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Shamanism

Flickering

Flickering

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Who has practised it, who has experience with shamans and shamanic healing? I am curious as someone who's looking for a legitimate shaman. And I'm usually quite doubtful of this kind of thing. But the universe is a strange place so who knows, I'm open to it.
 
Here's the thing about shamans -- they practice what they do within a cultural context. No matter where they're from, the symbolism, ritual, and attempted descriptions of the ineffable that any true shaman uses builds off of a particular secular culture and way of seeing the natural world that's familiar to him, and to his inductees. If you attempt to be inducted into a mystical state with the help of a shaman, and you're not deeply steeped in this same cultural context, chances are the message will get garbled. You won't get out of it what the shaman wanted you to get out of it, and likely won't get what you wanted out of it either.

My advice to anyone looking for a shamanic journey is to look local. You might have to look hard, but it's there. Chances are you're at least loosely connected to some religious, professional, educational, fraternal, or hobby-related group that contains people who practice some form of mysticism, and are willing to guide a serious and trusted fellow community member in a similar journey. Don't settle for low quality, though. This will take you some time to find, and some time to build up trust. Shamans are not a part of mainstream Western cultures, due to the legacy of the Enlightenment. But they still appear in the West just as everywhere else, because they serve a human need that the Enlightenment couldn't will away. They're just underground.
 
MDAO, while your argument is a logical one, from a personal viewpoint, I have to respectfully disagree. Language is the gateway into learning about, and integrating another sociocultural reality into your own sociopsychological experience of life, so if you can learn the language of a shaman you want to learn from, I don't see a sociocultural barrier at all.

I have known a renowned Cofán shaman for over a year and a half now, a man that I would class as one of my dearest friends, and I have learnt more about myself and traditional Amazonian shaman practice through my relationship with this man and his apprentices, than anything I could ever learn in the west.

Shamanism, even in a traditional setting such as the Colombian Amazon is not a static system of belief, it evolves with the constant and inevitable blending of cultures that occurs naturally as populations expand. Within the group that I drink with, one of the apprentices is a professor of philosophy and the other is a professor of Indigenous literature at a renowned Colombian university, so the interpretations of the myths and the stories through which the Amazonian shamans disseminate their explications are also evolving into a more western context.

One of the most common misconceptions about shamanism is that the taita tells the drinker/patient what their experience means. This is entirely untrue. Whichever plant one works with is the teacher, and the shaman acts as an intermediary between the "spirits" of the plant (that s/he has come to know though thousands of experiences) and the drinker - if the drinker is a patient that is suffering a mental or physical illness, the taita manipulates the spirits of the plants through music, song and dance to treat the issue.

The experience itself is entirely personal, especially if one is drinking to learn (not for healing some issue) and is interpreted through your own dataset of perceptions of the world. Indeed, the shaman may not even turn his attention to you during a ceremony once you are learning as he knows that you're increasing your connection with the plant, and developing the relationship in a way that you can understand.

The problem I have western shamanism is that it is predominantly based on the writings of such crack-pots as Terence McKenna and Tim Leary. And considering I've spent a considerable time in the same area of the Colombian Amazon as McKenna, I can categorically state that almost everything expounded in his writing has absolutely nothing to do with Amazonian shamanism. The man was an egotistical maniac, plain and simple.

Would I rather learn under the guidance of someone that comes from a culture with over a thousand years experience in this area (that presents as your equal) or someone who believes they have magical powers and reveres McKenna and Leary (that presents as an expert)?

I have some experience with shamanism (I plan to return to Colombia to start an apprenticeship after completing my postgraduate studies) and I have also experienced a traditional healing, but I'm not exactly sure what you're asking, Flickering?
 
I'm not really asking anything, just wanted to start up a discussion about shamanism, particularly in the west. But I don't have any personal experience with shamans so I found both your points of view interesting.

I'm glad yagecero that you say the shaman isn't there to 'interpret' the visions for you. I found the idea of someone sitting next to me during an ayahuasca ceremony, telling me what I was seeing according to some mystical beliefs I don't necessarily ascribe to, disconcerting. But I've also been told that doing ayahuasca in the wrong environment, and without a shaman, disrespects the substance.

