Serotonergic psychedelics and inhibition of adverse physical effects.

[Probios]

Hi,

serotonergic psychedelics induce vasoconstriction, tremors, nausea and other sympatomimetic effects in varying degrees. I would like to know how you have dealt with them using chemicals.

To help me more directly, I wrote some more specific questions below.

I have thought about experimentation with DOC to gain intuitive knowledge how partial 5-HT 2A/C receptor agonists work and have heard that spasms and vasoconstriction can be a real problem even with medium doses (I was thinking about 2 mg orally). I have quite high blood pressure and my circulation isn't the best possible as my feet and fingers are nearly always cold..

My first propositions in dealing with these adverse coming up/sympatomimetic effects are
1. couple magnesium tablets (to decrease the possibility of spasms and maybe fine-tune NMDA related glutamatergic signaling)
2. 80 mg propapranolol (selective beta blocker to dilate bloodvessels and decrease tachycardia) downed with
3. one beer (to increase good mood and CNS signal/noise ratio) prior the DOC administration and
4. dealing with the anxiety with some (20 mg?) diazepam if necessary.

Is this OK? Does somebody have any references/experience to/with simultaneus usage of selective beta-blockers and psychedelics?

Only thing which I found was this:

"The hypertension and tachycardia associated with hallucinogens rarely require any treatment beyond a benzodiazepine. In the rare case of severe hypertension or tachycardia, treatment with nifedipine or nitroprusside may be indicated. Avoid beta-blockers because many of these drugs have both alpha- and beta-adrenergic effects. Isolated beta-blockade leads to unopposed alpha-adrenergic activity, worsening the hypertension and increasing mortality." http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic3407.htm

..which doesn't feel like a proven fact..

Any other ideas (exept cannabinoids, which are on the menu, naturally how one could combat vasoconstriction and other nasty shit?

I guess this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aprepitant would be the best drug to stop any nausea, but it could be a little too hard to obtain

 

[hugo24]

I screened most available RC's and I have not seen one which elevates BP/PR (excluding psychological causes) measured by a machine!This includes the "notorious" DOM,your DOC and all the 2C's.I did not measure however when on DMT,DOB (because never used it after an overdose).

I have normal BP/PR though,but circulation is a also a bit bad as you described (cold feet/fingers).

So if used in normal doses,the serotonergic psychedelics aren't causing a rise in BP.How to deal with psychologically caused cardiovaskular stress is another case,but a betablocker sounds like a good idea,because cutting the anxiety cycle could help,as is your suggestion of Valium.

Magnesium in doses of 400-600mg hepled me moderatly 2 or 3 times when dealing with muscle spasms.

 

[fastandbulbous]

Only thing which I found was this:

"The hypertension and tachycardia associated with hallucinogens rarely require any treatment beyond a benzodiazepine. In the rare case of severe hypertension or tachycardia, treatment with nifedipine or nitroprusside may be indicated. Avoid beta-blockers because many of these drugs have both alpha- and beta-adrenergic effects. Isolated beta-blockade leads to unopposed alpha-adrenergic activity, worsening the hypertension and increasing mortality." http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic3407.htm

..which doesn't feel like a proven fact..

Have a quick look through a physiology text book - the natural neurotransmitters/endocrine products with sympathetic activity show a combination of alpha & beta adrenergic activity so a selective beta only blockade would lead to peripheral vasoconstriction and hence a rise in BP (as well as possible hypoxia in peripheral tissue a la ergotism).

As far as I';m aware, only DOB shows any real problematic peripheral vasoconstriction; things like HBWR seeds can show the same effects but that's due to the cocktail of ergolines found in said seeds, some of which have pronounced ergotamine-like activity at active psychedelic doses. It all depends upon the alkaloidal mixture (ie ripeness) of the seeds in question

 

[egor]

F&B ( or anyone else for that matter), would there be any benefit of using a topical vasodialator like nitroglycerine paste or oral vasodialator sildafenil( viagra also contains small ammounts of nitric oxide which also increases blood flow) if you begin to have severe issues with circulation during a hbwr or other vasoconstricting chemical experiance to prevent total loss of blood flow and tissue death? Would either be helpful in (early) treatment of ergotism??

