do as they wish, we are also free to pass judgment if we feel the need, but how valid is that judgment really ?

 

[Marmalade]

the point I'm making is just because your an artist or some sort isn't an measure of integrity

I wasn't aware anyone was disagreeing with this point. I definitely wasnt

what is a measure of integrity is the choices that we make. and choosing to advertise a product if youre an artist simply compromises the words you choose to project to an audience. unless those words are [or have been] I Like this product

[edit]
the above is badly worded but i havent got time to edit n make it more salient/to the point

 

[Myshkin]

For all we know he did this for selfish reasons, he may not have wanted fame and fortune and was quite happy with how he was living.

He did want fame and fortune though, and still does. He just sees Felt as something almost sacred, and thinks he'd be destroying that if he were to cash in on a reformation. I think that's a beautiful, romantic thing and it adds an extra dimension to all the work he did with Felt.

Which is not to say I judge the past output of people who do cash in on the basis that they've subsequently 'sold out' - I'm not going to throw away my Stooges records because Iggy did an insurance ad, nor do Mr. Lydon's recent transgressions make me hate the Pistols or PiL. Hell, Michael Gira revived the Swans name and it isn't really Swans when it comes down to it, but I still love the guy and all his work.

Forgive me - despite my best efforts to portray myself as otherwise, ultimately I'm a sentimental fool.

 

[Allein]

I wasn't aware anyone was disagreeing with this point. I definitely wasnt

what is a measure of integrity is the choices that we make. and choosing to advertise a product if youre an artist simply compromises the words you choose to project to an audience. unless those words are [or have been] I Like this product

[edit]
the above is badly worded but i havent got time to edit n make it more salient/to the point

All our lives are one big set of compromises based on what we believe is how things should be, for me just handling money is a compromise, let alone the companies I have worked for and the profit I make in various ways for organizations I would prefer not to support. Right down to how and where I buy the food I eat and the clothes I wear.

The point I'm trying so hard to make is that if we, ourselves are constantly making compromises that effect our integrity and that those values will no doubt vary from one person to another. How can we possibly sit in judgment of anyone else and say they have compromised themselves because of ther actions.

They may well have disappointed us and our view of what their values were but that's us making a judgment on them and believing that we think our view in integrity is some how universal, which it is not. You can't tell me that you understand someone that well just because you have listened to some musical recordings they have made it just doesn't hold water.

For me ultimately I judge an artist by what I think of their art not what I think about what they might do to turn a few extra £s, we all have to do what we have to do as long as it doesn't set out to do harm then it's an irrelevance to me.

 

[parttime crackhead]

Fair points atm.

The thing is, I do judge myself on the compromises I make & I expect other people to judge me on them. I expect "artists" (if that's the term we're going to use) to expect themselves to be judged by the compromises they make & expect that they should think of the consequences & be prepared to live with that. They should expect that the consequences be that people question their integrity/whatever but they ultimately decide that they are prepared to accept this for that cash money. That's fair enough, but they should expect peoples perceptions of them to change - I'm not saying that they should care, that's up to them.

To say that your opinions of a person shouldn't change because of them choosing to advertise something, in the way that you are saying it, is like saying your opinions of them shouldn't change regardless of what they do. Your opinions of them are fully formed by what they do or are perceived to do, there's no other way for your opinion to be formed. That opinion will then obviously change when they do something that is (in your/my mind) out of character.

For example, if Iggy Pop was on TV flogging car insurance at the same time as his band were becoming famous, would you have got into that band?

Now, Iggy has every right to flog car insurance, just as fans of Iggy Pop have ever right to say "Fuck Iggy Pop for selling car insurance, he's a prick!".

You also have to take into account that (at least some of) these fans have a particular right to have/voice these opinions because if they hadn't bought the guys records in the first place then he wouldn't be famous & wouldn't be on any advert selling anything.

 

[Myshkin]

Some good points and a considered post, PTCH.

What the fuck's wrong with you then, eh? :D

 

[Allein]

Yeah I don't have an issue with any of that PTCH .....who's hacked his account