In my case, the opportunity came up recently to meet with someone who's apparently a shaman, and charges for 'cleansing' sessions, but I haven't been able to get in touch with him. I'm skeptical of this sort of thing, especially where money comes in. The friend who recommended him tends to believe any rubbish that comes her way. However, another of my friends went to see him for the same problem I had (we were both part of a martial arts club / cult with a very 'toxic' and fraudulent man) and he reported feeling much better after the session (which did not involve any substance). He also feels no obligation to chase after the man who wronged us, whereas I admittedly have been obsessed with catching him for quite some time. Could all be a placebo effect, but one could say the same for any mystical practice.

The thing is, I wouldn't know how to distinguish between an outright fraud, someone who actually thinks they have shamanic powers, and someone who actually does have shamanic powers - if they do indeed exist.

However, I'm open to exploring shamanism, particularly because I sometimes feel a sort of affinity to native American culture and their depictions of altered states.
 
^^ I think what PIP is saying is that shamanism incorporates any-possible-and-every-thing: the experience manifests in a personal manner for the practitioner. ;)

Flickering said:
I'm glad yagecero that you say the shaman isn't there to 'interpret' the visions for you. I found the idea of someone sitting next to me during an ayahuasca ceremony, telling me what I was seeing according to some mystical beliefs I don't necessarily ascribe to, disconcerting.
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Wouldn't it be disconcerting. A proper ceremony will be mostly silent for the majority of the time in very low, almost dark, candle-light and when there is sound, it is the shaman (or other experienced drinkers/apprentices) singing an icaro or playing an instrument. Nobody talks during the ceremony (except for spontaneous breaking into song, speaking in tongues, screaming that one is about to die, groaning etc. lol that occurs from time to time), everyone has their own little space and they spend the time inside their head.

The shaman doesn't say anything unless you ask him something directly.

But I've also been told that doing ayahuasca in the wrong environment, and without a shaman, disrespects the substance.
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I don't agree with this at all. The issue is one of respect for the process. Both apprentices that I know drinking frequently by themselves in their homes. Do I think there is something to be gained from drinking in a traditional setting? From a personal perspective, yes.

In my case, the opportunity came up recently to meet with someone who's apparently a shaman, and charges for 'cleansing' sessions, but I haven't been able to get in touch with him. I'm skeptical of this sort of thing, especially where money comes in.
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An Amazonian shaman will charge $20 for the experience if that puts things into perspective. I know that there are "shamans" in my city in Australia that charge exorbitant fees for their "services", and while I haven't met them personally, I would be reluctant to get involved with this scenario as well.

The thing is, I wouldn't know how to distinguish between an outright fraud, someone who actually thinks they have shamanic powers, and someone who actually does have shamanic powers - if they do indeed exist.
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This is an enormous issue - there are many charlatans in the jungle now, and even more in the west, but let me put it logically without dressing it up in spirituality: A shaman is fundamentally a super experienced trip sitter. Through thousands of experiences with the plants that s/he works with (under the guidance of someone that is even more experienced during their apprenticeship), a shaman learns how to manipulate the effects a participant experiences after imbibing, through music, song, various actions and movements, and can guide someone's journey IF NECESSARY (they will usually leave you alone to talk to a tree or whatever you're doing at the time, which is usually just lying in a hammock). In this sense, a shaman is also a therapist of sorts. S/he knows what to do when various issues arise during a ceremony and can change the course of the experience with sound and movement/action.

However, I'm open to exploring shamanism, particularly because I sometimes feel a sort of affinity to native American culture and their depictions of altered states.
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Any shaman worth your while will directly tell you that you are equals and that it is the plant that is the teacher, not them. The thing I really dig about a traditional ceremony is the silence (with jungle noises in the background) because without music playing (which in the west is a given during almost every psychedelic experience) the experience becomes audible as well. Music comes from no(some)where and it's truly magical.

And just on a personal note, there is NO better location than the jungle for a ceremony.