 

[hfrs]

"The hypertension and tachycardia associated with hallucinogens rarely require any treatment beyond a benzodiazepine. In the rare case of severe hypertension or tachycardia, treatment with nifedipine or nitroprusside may be indicated. Avoid beta-blockers because many of these drugs have both alpha- and beta-adrenergic effects. Isolated beta-blockade leads to unopposed alpha-adrenergic activity, worsening the hypertension and increasing mortality." http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic3407.htm

..which doesn't feel like a proven fact..

That is true about b-blockers. If I was going to try anything in this case, I would go with a calcium channel blocker, nifedipine is an L-type Ca channel blocker, Norvasc I believe is an R-type blocker.
I would not try nitroprusside as that would be more likely to increase heart rate.

Egor- yes, vasodilators are helpful in early ergotism. There are case reports that used nifedipine, nitroglycerin and various others.

 

[egor]

Any links, hfrs??

 

[Probios]

Fastandbulbous was right, as my emedicine link suggested previously.. But! If one would replace propranolol with carvedilol http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carvedilol there wouldn't be any problem because of the additional a1 adrenergic receptor antagonism. Also either clonidine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clonidine alone or with carvedilol would be quite interresting.
Has anyone ever tried, heard or have a hypothesis about what would happen if one would take serotonergic psychedelics and decrease sympathetic tone with a b1+b2+a1 antagonist and/or with a a2 agonist?
I guess this would be even worth of trying because in addition to the positive periferal effects, a1 antagonist and/or a2 agonist would probably affect the firing rate of locus ceruleus and therefore change the experience immensely, possibly even ending it? It would possibly also decrease amygdaloid stress/fear reactions making to possible trip more enjoyable.
In scientific context, these experiments would demonstrate quite easily the importance of adrenergic system in the psychedelic experience, which is not quite clear today, or is it?

 

[Probios]

fuck... "also decrease amygdaloid stress/fear reactions making the possible trip more enjoyable."

 

[nuke]

During my DOB overdose I administered a thiazide diuretic because I was experiencing problems with hypertension and pulse rate, it seemed to work okay.

Really, though, for most psychedelic drugs I've never needed anything more than a little valium on hand in case things get a little shifty. The halogenated DOxs are relatively safe, even if there are temporary circulation problems. I think the anxiety issues caused by psychedelics are mostly psychological and serotonergic.

Trimethobenzamide works just fine for the nausea, you can get it pretty easily just by going to a doctor and saying you have the stomach flu or something.

 

[hussness]

Would an atypical antipsychotic that blocks 5-HT2 (like olanzapine, risperidone, etc.) be capable of reversing all of the symptoms in case of an overdose without having to mess with other meds? I understand it would kill the trip, but in the case of an OD I don't think that would be a problem.

 

[nuke]

Would an atypical antipsychotic that blocks 5-HT2 (like olanzapine, risperidone, etc.) be capable of reversing all of the symptoms in case of an overdose without having to mess with other meds? I understand it would kill the trip, but in the case of an OD I don't think that would be a problem.

Kinda-sorta. The problem is similar to this: when you add a stimulant and a depressant, do the effects cancel out? The answer is almost always that the user gets more fucked up in these instances, rather than less fucked up. You'll be feeling less of the psychedelic effect, but you'll still probably feel reasonably intoxicated, and my worry is that the user would become further agitated or violent in this instance. My personal protocol is for the administration of a small amount of benzodiazepines, and if the user is still behaving problematically, to administer a smaller dose of an opiate. I think the results of this are less traumatic than that of an antipsychotic. I've never seen anyone need anything more than a benzodiazepine, but I have heard rare reports of people still behaving in a psychotic manner even after being administered them.