*Obviously I'm referring predominantly to the Ayahuasqueros of the Colombian Amazon.
 
As far as i am concerned anyone who posses the path of knowledge necescary to unlock the spiritual evocation/enlightenmint of chemicals is a shaamman
Or maybe a shamamma o la la mamma
 
you are exactly right doorsareopen. My entire life i wanted "enlightenment". i thought if i could make it to india or tibet or wherever i would then find it and here i am just practicing for it. Then something very profound happened, i left my body during a meditation. Everything changed. I no longer believed i was an eternal spirit but i knew it.

After that i experienced different spectrum's of my form of enlightenment. I lost it one day through guilt of doing something "wrong" and possibly losing what i have just gained! I was so scared because it felt so good i didnt want that feeling to die! I realized that ecstasy i felt through awakening grew to an attachment and i had to remove it in a sense.

I lost what i thought i had and went back to "normal". Few weeks later to realize i never lost what i obtained it just manifested in a different way because i was meant to learn more. You never reach "IT" because it is energy and energy is ever changing! Later realized after a very intense salvia trip after my soul star chakra was illuminated through my new sense of the world and crystals. yes crystals like danburite and moldavite and nuummite changed my entire world!

Through this salvia experience i come fully in contact with my higher self. He was just as curious what this experience of life was just as much as i was. Only we were experiencing them on complete polar opposites.. him being eternal source of light and energy me being the physical representation of that energy so i can experience and "see" that energy but play this game where i dont remember it being what it truly is so i can admire.. awe.. and find new ways of looking at it.

I talked completely on a higher level of intellect i thought i was capable of. Such profound insight on what i was or this is i was forever changed. Soul star chakra allows you to to get to the gate to that higher self, once i was there the salvia opened that door easily and he was so confused on what i just did i was tapping into things i completely didnt know before hand.

Through this i realized i have always been enlightened, and every single person / thing is absolutely enlightened as well, they just arent aware of it. Thats perfectly fine because if we all were it would be absolutely boring and no one would grow. I learn more from people pretending they dont know what enlightenment is rather than other people who know.

Back on topic now after this salvia the next day we heard of this amazing house not too far from where i live that has some kind of meditation maze made out of stones and a beautiful flower of some sort to meditate on. Through the course of this maze and meditation i learned it was life, on a very very small scale but i got "IT". the salvia experience was a completely higher self illuminating experience and the next day through the circle of meditation i came to fully love this nature, grounding. experienced both spectrum's of myself and this flow of energy.

This place has been there for a long time and ive never known. I came to know my enlightenment through not 10 miles away from my home its been right here the whole time. If i were anywhere else in the world i probably would not of came to this realization nearly as quickly and i am so deeply greatful for it. Now i just walk around barefoot around my neighborhood speaking to people and them asking me how i am walking in the freezing rain at 35 degrees barefoot and i tell them!

Its quite amazing good luck on all of your journeys. they never end. Once you realize you are "IT" and that IT changes constantly. Know what you are because you are it. if you wake up not feeling it say to yourself how funny your enlightenment is showing itself today! and love it.

If you feel it then love it.

Much love!
 
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yagecero said:
I think what PIP is saying is that shamanism incorporates any-possible-and-every-thing: the experience manifests in a personal manner for the practitioner.
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Indeed, that's what I picked up too. I agree with your post and PiP's pretty much entirely. In its broadest definition, a shaman is just a mystic who guides others on mystical journeys of their own, based on what they've learned. It's like an EMT who teaches others basic life support on the weekends. Anyone can be one, though like any role in society, some play it better than others. Just because you've got a skill doesn't mean you can teach it effectively, and not everyone willing to teach something is good at it themselves.

In its narrowest (and in some anthropologists' opinion, the only correct) definition of "shaman" is a medium or spirit communicator from one of the Tungusic peoples of Siberia, some of whom have traditionally used fly agaric mushrooms, and of whom there are very few genuine living ones left.