 

[theWorldWithin]

Here is a great idea, before adding other drugs with CNS activity to the cocktail, how about trying a very low dose of your RESEARCH chemical first. Titrate up on subsequent experiences and if you feel cardiovascular problems may occur then by all means please discontinue your experimentation with these substances.

I would highly disrecomend jumping in head first with a drug mashup.

 

[Dr. Beat]

Would an atypical antipsychotic that blocks 5-HT2 (like olanzapine, risperidone, etc.) be capable of reversing all of the symptoms in case of an overdose without having to mess with other meds? I understand it would kill the trip, but in the case of an OD I don't think that would be a problem.

i dont know what NUKE is talking about, because 3 times before i have been tripping way too hard, for way too long (all were over 8 hours, all my other trippings friends have straightened up, and i am starting to go mildly psychotic and piss of my friends), so i took rispiridone twice before to end trips, and chlorpromazine once to end another crazy long trip, and they ALL WORKED REALLY WELL, and it totally strighted my brain up in about 30-60 minutes, and i felt MUCH BETTER when the anti-psychotic hit.

so yes, anti-psychotics work VERY WELL to stop trips, and are safe (i have read they use them in hospitals to stop people tripping) and i always now have them on stand by when i trip incase something goes wrong and i need to straighten up to deal with the world with full facalties.

 

[nuke]

I'm glad they worked out well for you... In the few cases I'd seen them applied with risperidone things didn't work out so well (negative reactions, but no necessarily bad I suppose), and I recall F+B also saying that chlorpromazine worked very well, too. It's just my preference to avoid them unless necessary.

 

[Tribe]

with 2c's i have some weed to relax me and help pevent nausea. i cn't smoke to much, just a lil at a time and a few beers to quench any thirst and as another relaxant. it seems a nice combo, and then later when it starts to drop off or i'm comfortable after redoses, i can happily smoke weed, still feel alert, buzzy and trippy, but nicely stoned as well. when i need to comedown or need to sleep, i have a few valium if i have them(2x2mg tablets can normally get me to sleep nicely, 3x2mg if i'm still getting the stimulant effect strong). i like to stick to simple natural chems(thc and etOH :D) for relaxants and benzos for the end) i can quite happily face the next day with minimal bad effects

 

[qwe]

propranolol seems like a good choice for counteracting the sympa- effects. does anyone know if it has bad reactions with psychedelics?

 

[nuke]

It's a beta blocker, and as such is contraindicated (see F&Bs post above).

 

[cixelsyd]

seems to me you should just take some doc and enjoy, the body load isn't bad at all, smoke some weed to help with any bad side effects :D

 

[Xorkoth]

I agree. DOC is quite benign, at least for me. High blood pressure and heartbeat are not things I have experienced with it, in quite a number of trials. The only side effects I've had are light palm sweating (sometimes), light vasoconstriction in the legs (rarely), and slightly itchy skin.

The last time I used it, I actually got some severe leg vasoconstriction, which was painful and worrisome, but it passed without incident.

 

[Probios]

I tried 1 mg DOC with about 6 mg of carvedilol still in my my plasma. I think about 3 mg of the latter is enough to give me a noticeable effect. I didn't notice any significant peripheral vasoconstriction while I definitely could feel the effects of both drugs. I think I'm going to take 1 mg couple of times more, measure my heart rate and BP and compare them against the effects gained from the combination of DOC + carvedilol, and against the latter one alone.. For me carvedilol gives a pleasant, relaxed state of mind so I guess it could be excellent combined with psychedelics.

Since I don't know how the effects differ when larger doses are used, I can't recommend the combination yet, but (at least now when I haven't got my limbs chopped off yet I believe that carvedilol is not contraindicated with psychedelics because of the adrenergic alpha 1 antagonism possibly counteracting the increased sympathetic+serotonergic vasoconstiction.