Flickering, I'm happy for you that you proved me wrong and were able to find a shaman from a rather different cultural background who was able to get through to you. This has not been the experience of everyone I've talked to who's done such a thing, to the point where I doubt I'd seek out the mystical guidance of a seer from a very distant culture, unless of course he or she was someone with whom I had an established and deep bond at the time the idea came up. For example, a good friend of mine comes from a long line of abbots in a Mahayana Buddhist lineage in Japan, and his father (an all around awesome guy as well, whom I have a lot of respect for) is still connected with the group. Not that I anticipate this happening, but if he ever invited me to some sort of mystical practice or ritual that was traditional to his lineage, I might just take him up on it. There's a big difference between that and just knocking on the door of some old sage in the mountains somewhere far away, plunking down my filthy framepack, and asking him to take me on as an initiate. That kind of thing [succeeding] is the stuff of legend, yes. But I see many, many ways it can go wrong, and many misunderstandings that could get in the way of any real learning, and potentially render the overwhelming and unordinary experience of a mystical state quite frightening.
 
MyDoorsAreOpen said:
Flickering, I'm happy for you that you proved me wrong and were able to find a shaman from a rather different cultural background who was able to get through to you. This has not been the experience of everyone I've talked to who's done such a thing, to the point where I doubt I'd seek out the mystical guidance of a seer from a very distant culture, unless of course he or she was someone with whom I had an established and deep bond at the time the idea came up. For example, a good friend of mine comes from a long line of abbots in a Mahayana Buddhist lineage in Japan, and his father (an all around awesome guy as well, whom I have a lot of respect for) is still connected with the group. Not that I anticipate this happening, but if he ever invited me to some sort of mystical practice or ritual that was traditional to his lineage, I might just take him up on it. There's a big difference between that and just knocking on the door of some old sage in the mountains somewhere far away, plunking down my filthy framepack, and asking him to take me on as an initiate. That kind of thing [succeeding] is the stuff of legend, yes. But I see many, many ways it can go wrong, and many misunderstandings that could get in the way of any real learning, and potentially render the overwhelming and unordinary experience of a mystical state quite frightening.
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Was this section also meant for me? Or did I miss something Flickering wrote?

I met the shaman I know through one of his apprentices. I'm obviously very interested in critical thought, and during my first trip to Colombia, the girl I was seeing at the time introduced me to her friend (the previously mentioned professor of philosophy) so that we could discuss the nature of reality (I think she was getting sick of my constant analysis and deconstruction of life, lol). After getting to know each other very well and developing a good friendship, I brought up the topic of the trance state induced by certain tryptamines and how some of my experiences with mushrooms had lead me to a psycho-spacial state that transgressed our regular data set of signs.

This has always fascinated me due to the fact that our "regular" semiotic interpretation of "reality" allows us to make clear and conferable explications [approximations] of our experience in a way that others can understand. But when we find ourselves in the realms of the ineffable, it truly feels that we tap into the "other side" of reality, a world that is impossible to relate to others through language.

After lengthy discussions about this topic, my friend told me about his other vocation and introduced me to the other apprentice (who uses current theory to interpret indigenous poetry), and from their I met the taita. I'm saying this because it ties in with what Flickering said about not being able to tell the difference between a charlatan and a real practitioner. I knew that my friends weren't loco given their positions in society and their deep understanding of western philosophy. The trust that this fostered in combination with my fluency in Spanish allowed me to discover a very authentic shaman that is in the process of training modern intellectuals in this ancient practice.

MDAO, you're obviously a very sane, intelligent individual, so if you feel a connection to your friend's father and you have a strong interest in Mahayana Buddhism, I think you should actively seek out the experience. It sounds like it would be absolutely amazing. I find it interesting that you already have an inkling that the invitation will come one day anyway - it speaks volumes of the trust that you have for your friend, his family and their heritage. :)

I think we may be on exactly the same page here. Scepticism is important if one is playing with these worlds. As you said:

There's a big difference between that and just knocking on the door of some old sage in the mountains somewhere far away, plunking down my filthy framepack, and asking him to take me on as an initiate. That kind of thing [succeeding] is the stuff of legend, yes. But I see many, many ways it can go wrong, and many misunderstandings that could get in the way of any real learning, and potentially render the overwhelming and unordinary experience of a mystical state quite frightening.
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I'm usually quite doubtful of this kind of thing
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stay doubtful

the only special ability of shamans is to be able to convince themselves that they do have special abilities
 
LOL^^

Shamanism, as in real shamanism, is probably the least pretentious thing I've ever encountered.

Care to elaborate?
 
I will elaborate. and I am talking about urban shahmanism and wiccans and the like

"look at me i'm so unique, lets go to wiccan tea parties and wear black dresses and pentagrams, I'm a shahman I walk into other worlds, talk to faeries, I choose to believe that because I'm so different and outside of society"
and pretty much that's what it's about, trying to attach yourself to something to make people have a pre judgement on you as being an expert on something that doesn't exist , it's like being an emo person or someone who wears them cowboy boots with the things on the back that cling because the love it when everybody in England see's it and thinks what a knob

And deep down everyone knows thats what it's about.

Fair do's to the natives of other countries in tribal states that don't have access to education.
 
Loving the eurocentric view of society here. lol.

So what makes eurocentric thought more valuable or intelligent than any other system of knowledge? We can easily discuss language and its function if you want to get into it.

Why don't you also explain what you meant by something that doesn't exist.

Also, how many indigenous shamans have you interacted with?

emo?!? :D
 
I like the way you convey a condescending tone even in text, something I would expect in a conversation like this.

I don't think it is any more intelligent, we don't think for our selves we are taught, and taught a lot of crap at that, but I must say that there is a massive difference between the truth and the imagination, and the fact of the matter is the imagination becomes real in extreme circumstances, in this case when taken hallucinogenic drugs, in my partner's aunt's case when she is at an angel healing seminar so in other words, when you are under extreme influence or under extreme "peer pressure", and what I'm saying is the truth is shitty and boring so it would be great to force a misconceived and not real heard of belief system upon yourself, in order to look unique and with the tone you just took I would understand more intelligent then someones else "we can EASILY discuss language and it's function" - had nothing to do what we was on about, what a twat.

I have not interacted with any indigenous shamans, (I'm sorry I'm not as rich and pretentious as you, to have a fulfilled life now and explore the fucking world, again with the condescending snobbishness I'm not talking about religion I'm talking about people like YOU!)
But I have read books on the subject, why would I need to meet one? they have different beliefs for different cultures, many are evil and cause suffering to other human beings, in the pagan days they were in the same way the christian church was, to presume power over the people, it's funny how our imaginations, something that has propelled our species into existence is also used to control us.
Oh how much damage religion has caused to society.

For some reason though you seem to be turning it onto indigenouse shahmanism and not urban shamansim which might I add is very commercial, don't you want to touch upon that? or was you vigilant to avoid that all together, and decide to belittle me for what little knowledge I have of the subject of shahmanism? it would be typical.

I must add as a finisher and a disclaimer:
I don't care for this debate, I don't hate ANYONE and I would be interested in listening to anyone of such belief because people as individuals are wonderful
the things I really do hate in the passionate sense of the word are:
organised religion itself but not the individuals within it
and those bollocks angel healing seminars, wish money into your life seminars
but I must add as much as I will respect your beliefs, beliefs are all the same.
 
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True and interesting to read, yet people tend to go to the doctors since that is proven to work.

People love to openly admit their unique beliefs to get sympathy or praise otherwise whats the point? They say for better understanding of the universe but for better understanding of the world as we know it then wouldn't pursuing a course in the sciences of life be more necessary for understanding, but no! "its understanding things no one can see except me and everyone else whoes been told in books to see these same things" lol. If a shaman who had no knowledge of science was to tell you his "ignorant knowledge" I'm sure he wouldn't be able to tell you about things such as organic compounds and genes, which are the truths of life and will instead tell you to burn ant nests (as I saw in a tv show about shamanism and indigenous medicine) because the ants spirit's are causing the illness of your baby when the baby had an infection and needed antibiotics.

I think urban shamanism, these fake, pretentious people take for granted the information they have readily available, for instance they know much better then they claim to believe but choose to take this path just because this information or pseudo information is available in our society.
For example, you went to school to learn the sciences of life but since we have occult bookshops selling books about shamanism one chooses to believe that over the education they have received on the other hand the cultures which practice shamanism do not have education or information readily available via the internet or books so they have no choice but to listen to this self proclaimed "healer" who has been taught this stuff from word of mouth, of uneducated people, who know no better then their local flora and imaginations.
 
I mentioned language because it's through language that we make "meaning", and also what you refer to as "truth", which in itself is a truly ridiculous word. I find your view to be incredibly eurocentric but it's okay if you want to believe that anglo-european societies are the ones privy to the "truth" or all of the information that's worth knowing.

It is entirely obvious that you're speaking from the sociocultural position of a person that has grown-up in the first world without (dare I say it) gaining an understanding of sociology or anthropology - you compare an ancient (there have been artefacts found that date back more than 1000 years) mode of being with an enormous body of thought to new age philosophies (and ridiculously, teenage-subcultures) that have been developed since the 60's to prey on the gullible - what on earth is an angel-healing-seminar?

Also, you try to take a position of non-belief, when you expound numerous beliefs throughout your prose. Anyone that has read my posts on here knows that I don't believe in anything, and even though it's going to burst your bubble, the Cofán shamans that I know don't purport to know anything either. Rather, life for them is an awe inspiring mystery, which ever-so-amusingly (given that they're just stupid indians), can be tied easily to modern day philosophy and theory.

My tone maybe interpreted as condescending, but I'm rather tired of people that have not involved themselves in other cultures (or conducted in depth study), making ignorant statements about something with which they have no experience.

Perhaps you'll tell me that you're better educated than my professor friends mentioned above because you've been educated in England, and even though they're published academics, they somehow "know" less than you because you're from the land of Cambridge.

You also asked about, I'm guessing, the Ayahuasca tourism of Perú - well, I'm not talking about Perú, and personally find everything that goes on in and around Iquitos to be an absolute joke. It's the place every hippy goes because they haven't been bothered to learn the language(s) necessary to travel to more isolated parts of the jungle to encounter an authentic experience. It's hardly an economic empire when a shaman charges $20 for a ceremony and this money goes toward supporting the fight against the multinational companies that are drilling for oil in the Colombian Amazon basin or for food for the pueblo.

But sure, make more and more assumptions. It's brilliant.
 
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I'm more interested in south america for the environment itself and it's amazing ecosystem.
Sorry but I don't understand how you can say that something made up thousands of years ago or what ever is valid with no proof.
It's so obviouse that these thing come with the early evolution of the imagination, something we would use to think beyond, think what could be under that rock "a grub" - Reward, "there could be something up that tree" - Reward, "there could be a god in the sky or planes of existence we can't see" - MASS DEATH AND GENOCIDE, WOMEN ARE WORTHLESS, BLACKS ARE SLAVES, GAYS ARE SICK AND ALL OTHER RELIGIONS ARE WRONG. now that last statement may refer to more organised religions, but it would be the same if shamanism made it to be more organised and any other religion.

It's just a choice to be believe nonsense, you are saying some bullocks about having a eurocentric view but seriously? going into another world through your brain? isn't it more likely to discover another world on the same plane of existence and no shaman is going to get us into space, I suppose if he imagines it and then you believe what he says he would.

btw angel healing seminars are people that gather together to meditate and get healed by angels and learn how to heal others, the people that go them go to so called "courses" where they learn this stuff and get in loads of dept whilst advancing to the next level, same with the money ones or the talking to animal ones. these people are getting prayed on, some of these so called leaders claimed to have healed their own cancer.
I love how stupid people are duped out of their money, their dignity just so someone can make money by exciting their imagination, the people maybe desperate but I'm sure that they like any other religion just wants to belief in this bullshit just so life seems that bit more interesting just like when I was a kid I wished pokemon was real :D but I was a child.......
 
Thanks for reiterating my points through your interpretation of what I've written.
 
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